Fall tapping

[Jebediah]

I am tempted to tap some trees this fall. Anybody tried this? Is it worthwhile? Presumably some sap runs when nights get cold...

Thank you!

[Moser's Maple]

poor sugar content, poor yields, and can lead to a diminished spring crop....this according to a conversation with mike Farrell last night

[spud]

I tapped some trees last fall and posted my numbers on the Fall Tapping Thread. One thing I noticed was the smaller trees 8-10 inch would only give 1% sugar at best. The large trees gave double the sugar at about 2%. I also noticed the smaller trees gave far less sap then the larger trees. I think I got something like 9 gallons of sap per tap last fall on the big trees. I feel that if I had high vacuum on those trees I would have gotten 2.7 time that amount. I base those numbers on some trees I tap in the spring using buckets. I concluded it would not be worth tapping smaller trees in the fall. I am going to fall tap 10 large trees this year trying a few other methods to see how much sap I can get. If things go well I will set up 100 taps the following fall using high vacuum and boil it on a little 2x6 rig. It's a lot of fun just playing around waiting until the real sugaring season comes. My wife thinks I'm nuts but my kids and dog think I'm ok.:)

Spud

[Jebediah]

Thank you. Yikes, now how do I pass the time until February?

[Jebediah]

Thanks for advice. Sorry, didn't realize there was a fall tapping thread already.

[maple flats]

If you chose to fall tap, those same trees should not be tapped next spring.

[spud]

If you chose to fall tap, those same trees should not be tapped next spring.

There is research being done to see if there is a way of tapping in the fall and using the same tap hole all the way to April. I fall tapped last year ( Nov 15 ) on some test trees and they ran until mid March. There was another Trader that tapped last fall and made 600+ gallons on 3000 taps. His plan was to ream the tap holes sometime in January and use a bigger spout. We never heard back from him after the spring season was over. I am convinced if a person fall tapped large trees only (24 inch or bigger) using high vacuum They could get 50-60 GPT. With sugaring seasons starting earlier research is hoping to create a spout or some other method that will allow a person to tap from Nov to April. A person would have to be a fool to think we have maximized on GPT using today's methods. Twenty five years ago we thought a .25 was outstanding production and now some are getting .75 GPT. The sky is the limit and you just have to believe. The definition of a failure is somebody that never tries.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

There is research being done to see if there is a way of tapping in the fall and using the same tap hole all the way to April.

As someone already said, there has been some research on various aspects of this and also several attempts by producers to tap in the fall. The reasons to not do it are typically low sap sugar, poor fall yields, and inability to keep the taphole productive through the spring (you don't want to put a second hole in the tree). Reaming hasn't generally proved to be a good approach either. Despite this, due to numerous requests (maybe it was just Spud asking a bunch of times) we are starting a study on this topic this fall. We will be comparing trees tapped in the fall using 5/16" CV2 against 1/4" clear spouts tapped in the fall and reamed to 5/16" clear spouts in the spring with trees tapped in the spring with 5/16" clear spouts. Will likely tap around Nov 1st. All will be on high-vacuum. Sorry.....no results until mid-April 2014.

[GeneralStark]

Yeah, I guess we never did hear back from Theron regarding his fall tapping experiment and how he then made out in the the spring. I believe the Branon's up in Franklin County have done some fall tapping with 1/4" spouts and then reaming and shifting to a 5/16" spout in the spring. Not sure if they are continuing to do this.

I would be curious to taste some fall syrup.

[MapleMark753]

We will be giving fall tapping a go this year, on trees that are not accessible for normal tapping season due to snow/ice/water barriers. Only about 150-175 mature, never tapped, total trees, some Sugars, Blacks, Silvers, and some what look like Silver/Red hybrids. Hope to average 3 to 4 gals of syrup a day, using RO to hopefully compensate some for what is typically low brix and volume. Will keep some records on sugar content, sap volume. If weather averages hold here, we should start in about 28 days or so. If it works out we'd tap these trees only in the fall, with a separate area for regular season. Good or bad, I can share results if any are interested.
take care,
Mark

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Let's just say that I haven't heard anything about Theron doing it this Fall!

[spud]

As someone already said, there has been some research on various aspects of this and also several attempts by producers to tap in the fall. The reasons to not do it are typically low sap sugar, poor fall yields, and inability to keep the taphole productive through the spring (you don't want to put a second hole in the tree). Reaming hasn't generally proved to be a good approach either. Despite this, due to numerous requests (maybe it was just Spud asking a bunch of times) we are starting a study on this topic this fall. We will be comparing trees tapped in the fall using 5/16" CV2 against 1/4" clear spouts tapped in the fall and reamed to 5/16" clear spouts in the spring with trees tapped in the spring with 5/16" clear spouts. Will likely tap around Nov 1st. All will be on high-vacuum. Sorry.....no results until mid-April 2014.

Doc,

I got to believe you will muster up some sap sucking devise in your lab that will help us all get 60 GPT in the future. I have full faith in you and can't wait to see your results. If the results turn out to be favorable could you include my name in it even though I had nothing to do with it?:lol:

Spud

[Clarkfield Farms]

Sorry, the standard Contract is that you get the blame for wasting taxpayer's money if it doesn't work out, and they only use your initials if it DOES. And even then, you're only a footnote. :D

[Jebediah]

Think I'm going to do it, can't resist. Just a few trees, to see what happens. Wife will be overjoyed...

[220 maple]

Thompson's Tree Farm,

I agree if it did not work for Theron "Big Sap Warning" in Pa. I believe I would not consider fall tapping. I'm guessing Theron's experiment was a big failure, rumor has it that it was, and just the fact that Theron never posted anything about his fall tapping should be proof enough that it's not a good idea.

Mark 220 Maple

[PATheron]

220- The fall tapping will work but its pretty much like the studies have shown. There is less sap and it has less sugar, everything is less robust. My goal was to see if I could get the holes to go the whole way Thinking maybe the use of the new checkvalves could make a big difference but it didn't work in that regard. By the time the real season was kicked in they weren't running good. So I didn't really come up with anything new. I tried and I had fun but probly in the future Im thinking for me the best bet is to spend the fall time getting really ready for the spring season and tap the first of January with everything really streamlined and ready. The reason I quit posting on this site is that I was tired of everyone beating each other up over stuff. Some guy would come on here not knowing anything and ask if it would be ok to use a sheetrock pail for sap and instead of saying, " maybe you ought to try to find something a little better", and just try to guide the guy people come on here and basically call him a communist. Im not going to participate in all that. Theres a lot of good people on this site, but theres a certain level of bs on here I don't want to get cought up in. Theron

[jason grossman]

ditto for me also theron. sometimes the loudest voices are not the best. there is starting to be way too much I'm the greatest do what I say and less can I help you have a good experience.

[spud]

PATheron,

It's great to hear from you again. Last fall as you know I did some fall tapping experiments. Although my experiment consisted of only 20 trees I learned a lot. Yes low sugar was an issue. What I found was smaller trees did not run much at all. I had concluded that large trees were the only trees worth tapping in the fall (at least in my woods). We had shared some PM together talking about your experiment because I had great interest in what you were doing. The last time we talked you said you tapped 3000 trees and had made 600 gallons so far. You went on to say that your plan was to ream the tap holes after January 1st when it was cold outside. The thought was (and correct me if I'm wrong) that if you shaved a small portion of the inner wall of the tap hole (ream) and removed whatever bacteria there was you might still be able to have a very good spring season. I never heard back from you saying that you reamed the holes and I am wondering if you did? Would you be willing to share some of the details like tree size, vacuum levels, starting date, total gallons made in fall and then in spring, total taps, Size spouts in fall verses size spouts in spring and what kind of spouts used. There are some on Trader that would be very interested in what you have to say. Ya there will always be those who bash you for your experiment but who cares. Loser's are those that never try because they are afraid to fail. Your experiment last fall was a big thing because of the amount of taps you had. It takes a guy with a real set of ball's to do what you did. My hats off to you and I wish you the best in the future.

Spud

[unc23win]

I too am very interested in hearing more about Theron's fall tapping especially since he is closer to me geographically. I am also interested to know whether or not you guys in Vermont like Spud would maybe have a better opportunity to fall tap based on climate. For instance I am right on the NY border and I know people downsate have an earlier spring season maybe it is is reversed in the fall? So that more northern people will have a better opportunity in the fall? Just thinking out loud.

[jrgagne99]

Having also tapped a few trees last fall, I'm also interested in your results, PATheron!

[PATheron]

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[PATheron]

Guys- Don't know what I was doing wrong but I wrote out a bunch of stuff twice and it didn't take. What I was going to say is that the fall stuff was neat but Im thinking for most of us well make the most money focusing on the fundamentals and making more syrup in the spring. I know its that way for me. I don't think at this point theres anyway the holes will go the whole way good. I really thougth with the checkvalves it might be possible if everything was sanitary enough but they just wont go through basically a whole season in the fall and then one in the spring at least not for me. I didn't keep exact numbers of everything but everything in the fall seemed about half of spring. If you get a gallon per tap per day in spring figure a half gallon per tap per day in fall. If no freeze last night you get one percent sap if it froze last night one and half percent sap. On the plus side the syrup in just fine tasting. Good syrup. Also if you hook the trees up to a ring pump and put 25 inches of vacuum they will just start running and not stop just like in spring. In my situation Im just going to keep slowly adding taps and focus on the fundamentals. Right now all fall Ive been running the vac pump and just slowly sweeping through the woods fixing one line at a time making it perfect and getting it ready for spring. I know there will be a few more problems when I tap but Ill have it real close to right before hand and itll make an easier more productive season and I think that will make me the most money. Anyway that was my experience. Even with my fall and spring together there were people that beat me just in the spring handily so that tells me to just do a better job in the spring. Theres so many variables that all you can really do is get a feel for what the right thing to do is I think. The weather varies everywhere, different exposure, etc, so I think everyone has to just kind of feel out what the best thing is to do personally. I do think we probly all need to just focus more on the fundamentals. High vac, mainlines that go down hill, try not to miss any sap, all that. Theron

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Well said!

[spud]

Today I decided to tap a few large maples just to see how the sap would flow this fall. The trees I tapped are between 24-32 inches. These trees did get tapped the last two springs and the sugar was always above 2.5% and sometimes hitting 3.5%. I want to see what kind of sugar content I can get in the fall. Last falls test trees were between 1.7-2.0% on the big trees and only 0.7-1.0% on the small trees. I will not be using any vacuum on any of the test trees. Last night it went down to 16 degrees and tonight will be cold again. By mid week it should hit 50 degrees and the sap should run. The wife thinks I'm nuts.:)

Spud

[jrgagne99]

Good luck Spud. Keep us posted on your results!

[unc23win]

Good luck Spud I am sure you will keep good records and give us some good feedback. If I didn't have 100 other things to do to get ready for spring I would try some myself especially with the time change ugh dark at 5:30 doesn't allow for much outside work after work.

[spud]

Today the sap is running well and I have gotten one gallon per tap so far. The sap tested 1.8%. The spouts were put in on the south/east side of each tree.

Spud

[unc23win]

Cool news Spud. When did you tap the trees? All on gravity right?

[spud]

I tapped the trees on the 4th of November. The trees are on gravity (buckets). Today was the first day the sap ran. I wound up getting 1 1/2 gallons of sap today per tap hole. I want to see if I can get 15 gallons by New Years. I plan to ream the holes after the New Year in hopes of getting at least 10 more gallons in the early spring. If I can get 25 total gallons on gravity I think it is safe to say I would have gotten 50-60 gallons using high vacuum. Two years ago I had 100 taps on gravity and I found that my high vacuum trees gave 2.7 times as much sap as the gravity trees. If I should get 25 on gravity It would be the same as getting 67.5 gallons on high vacuum. Even with sap testing at 1.8% that would still be 1.42 gallons of syrup per tap. I am convinced in the years to come maple research will figure out a way of getting 1+ gallons of syrup per tap hole. I think over sized tubing along with high vacuum and check valves will get the high numbers I am looking for. I also think there might be something you could feed your trees to create higher sugar. Some sort of maple tree on steroids yet not harming the tree might be a thing of the future.

Spud

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Spud I love your enthusiasm for 1+ gal per tap. I am real curious if you can find a way to make this work while not harming the trees. I dream of 1+ gal per tap hole. More power to you.

Ben

[Jebediah]

I tapped exactly one tree, in eastern MA. No sap yet. Only two freezing nights. Fun to check the bucket, though. Wife even went with me to check today.

[spud]

I tapped exactly one tree, in eastern MA. No sap yet. Only two freezing nights. Fun to check the bucket, though. Wife even went with me to check today.

What size tree did you tap? What side of the tree did you tap? I like to keep my Fall tap holes on the South/East side of the trees because the day's are getting shorter and I am trying to have as much sunlight hit the tap hole side. When you do get some sap will you test it for sugar? Good luck to you.

Spud

[Jebediah]

Good luck to you also. One tap on south side of tree. Have a sugar-determining "float" apparatus, but don't know how to use properly. I am a novice. Also don't know whether this float thing is suitable for sap, or for syrup. Obviously I need to do some reading.

[Jebediah]

Tree is maybe 20 inch

[opiejudd]

I have an idea on fall tapping. What if you only tapped an inch deep or so for the fall. Then come spring tapping you tap the same hole deeper to the standard depth.

[spud]

I have an idea on fall tapping. What if you only tapped an inch deep or so for the fall. Then come spring tapping you tap the same hole deeper to the standard depth.

I did this last fall only I reamed the holes and went deeper. The sap ran for a while but did dry up before the spring season was over. Had these trees been on high vacuum I think I would have gotten one gallon of syrup per tap hole. This fall I already have four gallons of sap per tap hole with more to come by the end of the week. If these trees were on high vacuum I may have gotten 2.5 times that amount giving me 10 gallons so far this fall. The sap is still testing 1.8%.

Spud

[opiejudd]

I did this last fall only I reamed the holes and went deeper. The sap ran for a while but did dry up before the spring season was over. Had these trees been on high vacuum I think I would have gotten one gallon of syrup per tap hole. This fall I already have four gallons of sap per tap hole with more to come by the end of the week. If these trees were on high vacuum I may have gotten 2.5 times that amount giving me 10 gallons so far this fall. The sap is still testing 1.8%.

Spud

I figured it had been thought of. That's cool your getting that much sap. I will be keeping an eye on this thread. I see a bigger wood shed in our future if this becomes a break through in sugaring.

[jrgagne99]

This fall I already have four gallons of sap per tap hole with more to come by the end of the week. If these trees were on high vacuum I may have gotten 2.5 times that amount giving me 10 gallons so far this fall. The sap is still testing 1.8%.

I feel like the weather this fall has been pretty favorable for sap flow, no?

[spud]

This fall has been real good for sap flow so far. The sap is running today and I should be over 5 gallons per tap by day's end. The sap tested 1.8% today. Looks like we should get more sap for the next couple of days.

Spud

[unc23win]

That's some good news right there Spud 5 gallons per tap and you tapped the 4th that doesn't sound bad at all. How long you think they will run?

[lpakiz]

Had to drill a hole in a maple to anchor a mainline extension. Sap was RUNNING today in Wisconsin....

[spud]

That's some good news right there Spud 5 gallons per tap and you tapped the 4th that doesn't sound bad at all. How long you think they will run?

I plan to keep these spouts in the trees until March 1st. After that I will ream the holes and put new spouts in to finish out the spring sugaring season. I got another gallon today and it is only noon. Sap is still running good and I plan to get a lot more in the weeks to come.

Spud

[Don(MI)]

Spud,

How did things end up for you? Are you shut down now and how many gallons made? Very curious as I would like to try this next fall. Thanks!

[spud]

Spud,

How did things end up for you? Are you shut down now and how many gallons made? Very curious as I would like to try this next fall. Thanks!

I am up to 8 gallons so far with one month to go. Keep in mind though if I had high vacuum to these trees it would be 2.5 times that amount which is 20 gallons. The sap still is testing at 1.8%. I have a good friend of mine that hunts on my land. Every time he comes to hunt he's checking out my buckets. At first he thought I was crazy but now he's beginning to wonder if I'm on to something. If I can reach 10 gallons and then times that by 2.5 that would give me half a gallon of syrup per tap. The big question is going to be will I get another half gallon in the spring on the same tap holes just reamed out? Time will tell.

Spud

[Thad Blaisdell]

Just remember that with high vacuum the sugar will drop. What you may have to do is tap a couple of trees with buckets to see the difference in sugar.

[spud]

Just remember that with high vacuum the sugar will drop. What you may have to do is tap a couple of trees with buckets to see the difference in sugar.

Thad,

I was always lead to believe that sugar went down with high vacuum also. I think I read something from PMRC or Cornell a while back saying the sugar does not drop with high vacuum. Maybe Dr. Tim could share his thought's on this.

Spud

[rgmaple]

How does the syrup taste?

[Don(MI)]

Thanks for the reply Spud..

After this whole thread, and reading Spud's results, well....I am HOOKED!

I have to try this, only I want to on my place behind the house, on trees that we never tap for the Spring run. So there would be no risk involved with the following spring.

This is extreme encouragement for me. I can't imagine being able to make syrup at my place, as we always tap the woods at my grandpas farm and it leaves no time for any additional trees on other properties.

Best part is.....I named my little 28 acres of property.. "Maple Ridge" because of all the Maples on my place. Even at 1.8% I will still make syrup!!!!

[DrTimPerkins]

I think I read something from PMRC or Cornell a while back saying the sugar does not drop with high vacuum. Maybe Dr. Tim could share his thought's on this.

It depends upon the phase of flow. Initially upon thawing the sap coming from the tree (whether the tree is on gravity or vacuum) will flow down, and the sap sugar content will be the same regardless of gravity or vacuum. After a period of time without a refreeze, more and more of the sap from trees on vacuum will be from "vacuum-induced flow", which means the soil water is being pulled up from the soil through the tree and out the taphole. During this time the sap will begin to very slowly drop in sugar content. However.....at that point trees on gravity will have stopped running altogether, so a little less sugar is far better than no sugar at all, and the RO will pretty well take care of the low sugar content of the sap in short order. In very long extended flow, the sap sugar will become even more diluted. Overall, in most seasons, the difference in sugar content will tend to be only slight-moderate depending upon the flow dynamics (lots of freezes or long extended thaws).

[rgmaple]

What does the Fall season maple syrup taste like to you? Good enough for you to use on your pancakes? I had some and it didn't taste very good at all.

[spud]

What does the Fall season maple syrup taste like to you? Good enough for you to use on your pancakes? I had some and it didn't taste very good at all.

At this time I am not boiling my Fall Sap. Last fall I boiled some and the taste is great. There really is no difference except a slight carmel taste is what I noticed. There are other Traders that have posted fall syrup as being the same as spring syrup. I have been experimenting on Fall Tapping for two years now. What I have found was the smaller trees do not produce enough sap to make it worth your while. Although the bigger trees seem to run very good and my sugar is testing 1.8% so far this Fall. The same big trees test 2.5+ in the spring. I do plan to tap a few hundred trees in the Fall starting next season just for fun. If you have some spare trees that you can tap in the fall it could be a lot of fun for your family. The trees I plan to tap in the fall do not get tapped in the spring. These trees are in an area that would require major sap ladders in the spring. In the Fall though I can gather the sap with my 4-wheeler but still have these trees on high vacuum. I plan to run a mini releaser to these trees. I am not doing this for the money but just for some fall time fun.

Spud

[Jebediah]

Not a single drop of sap in my test bucket...

[Jebediah]

My guess is that my trees are saving up for a massive Spring run.

[mountainvan]

I couldn't wait either. Tapped one tree Monday late afternoon. Tested sap with my Hanna digital refractometer, 2.4% sugar. Collected 1 gallon today and sap was flowing again today. Should have enough for a stove boil this weekend.

[DrTimPerkins]

Should have enough for a stove boil this weekend.

Fresh syrup for Christmas morning. Nice.

[spud]

I was able to get one gallon of sap per tap in the last 24 hours. Because of freezing temps a week ago the sugar content has gone up to 2.4%. It had been 1.8 until now. So far Fall Tapping (the big trees is going real well). I still have 3 weeks to go before the Fall Tapping is over.

Spud

[unc23win]

That is awesome news Spud 2.4%. Are you past 10 gallons of sap per tap yet?

[spud]

I am up to 9 gallons so far with an average of 1.9% sap. If I can hit 12 gallons that would be .75 per tap if I was on high vacuum.

Spud

[Birddog]

I don't mean to hijack your conversation but I find this really interesting. It occurred to me that the timing of when you would start tapping in the fall is unclear to me. Do you start when it first starts freezing at night? I also wonder if any properties other than lower sugar content occur with fall Sap. Have you boiled it down to syrup to taste test? Please keep the updates coming, I might have to try this next fall.


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[Birddog]

I just reread Spuds earlier post and described how the syrup tasted - no difference other than color. So sounds same other than color. Still not sure when you would tap?


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[spud]

I just reread Spuds earlier post and described how the syrup tasted - no difference other than color. So sounds same other than color. Still not sure when you would tap?


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Larry,

Here in my area the best time to Fall tap would be around November 1st. All the leaves have to come off and there has to be some freezing nights to get things started. The color and taste of the syrup in the fall is no different then in the spring. The reason My fall syrup (last fall) tasted a little carmel like was because it was not boiled in an evaporator. If Fall tapping is something you might try there is a couple of things you should do.

1) Tap the South or South/East side of the tree.
2) Use a 1/4 inch spout if you plan to ream your holes in the spring.
3) Don't ream your holes until they are 12-14 weeks old. And then use CV2 spouts.
4) Tap November 1st.
5) Only tap trees that are 18 inch or bigger. The sugar and sap production is to low on smaller trees (in my woods anyway).
6) Have fun and don't mind the neighbors when they look at you funny.:confused:

Spud

[Birddog]

Thanks Spud. I wish I would have tried it this year! Already have 2 feet of snow and about -5 F tonight so would probably be done by now.

Thanks again!

[pdr]

Located in western NY. Started tapping with cv1's Monday and ended up with approx. 1000 by midday Thursday. Size of trees and slope faces run the gamut. Mix is about 25% reds. Sap ran well Wednesday am thru Thursday evening. A few larger trees ran 2+% for a very short time Monday, but most of the run steadily decreased from approx 1.5% to 1.1% at freeze-up. Produced approximately 1950 gal. of sap. After dealing with a few equipment issues, boiled last night. Syrup is just below medium amber and taste is excellent. Heading off to the couch for a nap. Will tap the remaining trees just before the next thaw - which I hope is still a week or two away.

[jimsudz]

pdr, where you located in western NY, looking to get my maple fix. If your close,and you don't mind company I may look you up and check out your operation next time you boil .

[pdr]

Jimsudz, we're in east central Cattaraugus County about an hour's drive from you - and I've never heard of a producer who didn't welcome company! I saw you phone # on the directory web page, and I'll try to touch base with you soon. I'm in your neck-o-the-woods now and then and would love to take a peek at your set-up as well - always so much to learn. Unfortunately, according to the boys-at-the-bureau, it doesn't look like mother nature will offer a warm-up anytime soon. (Unlike last year when the sap would have run about 30 days in Nov. and Dec.) We tapped early this year because the spring season last year was almost a no-show for those of us at higher elevations and we didn't want to risk a repeat non-performance. No doubt, we're putting "In CV's We Trust" to the test!

[pdr]

First, like all of us in this crazy business, my thoughts are with everyone adversely affected by the ice and floods - especially my fellow early tapper Spud. That said, I'm glad to report during the warm-up here, the sap ran well. Resumed tapping Thursday (12/19) as temp hit 40F in mid-afternoon. Maybe 100 gal. sap during those 4-5 hours. Temp. hit 32F at midnight but was up to low 40's by daybreak Friday. Vacuum pump back on at 6:30 am Friday and tapped another 250 or so in the deep snow and light rain. Sap flow steadily increased and the temp stayed in 40's Friday nite and headed into the 50's Saturday. In heavy rain, I tapped the final 150 or so Saturday am. Sap flow remained constant thru 9 am Sunday when I had to shut off the vacuum pump for good to run, rinse and wash the R.O. (Will finally have separate electrical service for the R.O. installed before the next run!). Boiled during the day Sunday and made approx 40 gal., (excellent flavor, but like all of us, I'm biased!) Lost a total of about 12 hours of vacuum time during the run - and during which the sap just drizzled vs. 50-100 gal. per hr. with the pump on. Sap began at 1.9 % and slowly decreased to 1.0% Saturday mid-day. It then increased to 1.2% thru Sunday am. Final check of the drizzle on Sunday evening was 0.8 %. Sap total was approx 36oo gal. and would have been about 4400 gal with continuous vacuum. My best estimate is that the total would have been 3.5 gal of sap per tap had we been fully tapped at the beginning of the run. Local D&G dealer Bob Beil and his step-son Bill got wind that we were boiling and stopped by for awhile. They helped Dad stoke the fire, sampled the brew and mumbled more than once "Boiling before Christmas ... it just ain't right ..." Until the next run, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

[DrTimPerkins]

I was always lead to believe that sugar went down with high vacuum also. I think I read something from PMRC or Cornell a while back saying the sugar does not drop with high vacuum. Maybe Dr. Tim could share his thought's on this.

I think I've addressed this before, but in general, early in the flow cycle the sugar content will be the same whether on vacuum or gravity. When flow stops in gravity collection, with vacuum you're into what we call "vacuum-induced flow". At that point the sap sugar content will very slowly start to drop in vacuum collection (but you're getting little or no sap from gravity collection at that point). How much the sugar content drops off depends largely upon how long the sap runs (on vacuum) without a freeze. Freezing stimulates both the uptake of water into the tree and the conversion of starch into sugar.

[pdr]

Third run and boil under our belts! Just over 1 gallon per tap Saturday afternoon thru yesterday (Sunday) - approx 1600 gal from approx. 1500 taps. Temp hit 43F mid-afternoon Sat. and dropped to upper 30's Sat. nite thru Sun afternoon. Sap is crystal clear and began at 1.5%, went up to 1.6 and tailed off to 1.4. Syrup is medium, flavor is excellent. With all the cold temps, I'm reasonably confident the CV's will produce into April. Btw, I have one tree tapped (bucket) near the barn - got less than a pint from it. Spud, hope clean-up goes ok and I'm wondering if your test trees survived the storm ...

[spud]

Third run and boil under our belts! Just over 1 gallon per tap Saturday afternoon thru yesterday (Sunday) - approx 1600 gal from approx. 1500 taps. Temp hit 43F mid-afternoon Sat. and dropped to upper 30's Sat. nite thru Sun afternoon. Sap is crystal clear and began at 1.5%, went up to 1.6 and tailed off to 1.4. Syrup is medium, flavor is excellent. With all the cold temps, I'm reasonably confident the CV's will produce into April. Btw, I have one tree tapped (bucket) near the barn - got less than a pint from it. Spud, hope clean-up goes ok and I'm wondering if your test trees survived the storm ...

I wound up getting 23.75 GPT in my Fall Tapping. My average sugar was 1.9% so I got .5GPT for the Fall. I plan to ream the holes Feb 15th to see how much more I will get in the spring. I will keep you posted. I wish you the best.

Spud

[jimsudz]

hey pdr, I didn't receive a call. Thought about reaching out to you on Saturday.

[pdr]

Not much of a January thaw this past weekend, but enough for our 4th run & boil since tapping 1st week in December. Sap yield was about 2.6 gpt. at a constant 1.5% Saturday, no run Sunday, and began at 1.7% Monday morning and finished at 1.4%Tuesday mid-day. The six week total is approximately 6.5 gpt averaging 1.5%. The syrup is medium and flavor is excellent. Long-range forecast is not promising for any significant thaw for at least the next six weeks. Sure hope they're wrong. (Although the pervasive cold should ensure the cv1's perform well into April). Hope this helps those of you contemplating tapping early next season. No question we will tap early again - unless of course we find the cv's under-perform this spring.

[Lethalbowman]

I don't think I would attempt to tap any of the trees back in my woods in November here in Northern Michigan as my resident Black Bears would have a field day with any collecting device it came across. It seems they don't begin the long winters nap until mid December. 8393

[pdr]

Fifth run and boil this past weekend 2/21-2/23. CV's seemed to perform ok. High temp mostly in upper 30's, very windy most of the time. Approx. 1.75 gpt. Sugar content mostly 1.4% but ended up at 1.7% for the final few hours of the run. More sugar sand than usual. Grades right on medium amber. Flavor is excellent. Looks like it'll be at least two weeks 'til the next thaw. Hope everybody has a great season!

[pdr]

2 day run 3/09-3-10. Temp hit 40's both days. Still 1-2 ft. of snow in the woods. Sixth boil since 1st wk in Dec. CV1's still performing well as far as I can tell, i.e. 1.5 gpt. Sugar ranged from 1.8-2.2%. Syrup is medium and has good flavor. Will be glad when the frost is out of the ground!

[pdr]

Seventh run 3/14 - 3/15, about 1.1 gpt in approx. 20 hrs., temp in low 40's by mid-afternoon Fri. and steadily dropped to 30 by mid-day Sat. Snow pack still 1-2 ft. Sugar 2.0-2.2, syrup medium amber. After approx. 13 weeks CV's still performing well - knock on wood!

[pdr]

Eighth run 3/18 & 3/19, about 1.25 gpt, mostly on 3/19. Temp mostly in the 30's. Snow pack still 1 -1.5 ft. on 90% of trees. Sugar 2.2-2.1, syrup medium amber. After approx. 14 weeks, CV1's still performing well!

[220 maple]

pdr,
Will we see you at the State Fair? Jean wants us to be an established Maple Assoc. and expects us to have a much larger display promoting Maple

Mark 220 Maple

[pdr]

Ninth run on 3/21 & 3/22 was a short one and yielded only .95 gpt. Again, temp only in the 30's. Ground still frozen and snow pack still averaging 1 ft. on 90% of trees. Sap begins a little cloudy, but quickly becomes crystal clear. Sugar 2.2-2.1. Syrup medium amber, but as close to light as it can get without being light. Looks like some good runs coming up in the next couple of weeks. After 15 weeks the CV1's are still performing well. Should make it to the end of the season with no obvious reduction in flow. I'll post a final report when the releaser has gasped its last.

Hey, Mark, good to hear from you. Don't know about working the SF yet - never do until May or June. Either way, I'll be there and look forward to seeing you. Hope the WV Association is coming together. If I can figure out this PM function, I'll be in touch! As you can see, the fall tapping experiment is working quite well. Brutal winter, late spring - I'm glad I started early. Hope your season has gone well.

[GeneralStark]

And???......

[GeneralStark]

As someone already said, there has been some research on various aspects of this and also several attempts by producers to tap in the fall. The reasons to not do it are typically low sap sugar, poor fall yields, and inability to keep the taphole productive through the spring (you don't want to put a second hole in the tree). Reaming hasn't generally proved to be a good approach either. Despite this, due to numerous requests (maybe it was just Spud asking a bunch of times) we are starting a study on this topic this fall. We will be comparing trees tapped in the fall using 5/16" CV2 against 1/4" clear spouts tapped in the fall and reamed to 5/16" clear spouts in the spring with trees tapped in the spring with 5/16" clear spouts. Will likely tap around Nov 1st. All will be on high-vacuum. Sorry.....no results until mid-April 2014.

And???... Inquiring minds.

[DrTimPerkins]

And???... Inquiring minds.

That's an easy one from my side. Didn't do it. Three reasons.....

1. We had 2 other new major, multi-year funded projects that we started deploying this fall (funding didn't start until October, so we couldn't begin the work until that time) and so were too busy to deal with one more thing.

2. This project is an unfunded study, so to do it would have meant reducing resources (vacuum chambers and personnel) from studies that were funded (which just isn't going to happen).

3. There was no way with our current setup to avoid having to check the chambers daily whenever the sap ran....even on weekends and holidays. This meant that I would have had to be ready to measure chambers every day from November 1 until the end of the sugaring season. It is bad enough to have to check chambers every day throughout the spring sugaring season. So upon reflection, I said ...no freaking way am I going to do that.

So....nothing to report at the present time, except that I have figured out a way to do it that is far less labor intensive and intrusive to my personal time (as it is between January and today I have over 200 hours of uncompensated overtime), but it's going to require about $7k in new vacuum chambers (of a size large enough that I can put out and measure once at the end of the fall period and once again at the end of the spring period). I already have 10 of these we had purchased for another study, but will need 14 more in order to have at least 8 replicate chambers per treatment (for statistical purposes). If I have enough discretionary funds at the end of the current fiscal year, I will purchase these. If not....it'll have to wait. It is definitely something I am quite interested in....even more so given some results from other work we've been doing (more on that at a later time).

So I'll end with a question....anyone want to "sponsor" a large vacuum chamber at $507 each?

[GeneralStark]

Did another "fall tapper" bite the dust, or are those CV2s still going?

[pdr]

I ended up with .376 gpt. Would have exceeded .4gpt if not for a couple of equipment issues. Flow dropped in the second week of April and made ropey syrup. I pulled the plug at the same time everyone else did in the southern tier of western ny. Very satisfied with the results and will certainly "tap early" next season - in November if possible. I have to say, although it's not for everyone, we very much enjoyed boiling during the holiday season.

[220 maple]

pdr,

Jean and Cindy said Hi, We all are looking forward to seeing you at the State Fair, Jean is already in planning mode and is hoping we will have a dripping tap to go along with our bucket display! Robert Reed and his father is working on the dripping tap. I'm sure you remember Robert from last summer.

Mark 220 Maple

[GeneralStark]

I ended up with .376 gpt. Would have exceeded .4gpt if not for a couple of equipment issues. Flow dropped in the second week of April and made ropey syrup. I pulled the plug at the same time everyone else did in the southern tier of western ny. Very satisfied with the results and will certainly "tap early" next season - in November if possible. I have to say, although it's not for everyone, we very much enjoyed boiling during the holiday season.

SO I guess the question is still whether or not it is worth it. Did you make more syrup than you would have if you had tapped in Feb.? Is this the first year tapping this woods? If not, what has your production been like in the past. I was at .38 gpt this year and I didn't get fully tapped until late March. I suspect I could have hit .5 if I had all my taps in by the Feb. thaw.

Do you keep your vac. pump on all the time?

[spud]

Did another "fall tapper" bite the dust, or are those CV2s still going?

I reamed my holes and used the new CV spouts on Feb 15th. Pryer to that I had gotten 23.75 GPT with a 1.9% sugar. After Feb 15th I got another 8.25 gallons but the sugar average went up to 3.5%. Thats a little over .8GPT for the season using no vacuum. Had I used high vacuum I would have gotten over a gallon per tap for sure. If a person tapped only large maples (36 inch maybe) on Nov 15th and ran high vac they should make 1-1.5 gallons per tap. They would have to use CV spouts or new drops and spouts. I do plan to Fall tap again next year just for fun. I am looking to buy a small evaporator just for Fall tapping. I would like to get a sap sucker so I don't have to run my big pump.

Spud

[GeneralStark]

Spud - Those are interesting numbers. You say you reamed the holes on Feb. 15th? Then used CV2s in those same tap holes? What did you use before? Was this with buckets or gravity tubing? If with buckets why CV2s?

Are these large trees open grown?

[spud]

Spud - Those are interesting numbers. You say you reamed the holes on Feb. 15th? Then used CV2s in those same tap holes? What did you use before? Was this with buckets or gravity tubing? If with buckets why CV2s?

Are these large trees open grown?

I started some big trees with 1/4 inch spouts and others with 5/16 smart spouts. I then switched to CV spouts on some and 5/16 spouts on others. I used tubing into a bucket on the trees with the CV spouts. Because I did not check trees everyday I did not want sap filling a bucket and then going back into the tap hole infecting it. If a person tapped large trees and had a South/East setting I think you would do well. Like I have said in past post I just do fall tapping for fun. I am still not sure if I would tap a whole woods in the fall but maybe just a section.

Spud

[WestfordSugarworks]

Just read through every fall tapping thread I could find on Maple Trader, the earliest dating back 10 years ago to 2005. Hoping to get this thread going again as fall approaches.

I understand that fall tapping is nothing new. Many people have tried it many times and there are some who have said that some producers do tap in the fall, year after year. Some producers like Spud and PAtheron have tapped in the fall with 1/4" spouts and reamed out the hole to 5/16" with a 5/16" spout as the spring season approaches. This method has been used since at least 10 years ago by at least one producer in Canada, according to this thread. http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?1168-Fall-time-tapping/page3&highlight=Fall+tapping. I think that 1/4" spouts first came out in 2004.

It seems that there are a lot of potential positive outcomes to tapping in the fall using the method described above. Increased total sap yields (throughout the year) is the best advantage in my opinion. Also, your tubing system is likely to be more leak free by the time traditional big sap runs come in March/April, further increasing your yields. Likely, there would be little to no snow during the fall season, allowing fewer people to do more work as they can move more quickly through the woods. In the context of tourism, I believe people would love to take their extended family from outside the maple producing region to a working sugarhouse during the holidays. So increased retail sales could be another positive outcome. Also, for producers that hire help every year, offering employment from the fall through the spring could be a way to get workers that are more reliable and return year after year. I know that it can be tough to find reliable help for just a few months per year. Workers could tap, walk lines, boil etc, in the fall and then pull out small spouts and ream out trees and start again in the spring. Depending on the size of the operation, tapping in the fall could make the maple season last from November (begin fall tapping) through May (pulling spouts).

Although this leads away from the above described method of harvesting sap from a tree from fall through spring, an operation that has more taps than they can handle during the traditional spring season could potentially tap one sugarbush in the fall and tap another/others in the spring. This way they could hire less/no outside help and make more syrup than they could just by tapping in spring. Similarly, and i'm not sure if Organic Certifiers would actually allow this, you could have one tubing system that goes to all 9"+ trees (suitable for tapping under Vermont Organic Standards), and another tubing system that goes to trees that cannot be tapped under Organic (under 9"). In the fall you could harvest sap from the tubing system that goes to the small trees and make syrup which would not be certified organic. Then you either pull spouts on the small tree tubing system or you ream the trees and tap with a larger diameter spout and sell the sap collected in the spring to somebody who isn't Organic. If you had two evaporators, sets of tanks, etc, you could also just boil all the sap from both tubing systems, being sure to separate Organic sap from non-Organic sap. With all of this being said, I'm willing to bet that what I just described would not be allowed by Organic certifiers. Additionally, there is a reason that many people don't tap small trees and I am not suggesting people try tapping less than 9'' diameter trees, but for folks who already do this then this could be a way to increase yields.

I can think of some potentially negative outcomes of tapping in fall into the spring. You would take more sap from the tree than you would by just tapping in spring and this could (maybe) cause problems for the tree. I'm not sure if there have been studies that show how much sap you can sustainably take from one tree, year after year. Bear could still be out and about and chew up your tubing during the fall season. Reaming of the taphole in spring could prove ineffectual and your tapholes could dry out, causing you to miss bigger and sweeter sap runs than were found in fall. Tapping twice would mean twice as many spouts. Others have mentioned this, but as the fall sap runs start to end things are getting colder and colder unlike in spring, making cleanup more difficult. I'm sure there are more negatives but I can't remember them right now.

Already, some large producers begin tapping as early as December (to my knowledge) and I know of a large producer that made syrup on Christmas last year. I believe that they didn't ream out any tapholes. From what I understand, if you tap very early in the winter and your taphole dries out towards the end of the season, you will make just as much syrup as long as you collect all the sap during the time that spouts are in trees. Usually the end of the season sap is not as good anyway, so tapping early seems like an okay thing to do.

I see fall tapping as a way to increase profits. The way I see it, you could extend the maple season from a 2 month season to a 6 month season. If you tap in November and collect all the sap that flows from trees until April, you could collect significantly more sap. Well, I'm a young guy and haven't been sugaring for long so I would love this but I know many producers are very ready to be done by the end of the season. I'm sure there are many flaws in my thoughts but I just wanted to see what others thought. I was surprised to see so many posts in so many different threads all relating to fall tapping.

Even if fall tapping is not economical for sugarmakers, it could be a way for the hobbiest with enough trees to have more fun! It has been a dream of mine for the last year or so to get a little 2x4 or 2x6 wood fired evaporator and boil off of a small number of trees. If a hobbyist had a few hundred trees they could tap half in the fall and half in the spring. And if you wanted to hunt or had a lot of work to get done one week, you wouldn't be losing a whole lot of money by just not collecting sap during that time.

I'm so grateful that people like Spud and PAtheron have posted their findings on this site. If anyone else has done work with fall tapping or heard of any success/failure stories, please post! I feel that there is potential but I know there are bound to be flaws in my ideas. Maybe if I have the time I will do a little research this fall and into the spring. Here is a dealer that offers 'microspouts'. Not sure if these are the ones that some sugarmakers have used for fall tapping. http://www.dsdstars.com/en_index.php


Will Dunkley

Westford, Vermont

[buckeye gold]

I have tapped early taps for a few years and think it is worth while. I think it matters a lot what part of the maple range you work in. I am in southern Ohio and we do not suffer the extreme snow falls and cold. Last year was my first go at what I call fall tapping, but for years i have put out a set of taps the first week of January. I will get sporadic runs through January and make about a third of my syrup during this time. In most years it turns cold around the 20th and runs stop until February. I leave these early taps out and they produce until late February. This is usually about 1/3 of my trees. Last year I tapped 27 trees on December 9th on bags. I worked these taps until January 15th 2015. Sap runs were sporadic and yields less than spring. Sugar content was ok and averaged 1.8%. The biggest problem was wide temperature swings. I agree with spud, leave the small trees alone. Also I did not do well on reds in the fall. I did not ream or retap these trees in the spring. My February was horrible and then March jumped to high temps fast. My fall taps made me some valuable syrup. I am just a hobby guy running around a hundred taps. I have 2-3 times that amount of taps available on my property. So in 2015 I plan to taps two sets. One in December and another in Late January. I will do 75-100 in each tapping and will use all new trees for the regular season. I think it is possible to run continuous from December to March in a warmer year. I have a journal from last fall if anyone wants a copy.

Here are my averages from last December (2014)

27 taps

35 days out

8 runs

total sap collected 175.5 gal

season total per tap 4.39 gal

average per tap 0.135 gal

That looks poor, but some of those were reds that ran very little or no sap, and the same is true for the small trees. My bigger trees actually gave me around 1-2 gallons a run. The syrup was good but nitre was up.

This year I plan to tap all larger sugars maples and try some north face trees. I will do a full tapping of 75-100 on bags/buckets. If we get the El-nino winter I may have to wait until Late December, but if that is true I will be boiling for 3-3.5 months solid. We had an El-nino year a few years ago and I started on January 8th and ran until March 10th solid.

Sugar operations in the southern ranges have more flexibility I believe

[spud]

It's nice to read that more Traders are interested in playing around with some Fall tapping. Fall has always been a great time of the year to be in the woods so why not tap some trees. I do not think a tap hole in my woods would stay productive from Nov 1st to April 20th. Even with reaming the holes and going a bit deeper the tap hole does slow down. Although the sap quality declines in April I still make more money in April then any other month. Because of this I would not want to tap any earlier than January 1st or I would lose April sap. If you plan to Fall tap in my area it would be best to tap trees that you do not plan to tap in the spring. I do plan to set up a small section of my woods for Fall tapping only. I wanted to do this for this year but there is to many other things going on. My plan is to run 27+ inches of vacuum on my fall trees and hope for at least a .25GPT. I found in my woods that tapping the south or south/east sides of the tree is the only way to go in the Fall. In the Fall as the daylight hours go down you need fast heat from the sun because once it goes down the sap will stop running. In the spring the sap will keep running later in the day. If your tap hole faces the West by the time the sun hits it the temp has dropped to much for the sap to run in the fall. My fall trees ran best between 10:00am to about 3:00pm. For those of you who plan to Fall tap this year please let us know how you do. I do plan to put some fall taps in just to measure sap amounts and sugar in my future Fall woods.

Spud

[WestfordSugarworks]

Very interesting and helpful Buckeye and Spud. Buckeye, what you have going on sounds perfect for your size. I assume you have a pretty flat slope? What do you boil on? I have a feeling that tubing under vacuum would solve issues of placement of the tap on the tree. I think Proctor has done research that indicates it doesn't matter what side of the tree you tap on in terms of yields, but obviously that study was done in spring. Spud, what is your elevation? I guess that it doesn't make sense that you could keep a tap productive for 6 months, even with reaming. But you could keep it going as long as possible with new spouts every year under high vacuum. Where we are, we make the majority of our syrup in March. I'd really like to see the results of your fall tapping under vacuum. How many taps do you think you would add in on this fall system? Keep us posted as to how it goes this fall. I wish I had a small wood-fired evaporator to do some hobby boiling in fall. I would probably just use some 3/16. Who knows, maybe one day somebody will perfect fall tapping and we'll be boiling away for a handful of months every year!

[buckeye gold]

No my slope is all hillside. I boil on a wood fired evaporator with a Smokey lake hybrid pan

[spud]

WestfordSugarworks - My elevation is 800-1200 feet. Based on my (poor man research) over the last 3 years the only Fall sap i could get was on the South or South/East sides of the trees. I tried North and West sides but the amounts were very small. I have found that tapping trees 30 inches or bigger flow good in the fall and give a decent sugar content. I bigger tree will freeze up in the fall but the mid-day sun will warm up the South side just enough to let some sap flow. The West and North side just never get the sun long enough to allow sap to flow. Spring production is very different and all the trees are in a thawing out process. The smaller trees on the other hand are very low in sugar and far less productive. I would not waste my time on a 10-20 inch tree in the fall. Although once I start fall tapping with high vacuum I will try tapping some smaller trees just to see if production would increase. Please keep in mind that my Funds for Fall Tapping Research is far less ($20.00 haha) then PMRC so Dr. Tim really is the go too guy.

Spud

[buckeye gold]

Down here in the tropics (southern Ohio) i can get sap out of the mid size trees of 16" and up, but anything smaller does not do well. The ones I tapped last year were on a S.E. slope, but I'm going to try some north slope this year. We won't get hard freezes until mid January, so I think the north slope will still yield sap.

[WestfordSugarworks]

Spud.. I've spoken with a few people at PMRC before, they are a great resource. The highest of our sugarbush in Jericho is like 1200 feet I think. Buckeye gold, have you considered using 3/16 ever? you can get quite a bit more sap per tap than buckets or bags without a vacuum pump. Sure, tubing isn't nice to look at year round but you could take it down and put it up every year. Just a thought.

[buckeye gold]

Yeah I have thought about 3/16 th, westford. I just not pulled the trigger. I don't like the tubing in my woods and the maintenance, with 100 taps collection isn't that bad. When your small every dollar counts. I do have one really steep slope right behind my shack I don't tap because it's too steep to collect on. I could get 40 taps off that slope and tubing would make it work. I may try it there.

[spud]

Yeah I have thought about 3/16 th, westford. I just not pulled the trigger. I don't like the tubing in my woods and the maintenance, with 100 taps collection isn't that bad. When your small every dollar counts. I do have one really steep slope right behind my shack I don't tap because it's too steep to collect on. I could get 40 taps off that slope and tubing would make it work. I may try it there.

Those 40 taps would be great for Fall tapping. I kinda have the same situation in my woods but about 200 taps. WestfordSugarworks is right, you can just take the tubing down at the end of the season.

Hey WestfordSugarworks where about in Jericho are you? I grew up in Underhill and went to MMU.

Spud

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Those 40 taps would be great for Fall tapping. I kinda have the same situation in my woods but about 200 taps. WestfordSugarworks is right, you can just take the tubing down at the end of the season.

Hey WestfordSugarworks where about in Jericho are you? I grew up in Underhill and went to MMU.

Spud

"I grew up in Underhill and went to MMU." Graduated 1963. :lol:

[WestfordSugarworks]

Spud, our large sugarbush is located just north of MMU on Browns Trace road. About 5000 or a bit more taps are being installed right now. I graduated from MMU in 2014.

[spud]

While shooting my 30-06 today I used an old maple tree as a back stop. I put four rounds into the big old tree and the sap was running big time. I plan to start my Fall tapping this weekend. I plan to only tap about 10-15 trees just to check sap amounts and sugar contents. I will try to post my numbers so others can see. I will not be using vacuum this fall.

Spud

[Jebediah]

Spud, I would just use a drill. Those bullets are pretty pricey.

[spud]

Spud, I would just use a drill. Those bullets are pretty pricey.

I took your advise and used a drill for the rest of my taps. My Fall tapping is going slow. As of yesterday my 10 inch trees have giving me about a quart of 1% sap. My larger trees have giving me 2 quarts per tap but the sugar is only 1% on them also. Today is kinda warm and raining so the sap may run a bit. I really thought I would get more sap the last few days with the warm sunny days. It's been a great November so far.

Spud

[spud]

My Fall tapping is picking up a bit. As of today I am up to 3GPT for an average. The sugar is up to 1.6% on the large trees but still only 1% on the 10 inch trees. I believe that if I was using high vacuum I could times this amount by 2.5 Looks like more sap should come this week.

Spud

[spud]

As of late today I am now up to 9 GPT on my test trees. Today was a very good sap day. Sugar content is about the same as the other day.

Spud

[spud]

The rain yesterday gave me a little more sap but not much. I am up to about 9.5 GPT and the sugar is 1.8% on the large trees. The smaller trees are still at 1.0%. Looks like some mid to high 40s by weekend so maybe I will see more sap.

Spud

[foxtailsugary]

i havent really been following this thread but i made a quart of syrup thanksgiving night. ate with family and outside i went. sugar content was 3.5% blew me away

[spud]

I am up to 12.5 gallons per tap now. The weather looks great for mid to end of this week. Getting 2% now on big trees and 1 % on smaller trees.

Spud

[TheMapleNews]

Hi Spud,

We want to do a story on Fall Tapping this week. Can you shoot an email to us so we can connect?

pgregg@themaplenews.com

or call 518-692-2204

[WestfordSugarworks]

Something I forgot to ask before now.. does the sap ever turn bad in the fall? I guess maybe it would after several warm days, then get okay again after a freeze?

[MapleMark753]

Sure, sap can go bad in the fall. We haven't had it happen in our fall tapping, less sap than spring for us makes collecting easier and more often anyway.
What others have said bears repeating, just treat it like milk, whatever time of year you're tapping. If you'd leave milk outside for just another day or so....
Our overall sugar content so far is 1.8 percent. That's down from regular season. I usually post in the other fall tapping thread, I see there are at least two, so check them out if you haven't already. Good luck!
take care, Mark

[TheMapleNews]

Well, we saw it with our own eyes--fall boiling. We visited a sugarmaker in Central Vermont on Saturday night who was boiling. He has collected 1000 gallons of sap since Thanksgiving. Look for a story in our January issue.

If there are any other fall tappers out there making syrup this week, we'd love to hear from you.

Email us at pgregg@themaplenews.com

[pdr]

Cattaraugus, Co., NY. Started tapping 11/23, should finish this week. Approx. 6000 gal sap so far, approx 1.4% average. Three boils have yielded approx. 75 gal. syrup, dark/exellent flavor. Vac system, 3/16-5/16 hybrid. Freeze coming this weekend, should boil again mid-week.

[unc23win]

Cattaraugus, Co., NY. Started tapping 11/23, should finish this week. Approx. 6000 gal sap so far, approx 1.4% average. Three boils have yielded approx. 75 gal. syrup, dark/exellent flavor. Vac system, 3/16-5/16 hybrid. Freeze coming this weekend, should boil again mid-week.

That's pretty cool where exactly are you located? Are these taps your going to tap in the bring as well or not? Do you think it was worth the effort?

[pdr]

TJared, thanks for your comments. Looks like Franklinville NY is about 75-80 miles NW of Middlebury Center, PA. I use CV1's and, as was the case 2 yrs ago, I expect they'll still be running in April. (Check this thread around pages 7-8 or so for my summaries back then) I'm also testing various lengths and tap counts on the 3/16 lines. They range from a 200'/4 tapper to a 1200'/43 tapper. Is it worth it? In this strong El Nino year, early tapping is worth a shot. Besides, Dad is 93 and very much involved. He (and I) don't mind the relatively warm, snowless working conditions one bit.

[jimsudz]

Hey Paul next time you boil give me a shout. Wanted to stop few years back and you did reach out to me. But I didn't reply because of the out of town phone number. Then I listen to voice mail and deleted by mistake. I'm not to far, and would enjoy a boil for the holidays. Jimsudz

[unc23win]

TJared, thanks for your comments. Looks like Franklinville NY is about 75-80 miles NW of Middlebury Center, PA. I use CV1's and, as was the case 2 yrs ago, I expect they'll still be running in April. (Check this thread around pages 7-8 or so for my summaries back then) I'm also testing various lengths and tap counts on the 3/16 lines. They range from a 200'/4 tapper to a 1200'/43 tapper. Is it worth it? In this strong El Nino year, early tapping is worth a shot. Besides, Dad is 93 and very much involved. He (and I) don't mind the relatively warm, snowless working conditions one bit.

Wow thanks pdr I checked out those pages sounds pretty good not sure how I missed those posts when you made them. So you don't reem the holes or anything just use CV1s and go from Thanksgiving until April? I know the weather would have been good for me to fall tap this year I just can't get all the other crap done as it is. I am all for getting as much work in the woods done without snow as possible. Now I'll go back and read what I missed form before. :)

[spud]

Wow thanks pdr I checked out those pages sounds pretty good not sure how I missed those posts when you made them. So you don't reem the holes or anything just use CV1s and go from Thanksgiving until April? I know the weather would have been good for me to fall tap this year I just can't get all the other crap done as it is. I am all for getting as much work in the woods done without snow as possible. Now I'll go back and read what I missed form before. :)

It would be good if Dr. Tim could tell us how long a CV2 spouts will stay productive in a tap hole. I have found that after 12 weeks the tap hole stops being productive. When a person pulls spouts (of any kind) in mid April and the tap is still wet that does not mean it is still a productive tap hole. My biggest concern has always been how early can I tap and still have very productive taps for the first 15-20 days of April? The most productive months for sugaring in my area is the last two weeks of March and the first 20 days of April. April by far is my most productive month for sap. If I was to tap all my trees in November and just leave the spouts in till mid April I would get little to no sap in April. That would be a lose of 125,000+ gallons of sap. I wish PMRC would come out with a spout that could be productive for 5-6 months but I do not think it is possible. The CV2 is the most productive spout on the market based on research.

Spud

[unc23win]

It would be good if Dr. Tim could tell us how long a CV2 spouts will stay productive in a tap hole. I have found that after 12 weeks the tap hole stops being productive. When a person pulls spouts (of any kind) in mid April and the tap is still wet that does not mean it is still a productive tap hole. My biggest concern has always been how early can I tap and still have very productive taps for the first 15-20 days of April? The most productive months for sugaring in my area is the last two weeks of March and the first 20 days of April. April by far is my most productive month for sap. If I was to tap all my trees in November and just leave the spouts in till mid April I would get little to no sap in April. That would be a lose of 125,000+ gallons of sap. I wish PMRC would come out with a spout that could be productive for 5-6 months but I do not think it is possible. The CV2 is the most productive spout on the market based on research.

Spud

I hear you spud. I know of a producer who said they had CV1s still running in May when they pulled them, but since they weren't collecting they had no way of knowing how many were running and of course they were not tapped in the fall.

PATheron had tried some fall tapping in the past, but decided for him it wasn't worth. Makes me wonder what about this year?

If a guy could tap them now with no snow and count on them in the spring that would be awesome and it sounds like pdr is doing that and happy with the results. Since he is relatively close to me I am very interested to find out. Over the last couple of years I really thought you guys in Vermont just had better weather for fall tapping.

[buckeye gold]

Well I been waiting on the right weather to fall/early winter tap and it just has not come. The next few days look like a good cycle so I put out 50 taps on bags today. I only had two wet holes, but I didn't expect any. I figured I would be ok to tap now and get through mid January. I typically do fairly well in early January. This time last year I had already made a few gallons of syrup. I use regular tree saver taps and have left some out all winter to see what happens. My usual fall tapping starts the first week of December. I have some taps that are still running when the regular season comes, but they are only producing about 1/3rd the sap. I plan on getting four weeks of good production on these fall taps and that's bout it. I think it is because we have too many warm days and bacteria growth starts in the holes. Now I have tapped in early to Mid January when it's cold and got a solid 7-8 weeks out of them. I am not sure this fall is going to do much for me this year, but if the current weather pattern holds I put my regular taps in by January 15th.

[buckeye gold]

To my surprise I had a small run last night. It really wasn't enough to do a boil, but I didn't want to let it set so I boiled it. I actually finished a small batch of syrup, so I've made my first syrup of the season......Yeah! It was med. to dark and had a rich good taste, If all my fall syrup is like this I will be a happy camper. Over the weekend should be my best chance for a real run.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If those CV1s are still running in April, I will be shocked this year as warm as it is. Weather holds like this into January as they say, they may not hardly run in March.

[unc23win]

If those CV1s are still running in April, I will be shocked this year as warm as it is. Weather holds like this into January as they say, they may not hardly run in March.

Just curious when do you tap Brandon?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Usually Feb 1st to 10th. Last year we tapped first week of February and made 12% crop 7th to 10th. Looked like a great start and then bottom fell out. Went 23 days with no sap and lots of below zero temps and 4' of snow. Normal end of season is around 21st of March for us and March went from too cold to too warm. I have boiled in April the last 3 years which is great for being this far south. New taps were running 1 to 2 weeks after CV2s quit last year. Made me a complete UNbeliever in them and left prob 20% of tips in the tree.

[PATheron]

Pdr- Ive done some fall tapping here in northeastern pa and what I found is that I would get about six weeks run time on a tap. That's with new drops and taps. When I fall tapped I tapped first of November basically as soon as leaves off. they would run November and December and that's that. No good in spring. My conclusion is that I get six weeks of sap run time. Not six calendar days. Ive always tapped first part of January and have never had a year when they quit too soon so that's when I do it now. I feel if the taps run two weeks and it freezes up for next 100 years I still have 4 weeks run time when it thaws out. I do think my January taps may run some less at end but I think I make out better tapping early getting things running right and being sure not to miss anything. Theron

[PATheron]

I meant not six weeks calander days. Theron