Change spiles yearly???

[LewisJon]

We've been told that most of the bacteria in the woods hides right in our spiles - not necessarily in the lines themselves.

So.............some family members want to switch out spiles yearly - about 4,000 taps. On the other hand, some of us are not wild about the idea - cost isn't real high but it does take time. Also, it seems wasteful.

Any thoughts???

[maple flats]

Change them! If you doubt that, do some research from Steve Childs and Dr Tim Perkins.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I guess it depends on if you want to make more syrup or not...... My next question would be how old is your tubing? and do you run vacuum? Have you ever been to a seminar on the subject?

[madmapler]

If you change the spouts to check valve spouts you'll see the greatest increase in sap collection. The best thing is to change your drops as well especially if its been a while. If you do this then you wont need check valves the first year but should use them every year afterward. The increase is definately worth it. Especially if your on vacuum but either way. The bacteria closes up the taphole early and this is caused by the contaminated sap being drawn back into the taphole during freezes. Check valves prevent this from happening. New drops are effective the first year because they are'nt contaminated yet. You should make your drops at least 2' long or longer.

[BreezyHill]

Flats is spot on!
Changing the spout/spile annually is huge! The cost of a spout, $.18 and the 15 seconds to change them is worth it. I say 15 seconds because that was how long it took an 83 year old man to change a spout on a stop watch a the fair.
I would go with the clear spout as you will get the benefit of the suns bacterial killing punch. Some like a black spout, as it will melt the ice faster...if you have ice in the tap hole, you have bigger problems than changing a spout. Be You have a major issue with line freezing before bush freezes. But that's another thread. Find a guy with a drop cutter and a teenage son that will run rolls thru so he(Tyler) can have $$$ for is girl friend and you are in business with drops at $.28 for 30"
You are right the taps will only run you $720 and drops $1120. So for 1840 + Shipping, you are looking to getting a production boost of 10-20%.
So on 4000 taps and lets say you are making .35g/t a 15% increase would be 210 gallons more syrup. So if you could get $15 for a gallon of syrup you will be looking at $3150.... $$$ way ahead.
Isn't it great to have youth coming into the operation. They can show us with the graying hair a different point of view.
Watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.
So I have decided to give them a budget...spend it as they wish...show me the results & next years budget will reflect your results. Time will tell.

As for WASTEFUL...You are absolutely right!!!! but....look at it from another angle... is it wasteful to change the oil in a truck at 3000 miles when you could go 10000 miles and put a new motor in every 8 or 9 oil changes? That oil still is slippery its only black and I just changed it last month. I hear you, I feel for you...but boy when you can recycle the spouts is it all that wasteful or investing in your bottom line.
Is the glass half empty or half full?

Ben

[unc23win]

Breezy There ain't no freaking way I am selling syrup for $15 a gallon.

Obviously if you are replacing spouts for .18 each are not using check valves .40 or even the regular 5/16" spout .35. Your drop price is pretty close to mine but you forgot the fitting on the other end that should be replaced as well a T is about .24. So a drop with .18 spout would be $.94 x 4000 = $4000 plus labor Check valves drop and all $1.16. about $800 more.

Although the original question was is it worth it to replace spouts and I think there is sufficient research to back that practice up.

[DrTimPerkins]

We've been told that most of the bacteria in the woods hides right in our spiles - not necessarily in the lines themselves.

So.............some family members want to switch out spiles yearly - about 4,000 taps. On the other hand, some of us are not wild about the idea - cost isn't real high but it does take time. Also, it seems wasteful.

Any thoughts???

Lots of thoughts.....just a few here.

There aren't more bacteria in the spouts, but those are the ones that'll hurt you the most. Why? Because the spout is the interface between the tubing system and the tree. Like all living things, trees have mechanisms to prevent the spread of microorganisms throughout their tissues. The tree does this by plugging up vessels and "walling off" the wound (the tapping stain you see when you cut trees down). This happens fairly quickly, and will reduce sap flows starting about mid-season in maple, but really evident late in the season.

Numerous studies have shown that it is economically advantageous to replace spouts each year. Other strategies, such as using CV spouts or, if you don't want to do that, changing drops occasionally, will increase sap yield. The net profit you receive depends upon your cost of implementing the strategy and the benefit you receive (in terms of higher sap yield).

We have developed a computer model (Excel spreadsheet) that helps to estimate the benefits. Producers enter their costs of materials (depending upon what spout they use, cost of tubing, cost of labor, etc.), their baseline sap production (highest achieved, or production in the first year after retubing) and the value they place upon your sap. The model will be out within the next 3-6 months and we hope it will be a useful tool for making these sorts of decisions.

[eagle lake sugar]

I have a c.v. question. At the end of the season, using seasonal spouts, the sap from our trees goes cloudy at about the same time the runs slow down. Rather than make a little more commercial syrup, I typically call it quits at that point. Would c.v. spouts have any effect on this? I'm talking late April at the end of our season. Thanks

[DrTimPerkins]

I say 15 seconds because that was how long it took an 83 year old man to change a spout on a stop watch a the fair.

Was it 28 deg F with cold dropline tubing? Was he wearing gloves? Was the seal absolutely vacuum tight? It'll probably take a little longer than that, but I do agree that it is almost always worth it (in terms of net profit to the producer) to replace spouts EVERY year.


I would go with the clear spout as you will get the benefit of the suns bacterial killing punch.

No, that isn't the case. UV-C light (antimicrobial) doesn't penetrate the plastics used for ANY current maple spouts, so there is no such effect. There are really no good options for UV transparent plastic for this application.


Find a guy with a drop cutter and a teenage son that will run rolls thru so he(Tyler) can have $$$ for is girl friend and you are in business with drops at $.28 for 30"

With tubing at $60/roll, a 30" piece of tubing costs $0.30. Many producers now use 36" drops, so the cost is higher. Most producers also change the tee at the same time (otherwise you will make leaks in the tees when you try to cut them out OR you spend so much additional time and cost in labor trying to save them). Then add in the labor cost of making the spout (to keep the girlfriend happy) and the cost of putting them in the woods. After you include the cost of the spout you come out close to about $1.00-$1.30 (depending upon several things), which is too high in terms of the benefit you'll receive by replacing drops each year. It turns out that if you run calculations on hundreds of scenarios (yup....done that), the point at which drop replacement makes sense (if you are NOT using CVs) is 3 yrs. With that, you'll lose $ the first year (due to cost), make some $ the second, and a little less the third (in most cases...although it is season/weather dependent). Of course that depends upon several factors, but 3 yrs is a good general rule of thumb. If you use CV spouts, there is no economic advantage in replacing drops for at least 10 years, and probably more.

[DrTimPerkins]

I have a c.v. question. At the end of the season, using seasonal spouts, the sap from our trees goes cloudy at about the same time the runs slow down. Rather than make a little more commercial syrup, I typically call it quits at that point. Would c.v. spouts have any effect on this? I'm talking late April at the end of our season. Thanks

The effect of any type of improved sanitation strategy (including use of CV spouts) begins to happen about 1/3 to 1/2 way into the season and builds up from that time to the end of the season. Most producers don't actually notice this (for several reasons), or don't recognize what is happening easily. So you are actually getting a significant benefit during the time you are making table syrup as well. In addition, because the sap is running harder at the end, it is typically not as cloudy as early, so you'll continue to make decent syrup for a bit longer. Eventually however you WILL get cloudy sap and make commercial syrup, and probably make more of it...but that is far from the whole benefit of using CV technology.

[BreezyHill]

Dr. Tim: It was a balmy 80 degrees in the shade with the fan running on a muggy Labor Day weekend. No gloves, but I always try to put my drops together before I go to the woods and use a tool to slip spouts and ys or tees on in the bush.
I still remember the days of carrying a thermos of hot water to soften the tubing and when the water was to cool you stuck it in your mouth to soften it. Then came the tubing tools and finally now quality tubing.
I can get you all the quality tubing you need for under $54 a roll of 500' and the 36" drops are $.33 each. :) Its alittle less for 4-Hers.
This time of year you just need some cider and dounots and you can get a cheaper labor party together...and have a spoutin party.

[wiam]

Dr. Tim: It was a balmy 80 degrees in the shade with the fan running on a muggy Labor Day weekend. No gloves, but I always try to put my drops together before I go to the woods and use a tool to slip spouts and ys or tees on in the bush.
I still remember the days of carrying a thermos of hot water to soften the tubing and when the water was to cool you stuck it in your mouth to soften it. Then came the tubing tools and finally now quality tubing.
I can get you all the quality tubing you need for under $54 a roll of 500' and the 36" drops are $.33 each. :) Its alittle less for 4-Hers.
This time of year you just need some cider and dounots and you can get a cheaper labor party together...and have a spoutin party.

But the original poster asked about replacing spouts. Kind of hard to do that in the living room

[BreezyHill]

Wiam, If the original poster has not changed taps in awhile, then chances are that he has not changed drops either; thus the living room would be the best place to start. Cut the drops with the family or friends and have them ready for installation when tapping.
The fact that an experienced well aged gentleman can easily slip a tap on tubing demonstrates how easily and quickly changing a tap can be with todays tubing. Since the poster obviously has family that is interested in the operation, the living room is the only choice. There is so much that a seasoned tapper needs to share with the younger generations as to where the industry came from; so that the advances of tomorrow can be enjoyed and embraced while still being able to teach the next generation of seasons gone by. It is a great learning experience to hear the older generations sharing the trials and tribulations of the past. It is hard for kids of today to grasp the fact that there is not a little machine that you can but syrup powder or beans into and have syrup drip out off; when that is how they get coffee, hot chocolate, smores come in a package ready to eat...where is all the fun of the camp fire or bon fire in the back yard and family sharing stories that help mold their lives???

So grab some tubing, taps and y n tees and if you need a keg to get some friends over, do it. The memories will last a life time. No reason boiling soda can only be shared at boiling time. :mrgreen:

[Thad Blaisdell]

My question still remains.... do they run vacuum, how old is the tubing, and have they ever been to a seminar on the subject.

Lets assume they run vacuum, then my suggestion would be to try the cdl, or lapierre clear polycarbonate spouts for a year. They are relatively inexpensive .17 or so each. Let the family see how much more syrup is made. Then move on to possibly new tubing, better vacuum better spouts. They should make 2000 gallons of syrup on 4000 trees. But go the easy route the first year to convince the rest.

[delivron]

For a slightly different perspective read this report from Mike Farell at Cornell.

http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/pubs/2011%20Maple%20Tubing%20and%20Taphole%20Sanitation %20Research.pdf

About a year a go I asked Mike a simple question and apologized that I did not have time for a 1/2 hour education. Mike gave a clear and concise answer.

Question: What is the best most effective way to clean maple tubing for the biggest return on investment of time and effort.

Answer: Replace the taps and drops annually will result in the best return on investment.

[DrTimPerkins]

Answer: Replace the taps and drops annually will result in the best return on investment.

If Mike answered that question in that way, then I respectfully disagree. This isn't Mike's specialty. Steve Childs is the researcher at Cornell who authored the paper you linked. I don't recall seeing any papers from Mike on the subject.

The confusion arises when we start talking about yields versus costs versus NET profits. My viewpoint, and I believe that of many producers, is that NET profit is what we really should be looking at. Replacing spouts and drops annually will undoubtedly generate the highest sap yields. It will also generate the highest profits -- for the maple equipment dealers that is. For the maple producer, replacing drops annually will reduce NET profits, however I'm sure the dealers would gladly sell you the materials (that is their business after all).

Quick example. If you replace your drops one year after not doing so for several years (not using CV), you will get a big increase in yield. The following year your yield will drop about 15% if you don't replace the drops. So lets say you do replace drops, and you made 20 gal/tap the previous year. If you don't replace drops you'd get ~17 gal sap. If you do you'd get 20 gal sap. So you get a net increase of 3 additional gal by replacing drops, but it costs you about $1.10-1.30 (including materials and labor) to get it, or about $0.36-0.43 per gal. If your sap is worth that or more, you made a net profit. If not, you lost money.

[PerryFamily]

Thad- I totally agree with your previous suggestion about changing spouts first.
I plan on doing this on a small 200 tap bush I have recently leased from a family friend . It was tapped a few years ago and is all there. I fugure the cost of new seasonal spouts is minimal considering there should be a pretty significant increase in sap production.
I contemplated a complete re-do but maybe next summer. New spouts is a good compromise.

[treefinder]

I use to use the same spouts, but now the studies show a big increase in sap production im changing mine from now on going with the clear seasonal spout

[Shepp]

We've been told that most of the bacteria in the woods hides right in our spiles - not necessarily in the lines themselves.

So.............some family members want to switch out spiles yearly - about 4,000 taps. On the other hand, some of us are not wild about the idea - cost isn't real high but it does take time. Also, it seems wasteful.

Any thoughts???
Well how about this. I started a small operation 2 years ago. I put up two lines with new tubing and spiles on gravity. 15 taps each. The first year they ran like crazy. Last year was a bust. Maybe 40 gallons of sap. I removed and cleaned the lines with tap water each season. Last spring I managed to pick up a trailer load of used tubing and drops still assembled from a farmer that was giving it away. He said it was time to replace all his lines for new ones. I put up 2 new lines with the old tubing right next to the other lines that were only two years old. The new lines were at least four years old and some of the tubing was green in colour and stiff. The spiles and tubing looked like they had been in the bush a long time and i could see mold in some of the tubing. Well I know last spring was exceptional, but the lines with the old tubing ran like crazy while the
2 lines I put up before with brand new everything and flushed each spring with clean water ran much slower. These two lines with the old spiles and tubing produced consistently until I pulled spiles because my 300 gallon tank was over flowing and I couldn't boil it all. I plan on using more of the old tubing And spiles this coming season.

[unc23win]

Shepp that is definitely a new twist. Brings a few questions to mind and I am not trying to be a jerk or anything. When putting in the line you got from the farmer were you tapping previoulsy untapped trees?

[DrTimPerkins]

These two lines with the old spiles and tubing produced consistently until I pulled spiles because my 300 gallon tank was over flowing and I couldn't boil it all.

How long had it been since the old tubing had been used? How had it been stored?

[Shepp]

Shepp that is definitely a new twist. Brings a few questions to mind and I am not trying to be a jerk or anything. When putting in the line you got from the farmer were you tapping previoulsy untapped trees?
They were virgin hard maple.

[Shepp]

How long had it been since the old tubing had been used? How had it been stored?
I picked the tubing up in the summer last year. They had removed the lines from the bush that spring. They were stored in an open stainless steel collection tank in the barn yard. The lines had water in them because I tasted it. They were complete lines with drop lines and spiles still attached. Judging by the dirt on the outside of the tubes I would say they had been in the bush a long time.

[DrTimPerkins]

I picked the tubing up in the summer last year. They had removed the lines from the bush that spring. They were stored in an open stainless steel collection tank in the barn yard. The lines had water in them because I tasted it. They were complete lines with drop lines and spiles still attached. Judging by the dirt on the outside of the tubes I would say they had been in the bush a long time.

In that case I would say that your results are certainly rather atypical. Old tubing and spouts typically have half the production of new material whether on gravity or vacuum.

[Shepp]

Yes I am curious to see what happens next spring. I plan to add another 30 taps on the old tubing and I didn't bother cleaning any of it this year.