Multiple sap ladders

[Wanabe1972]

Guys my entire bush is in a low spot and I pull all my sap up a single line ladder 14 feet to go to the releaser. I run a deleval 73 running about 18 to 20 inches. Then my vacuum line runs from the releaser to the barn where the pump is about 400 feet. Would my pump pull another 15 foot ladder so I could put my releaser in the barn. Depending on the mud season driving my truck 400 feet to my tank across a corn field can be sketchy. Also by having my tank in the barn I can use an electric transfer punp instead of lugging my gas pump.

[maple flats]

You could, but at the expense of losing some vacuum at the taps. Your pump at the tap count you show is plenty big enough, the main thing you will need is the proper size vacuum line from the pump to the ladder, and also to the existing line. Check into Steve Childs info on pipe size. If the pipe is not large enough you can't transfer the vacuum. You may want to run a wet/dry from the barn to the ladder, since they pull better vacuum. If you now have a 3/4" line, leave it and add a 1" dry line over top. If only 1/2" now, you are too small to get good transfer now.

[nymapleguy607]

You do have pump enough to pull 2 ladders but I don't think you will get very good vacuum transfer through the 2nd ladder. Why not leave the releaser and tank where it is with one sap ladder and then run a sap transfer line to your shed. You mentioned you have a gas powered pump so all you would need to do is pump the sap up vertical 15' and then let gravity take it to your shed. A small tank in your shed and a sump pump can move it to your main storage tank. Personally a sap ladder is something I would rather not have let alone 2 in the main line.

[BreezyHill]

Wanabe1972(WB)...that 73 you have will do that and much more. I run 3 ladders on mine last season and I had a .47g/t average. The three ladders were(from memory)14',16',& 14'. The last ladder is only 50' from the sugar house. Now the issue you will have is that you are running the 73 on the low side of the vac range for her. I would suggest adjusting your level up to get the ladders working to a higher performance rate. This will also increase your production by 5%-7% for ever inch you increase the vac level.
There is no reason to be ruttin up your fields!

The only issue you may have is your tubing size to the system. CFM transfer is severally affected by distance. Send me a pm by clicking on my name and I will forward the data to you.
I have seen some releaser that are vacuum hogs. They eat vacuum like crazy while others have few if any surmountable leaks.

If you have a D 73, do you have the releaser jar, pump and probe that it was hooked to when used on the dairy?

That is your most efficient releaser system. No vacuum leaks and you can pump to storage from the jar. No moving parts and really cool for tours to watch the sap come in from the bush. The sap rushing in from the bush can be very memorizing for people. I have had people stand and just stare at the clear dairy pipe my mains change into in the sugar house. That is where I got the idea for the releaser jar. Mine will have every main that comes in on its own Pyrex tee to the jar so visitors can see the different parts of the bushes production flow. It is really cool to see how the wind affects trees.

Long and short you will enjoy all your sap coming to the sugar house and hauling sap will be a memory and you will be making more with the higher vac.

[BreezyHill]

WB another point, after the three ladders & another 500' away and at the end of an overly long 5/16 with too many taps on it, I was running 21" at the last hole at peak flow, with a leaker. Without the leaker I couldn't get past 18. So I played with the leaker until I was getting 21" at peak flow. Early am she would run 24"
Plan is to put a 3/4" up that brook line in an effort to crush the .47g/t average of 2013.

The time I spent hauling sap, now I check for leaks or just boil if the vac looks good and lines are running good.

[Wanabe1972]

I thought about pumping back to the barn with my gas pump but the only thing worse than driving 800 feet round trip in knee deep mud would be doing it on foot carrying a pump. The other plus to this is I have a bulk tank on a tariler that I can leave on the farm and my buddy can turn the sump on while doing his chores in the morning and it will be ready for pickup. I will be working 7pm to 7 am during sugar season and I. Can hook up to the tank and be boiling by 8am. I could also pickup another 40 or 50 taps on vacuum that I have run on gravity in the past.

[unc23win]

WB another point, after the three ladders & another 500' away and at the end of an overly long 5/16 with too many taps on it, I was running 21" at the last hole at peak flow, with a leaker. Without the leaker I couldn't get past 18. So I played with the leaker until I was getting 21" at peak flow. Early am she would run 24"
Plan is to put a 3/4" up that brook line in an effort to crush the .47g/t average of 2013.

The time I spent hauling sap, now I check for leaks or just boil if the vac looks good and lines are running good.
Breezy which vacuum level do you get 21-24" or 27-29" with your delaval 73 you said 27-29 in the discussion about dairy pumps. Some impressive numbers for a dairy pump. Is your pump that much oversized? Also what makes the 73 the most efficient releaser system? That seems like a rather bold statement to me.

[madmapler]

I went up to Thad Blaisdells over the weekend to buy some equipment and he pumps back to his sugarhouse using a submersible pump set in his tank run by a generator. He has to go out to it to start it but has it rigged to a float that shuts it down when finished. It runs back to his sugarhouse through a 1" line. I have been considering sap ladders as well for a few hundred taps but this seems to be the way to go for me. For 400' or so maybe with a small pump you could run temporary power out to it. I dont know what that would require though.

[BreezyHill]

Last season on my 73 with only the 1 hp motor I was pulling consistently, even during peak flow 27-29. If it went below 27 there was a leak.
Well the way I would rank any releaser is on its reliability, cleanability, maintance needed, and moving parts. Ever releaser will fail. Even this releaser will fail; when it does I have a spare all set to go for $50 and a spare pump motor in the event it fails, $100. Since the releaser is glass it can be cleaned with acid of your choice, Clorox, or even water. It is food grade pyrex, so super hot wash is also an option if needed. Maintance: will there really isn't any unless you pinch a seal. Then they are only a few bucks and I have them on hand also. No Plastic in contact with sap and makes a really neat job and 100% visablity for tours. Bold not to much; just brutely honest. I just am not into reinventing the wheel.
The pump is slightly over sized but not when you factor in the total number of taps on all mains and use Steve Childs data sheet on vac transfer. That is why I am plumbing in a delaval 75 as I plan to have the entire farm tapped for the coming season. The best part of the system is it is simple, I hate having to baby sit equipment. I don't have time I need to start it and walk away and do my day time work and know that my sons or wife can check in on the system and correct any problem and call me on the cell if needed for further direction. My 15 yr old can run the sugar house and has, all by himself. For me that is piece of mind.
I know that without the 27-29 I would have failed to reach .47g/t next season I look to pass that and the goal is .6g/t. I think it is doable; but I tell 4-Hers set goals that are reach able. You can always increase a goal and fell good about changing it upwards.
Last month I checked for squirrel damage. I could only pull 23 on the system. One saddle was pulled apart by down tree top, and 7 taps off of their holders.

[SadSams]

I use a Delaval 76. That's the one that is 3hp and roughly 35 cfm. All of my taps are on 7 sap ladders. I think it works great. I'm not buying 27'' vac. levels though. These pumps are designed to run at 15'' in a dairy barn. I push mine at 22'' but have a blower right on it to help cool it. I did test it once to see how much vac. it would pull. I sealed up the regulator and ran it and only got to 24'' I do like the glass releaser though. It is mesmerizing to watch it come blasting in.

[BreezyHill]

The Delaval 76 is a cast body only pump, newer design. Replaced the 75 and is very similar in cfm. The draw back is it does not have the cast motor frame/body configuration. The 76 will run a lot hotter due to the design. The fan wont let you run vac much past 20" You will need to flood both shaft bearings and then add another to the inlet just prior to the pump. This is your cooler. The oil will also seal the tiny scratches on the housing and the vanes. This will increase your vacuum level. Be sure to have an oil reclaimer and check the temp of the oil that is going back into the pump...an infrared temp sensor is a great tool for checking your pumps status. You will likely need to either buy a cooler or a heat sink for the oil feeding the drippers from the reclaimer.
Now look at your pulley size. The drive on a 76 is usually a 3". If your system is tight drop the size to a 2". This will reduce your friction amount from the vanes by slowing the vane speed. My concern is your system has leaks if you were only able to get 24" with the controller sealed off. Check the pump by isolating the pump with a valve near the pump. Most installs have one to check the pump for damage if vac is low. If you don't have one install it just before the check valve but before the vac controller. If you still only get 24 the vanes are tired. The water trap likely has water in it. This is the most common cause of vane failure in sugaring. Condensation gets in the trap or sap and this turns to vapor and is pulled into the pump or in the off season condensation moves to the cooler pump and rusts the housing. This rust scratches the vanes and makes them inefficient as air leaks by as vacuum increases.
If the housing is rusty you just need a hone that will open enough and a 320 grit. Shine up the housing and change the vanes. lube her her up and slipper her back together. Check the bearings as they may have rusted also from the vapor. Any tiny black spots on the balls, change them. If they don't spin easy change them. Any doubt ...change them, they are a lot cheaper than a set of vanes.
76 is a great pump she just needs some TLC and you will be rockin in no time.

[unc23win]

I went up to Thad Blaisdells over the weekend to buy some equipment and he pumps back to his sugarhouse using a submersible pump set in his tank run by a generator. He has to go out to it to start it but has it rigged to a float that shuts it down when finished. It runs back to his sugarhouse through a 1" line. I have been considering sap ladders as well for a few hundred taps but this seems to be the way to go for me. For 400' or so maybe with a small pump you could run temporary power out to it. I dont know what that would require though.

Yea I know of a couple of guys that use pumps and are happy the nice thing about one on a float is that on some anyway you can adjust the float height.

Breezy my point to you is that you mentioned two different vacuum levels for the same pump on two different threads. You also made it sounds like all Delaval 73 pumps can pull 27" and that the releaser on them is the most efficient period. Then later you talk about modifications you made to the pump so it will pull harder and you also mentioned how the releaser was more efficient because it had less moving parts and how that benefited you. So I consider it a bold statement when you say it is the most efficient. It is sort of like when you said CV2s didn't work then later on it came out that you did not use them in the manner that they were installed.

The 2 most common ways people get 27" inches of vacuum are 1. Very oversized pump and 2. A 2 stage pump. Not many people report getting anything much above 27" or 28" and 29" is virtually unheard of that whole sea level thing is hard to overcome.

[BreezyHill]

U23W sorry for confusing you. The lower level is at the tap hole the 24 was at early am an little to no flow,(from the trees), and 21 at high flow(from the tree). The 27 to 29 is at the pump and releaser. The 29 is little flow and the 27" is at peak or high flow. I am sorry again for confusing you, hope this explains it better.
The CV that I used in the trees and on the leakers failed to hold a seal on the check valve ball. See I am a builder of all most anything. When I have an idea or see a product that can be utilized in another capacity I will try it. When it failed, I started wondering if it was working in the designed capacity. Upon removing the taps (cv) they would allow air to pass thru while blowing on the drop end or sucking on the part that goes into the tree.
Just yesterday I read a post of a tapper that saw a reduction of 20% in two consecutive years on the CVs. I hope he was using them correctly.
The idea is great I fear that there is an issue in the mold or the balls that. Either way many people are seeing a poor response. I would suggest using a clear tap in part of a persons bush and see what kind of response one has in relation to cvs. But that is just what I would do and not saying that all cv are having a problem.
I will get you a pic of the vac gauge this weekend so you can see the pump on a sealed system. Do realize I don't use a vac controller so I can sut the system entirely off and pull max vac on the pump.

Over sized is a relative term. What is over sized for my particular setup is not for another. Every bush is different. I have a brook that freezes my lines well before the bush stops producing. So I am installing multiply Dry lines to cross the Brook in the hopes of not limiting production due to frozen lines in the am on run days. When I can add another 30 cfm pump for $100. It would be foolish not to have her plumbed in for the day that pump#1 fails or I add to much taps and ladders for pump #1.
Thanks for observing the point of possible confussion I will try to be more precise in the future. Thanks Ben

[Thad Blaisdell]

Breezy, if I may ask, how many taps do you have on that system? And what elevation is your woods???

[BreezyHill]

Thad, Not a problem the number of taps on in 2013 was 235-240 depending on who was counting. Back at our peak we were tapping around 2000. My dad died in 2010 and I was not in a position time wise to keep the operation going. My sons kept at me to tap again and I final said ok since we had no snow to be grooming for our snow club. I run one of the four units and my eldest son runs one for the last three years. The ladder end of the system has about 100 and the rest is thru two mains that intersect at the state line. Elevation of the sugar house is 756' my lowest tree and location of a new ladder for 2014 is 692'. The distance of this mains in approx. 1255'. It currently has 3 ladders and an additional three will be needed to bring an additional 180 taps to the sugar house. This line may have to accommodate an additional mains in order to keep a main trail unblock by mains. The total of all the ladders on this line should be about 90 feet total with I think it is at 47 on the three current ladders. The next three ladders will be a little more tricky as they are further away and there is an old property line of trees at the end. These are all 200+ year old trees that are mostly large crowns, with numerous 24" diameter trees mixed in. My only line that has nice slope is the NY/VT state line mains. The furthest end is 840' with a distance of 1500'. The issue with this mains is it has a section of 1% slope for 200' and finishes to the sugar house a 2% slope. This line will be upgraded to a wet dry system of 1" and will have approx. 22+5 taps when completed.
The middle mains is a 2% slope form the door to the end with a distance of 1600. This line is the one that is my biggest problem. It runs across two heavily travel deer trails and saddles loosen in the past. I am switching to max seals with bolts in an effort to eliminate this problem. Removing the wire support helped quite a lot but I still had two saddles that they crossed very close to that were perpetual leakers every 3-5 days. Each had wire ties on them but the gaskets would give out. Stays at 30' spacing for supports where trees were not in the straight line of the mains. Lower mains will be brand new. Never tapped area I am totally un sure how many will be on this mains but it will be running 2% slope semi parallel to the St & mid mains to the ladder mains. With some luck this line will only have 47' of ladders to accommodate it to the sugar house. Estimated taps on the line is 245. Now if I can get a neighbor to let me tap his property then the three last lines will need to accommodate another 500 taps total. I don't like to run over 70 taps on a star but 100 has worked well when I lost count and my son and I added more than we planned as we had a time window to tap in and we were to fast at putting up the laterals and tapping.
Is the 73 more than the 240 needs yes...but I wanted more vac than the bb1 was providing and all I had at the time was the 73 and a bb4. The bb4 is about 200# and needs to be torn down and checked the 73 I already checked and was good to go.
I have another bush that is 2500' of mains that will bring another 350 taps to the sugar house. That should bring us to about 1100 taps to the sugar house in total. With 1600 if I can make a deal with the neighbor.
The rest of the system is an RO that I am revesseling for more capacity, 2x6 Grimm with AUF & and a new AOF system with stake preheater, adding a Chicago fan to the preheater to put a little vac on the flue pan and suck the steam thru the preheater, 400 gal SS Bulk Milk tank to cool the sap after the RO and prior to the evap. 3 500 gal bulk tanks for sap storage prior to the RO and 550 after RO.
Hope that answers the questions Thad.
We are small but think big...work smart not hard is my motto. .6g/t is the goal for next season. So Thad what is your average last season and goal for next season.

[SadSams]

Talking about CV's, I have had 2 of the check balls get out of the fitting and make its way to the saddle on the main line and plug it up. Anybody else have this happen? Oh, 3/4 main line.

[DrTimPerkins]

Talking about CV's, I have had 2 of the check balls get out of the fitting and make its way to the saddle on the main line and plug it up.

Presumably you're talking about the CV adapter. This can happen (although it is rare) if you break the fingers holding the ball (when hammering in) or seriously bend them during tapping (either when hammering or when mating the stubby to the adapter), and especially if you are tapping with the vacuum on. The new style of stubby is shaped so that there is a far reduced chance of catching on the fingers. The main thing to avoid this is just to take additional care when tapping, and if you break or bend fingers, replace the adapter. The original batch of the first version of CV was made of a slightly harder nylon which made breakage slightly more likely. We had one guy break a handful of them (out of thousands) and the other 2 guys tapping didn't break hardly any. The shape of the tapping hammer head seemed to make a difference there.

[DrTimPerkins]

The lower level is at the tap hole the 24 was at early am an little to no flow,(from the trees), and 21 at high flow(from the tree). The 27 to 29 is at the pump and releaser.

I'm not real familiar with the 73 series, but the current Delaval series (76+) oil-cooled vane pumps are rated for 22" Hg max vacuum, which is typical for that design of pump (they are made to move a lot of CFM at moderate vacuum pressures, ~15" Hg). You'd then need to subtract about 0.8" Hg because of altitude from that.

Really not meaning to insult you in any way, but if you're managing to get 24-29" Hg from that pump it would be quite a feat. From what I recall of previous threads on this forum, most people are getting 18-20" vacuum (at the pump or releaser) from this pump (without leakers).....occasionally perhaps a little higher (22-23" Hg) if the pump is oversized for their system and things are really dialed in.

[unc23win]

Presumably you're talking about the CV adapter. This can happen (although it is rare) if you break the fingers holding the ball (when hammering in) or seriously bend them during tapping (either when hammering or when mating the stubby to the adapter), and especially if you are tapping with the vacuum on. The new style of stubby is shaped so that there is a far reduced chance of catching on the fingers. The main thing to avoid this is just to take additional care when tapping, and if you break or bend fingers, replace the adapter. The original batch of the first version of CV was made of a slightly harder nylon which made breakage slightly more likely. We had one guy break a handful of them (out of thousands) and the other 2 guys tapping didn't break hardly any. The shape of the tapping hammer head seemed to make a difference there.

You said it Dr. Tim additional care is key. Last year I switched to a Lapierre tapping hammer the aluminum one with the white plastic head and LOVE it the only draw back is that the little sucker gets kinda cold sometimes but it is so light I carry it in my pocket. I do believe a Gorilla couldn't hit a spout hard enough to mess it up.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Breezy,

I ran a .45 average last year. But a .5 is not unheard of for me. Last year elevation was not my friend. .5 is always my goal.

[BreezyHill]

Thad, those a great numbers! I have taken suggestions from DR Tim, Steve Childs, and a lot of reading...unfortunately some of the info is bad. I have to find that article on the light and the clear spouts. But I aim to prove that it can be done, .6 that is.

Here is the pic of the 73 at zero on the gauge and after running for about 10 minutes on the closed system at 28".80308031

Most vacuum regulators are rated for a maximum of 22" as that is all the counter weights in a kit. The older delaval and surge could run higher by adding weights form an additional kit. I don't run a vacuum controller unit, so it sucks all it can from the tubing. I have three other gauges that I checked the gauge in the pic against and they all read the same. So it is actually about 27" when it is adjusted for elevation.

And no I don't have photo shop program.:lol:

[BreezyHill]

Dr Tim...No insult taken at all. If I didn't see it, I would have a hard time believing it too; but I had a good teacher show me a few tricks on how to get the most of these units and it works. If all goes well I have found another 73 or 75 today. I am not a fan of the 74 and newer units as they don't dissipate the heat as well but I am building a cure for that. It is fun to work on things and get more out of them...look at what people do with diesel trucks.... 600 Hp out of a 1 ton ford. That's more than our tractor trailer. Ounce again no offence taken, its all about sharing our success so others can succeed.

[BreezyHill]

U23W take that hammer and dip it in the plastic tool handle coating product. You will have an insulated handle then. Try red...hate to loose a fine tool in the bush.