55 gallon brute trash can holding tanks?

[frontiersman1985]

Is it ok to use (brand new, never before used) brute trash cans with lids as sap holding tanks? Will it cause a bad flavor in my final product? Is it a sate method? Im not planning to sell my syrup. Just a hobbie, and to give to family and friends as gifts.

[RileySugarbush]

We used to do it and we are still alive. Many on these forums will advise against it, even for personal use, and I guess I agree with them. It's just better to use something intended for food products. See if you can find yourself a cage tank that had food products only as a single use. Food grade, easily cleaned and probably cheaper than a bunch of new rubbermaid tanks. Ours originally contained yeast, so were very easy to clean, and cheap. Look on craigslist and make sure you know what they were used for.

[PerryFamily]

Your answer is in your question. Trash + food product =no

Not saying it has not been done, and isn't still being done its just not best practice.
you can find used foid grade 55 gallon barrels for probably less than your other option.

[tcross]

although they are not ideal, I used three of them last year. .. all brand new. They worked for me! I made some good syrup with them as holding tanks! if you're on a budget and that's all you got... go for it!

[palmer4th]

well i'm still alive, but I'm sure someone with charm in about different type of plastics and such. but they worked well for me for my first year. BUT the truth about them is they are way way to expensive to buy new in comparison to a used 55 gal food grade drum! I pay $20-$25 for food grade drums..

[lyford]

this has been a debated subject on the forum before. bottom line is the rubbermaid web site states the cans meet the NSF standards 2 and 21, which means they are saying the product is safe for contact with food, but ultimately the decision is yours.

[maple flats]

With trash cans you need to determine if they are recycled plastic, if they are, you have no idea what the history is. Only if a can says it is food safe then yes, most are recycled plastic.

[tuckermtn]

http://www.rubbermaidcommercial.com/rcp/products/detail.jsp?categoryCode=waste&subCategoryCode=waste_brute_utility&rcpNum=2643&categoryCode_subCategoryCode_rcpNum=waste_waste_br ute_utility_2643

look on the right side where it lists features.

I have eaten in an institutional (school) kitchen for 20+ years that uses Brute containers for bulk food storage. I have also used them for sap storage.
They do not recommend storing juice or wine in Brutes because of oxidation risk. Not sure if that would be an issue with sap since it is not particularly acidic or sweet.

[Maplewalnut]

Frontiersman-
There is a guy in Honesdale that has food grade barrels that had canola oil in them for like $20. Look on Craigslist. Definitely a better option than a garbage can. Good luck

[TonyL]

Frontiersman-
There is a guy in Honesdale that has food grade barrels that had canola oil in them for like $20. Look on Craigslist. Definitely a better option than a garbage can. Good luck

I would want to have a plan for cleaning out plastic barrels that have had oily or fatty substances stored in them....I picked up a couple drums that contained butter....it's been 4 months, many hundreds of gallons of water, and every non-toxic cleaner I could think of, and I'm still trying to figure out how to get em' clean. May just have to give up.

[happy thoughts]

Food grade is a hotly debated subject here as is the use of trash cans as containers for food. I won't add to the debate other than to say do what your comfort level allows if it's for home use. If you're selling then you need to meet whatever federal and state compliance regs as needed. Use of non food grade plastic is not going to fly for commercial operations. And that said, Rubbermaid does produce some trashcans in certain specific colors (usually grey or white but NOT in all product lines) that might be suitable for short term sap storage. So bottom line is to contact rubbermaid about a specific trash container and color if food grade is a concern. There should be a contact email address at the Rubbermaid site link someone left above.

I also respectfully disagree with what someone else said about sap not being particularly acidic. Fresh sap maybe not, but it becomes more acidic with storage as it starts to degrade and ferment. That pretty much starts as soon as it drips from the tree and natural microbes like yeasts that are abundantly present everywhere start feeding on the sap sugar. The warmer it is, the faster that process goes.

[Maplewalnut]

I would want to have a plan for cleaning out plastic barrels that have had oily or fatty substances stored in them....I picked up a couple drums that contained butter....it's been 4 months, many hundreds of gallons of water, and every non-toxic cleaner I could think of, and I'm still trying to figure out how to get em' clean. May just have to give up.

Pan cleaner sold through maple supply houses

[PerryFamily]

I guess I should have looked into rubbermaid a bit closer. It it is approved for food, go for it. But I would agree that food grade barrels can be found for less that the Rubbermaid container.

I had never thought of using pan cleaner. Makes sense I guess. Just rinse rinse rinse. I found a hot water steam cleaner worked excellent.

Tucker- come to think of it, I have seen those very grey containers at different food related places. Had not even given it a thought.

Maybe if the called them 'Rubbermaid Brute Food Safe Containers' instead of trash barrels they would be more accepted.

Good luck

[lpakiz]

As I recall, a general rule of thumb for industrial cleaning problems was:
Acid for mineral buildup
Caustic for grease/fat removal.
Is there a food grade caustic??

[RileySugarbush]

...
Is there a food grade caustic??


Know how they make Lutefisk?

[Super Sapper]

As I recall, a general rule of thumb for industrial cleaning problems was:
Acid for mineral buildup
Caustic for grease/fat removal.
Is there a food grade caustic??

Ipakiz, you are right with that rule. A dairy supply house could sell you the correct cleaner.

[happy thoughts]

For grease the first thing I'd try is very hot water and Dawn dish detergent. Dawn is what they use to clean up animals caught in oil spills. Household ammonia is also a good grease cutter. I'd use a good scrub brush and limit contact time then rinse, rinse, rinse.

[TonyL]

I'm still looking for an appropriate cleaner....one that will work on plastic, is food safe, and will remove fatty/oily substances. If I could scrub on it, I think I could get it clean. But, everything has to be done through that 2" bung hole. I could pressure wash the bottom third of the drum through the bung, but cannot access the underside of the top, or most of the upper half.

I used the strongest Dawn detergent I could find, mixed with 20 gallons of hot water, sealed the bungs and laid the drums in the yard. Everyday the sun would heat the liquid, and everyday I would roll the drums, and flip them end-for-end. When I mowed the yard, I would push the drums around with the ZTR for awhile. I did this for six weeks, drained the liquid, rinsed till I was blue in the face, and let them air dry.

Still oily on my fingertips.

[BreezyHill]

You guys do relize that by using the detergent you have rendered the tank useless for sap. The plastic will hold the smell of the detergent and release it into the sap.
Here are three things to try on this barrel. The last may save the barrel for sap use.
Clorox...the tried and true clenser works wonders on removing odors and sterilizing.
Soap stone remover....milking line acid works great at removing mineral scale and will often remove fatty deposits.
Baking soda...soda not powder...is amazing for removing odors and cleaning dirty...well, most anything.

to get your pressure washer to clean around corners you will need to visit your hardware store. You are looking for two 90 degree street elbows the same size as the end of your wand and use the to angle the head. A 45 street may work better on the end than a 90. Oh ya, youwill wand some pipe dope to seal the threads. Street elbows have male and female threads to eliminate the use of a coupling.

By the way, my wife has a funny thought about plumbing fitting names...they are all named so guys can remember them. Bushings, Couplers, Unions, nipples, male and female ends. :lol:

Good Luck!

Let me know how you make out...there are a few other ideas, but I will have to find an old pic to explain that one.

[happy thoughts]

@ TonyL- The bung hole is a problem but part of the problem may also be that you let the cleaning solution sit and cool. Hot water alone will dissolve a lot of the oil and cause it to rise to the top. A few gallons of very hot water and a few rolls or shakes should get a lot of it off the sides. Try emptying it while it's still hot and repeat the process. Try some more Dawn and maybe some ammonia in the final washes. If you can find one, an angled power washer nozzle might also help reach the hard places. But that said, it just may be a lost cause. I have a barrel that contained olives and still smells like olives after repeated cleaning and a few years. Made a nice rain barrel :)

[happy thoughts]

You guys do relize that by using the detergent you have rendered the tank useless for sap. The plastic will hold the smell of the detergent and release it into the sap.


If you limit contact time to a few minutes, a small amount of detergent should not hurt. It takes time to penetrate the plastic. It would be no different then using soap on tupperware or any other plastic food container. The other products you recommend will help with odors but none work very well to dissolve grease.

And because I suggested ammonia and you suggested bleach, to be safe I just want to add in case someone happens to want to try both, that ammonia and bleach should never be mixed together. That combo produces a deadly gas that has caused a few deaths.

[BreezyHill]

Great point on the ammonia and Clorox!

For as long as I can remember detergent is a total no no in the sap business. Any thing that has an odor and does not change to a salt when dry is taboo. Not even to clean a stainless steel tank.
Plastic is porous and will even transfer oxygen thru...check out pex a pipe and pex with barrier.
We use bicarb to clean our fat fortified molasses tank. The fat sticks to the sides and hangs there. So you toss in a 50# bag, in a 3000 gallon tank, and hook the truck with about 500 gallons of water to the tank and drag the 2" hose to the man hole. Start the trucks pump and wash her down. Ten minutes she is good to go. Suck the tank dry after rinsing down with a hose and dump the truck in the compost pile. Rinse the truck out and you are done.

Toss a couple boxes of bicarb in that rain barrel and let it set for an hour and stand in awe.
Farmers use it to clean of the smell of silage off hands, clothes etc.

[happy thoughts]

Breezy I know a lot in the business discourage detergents and even the use of bleach on maple equipment. Still something that is mostly fat (butter) is going to be a lot greasier than something like fat fortified molasses which is less than 4% fat. I think this is going to take the big guns :). Do they make power steam cleaners or even a sikmple steam cleaner with a wand and nozzle? You can't get more nontoxic than plain hot water or steam. Steam would degrease it and also sanitize.

Thanks for the bicarb suggestion. I tried that several times even going so far as to make a paste that I smeared on the sides then closed it up and let it sit. Those olives must have sat in that barrel forever. I've had better luck de-skunking my dogs:)

[happy thoughts]

TonyL- 2 more thoughts on your butter barrel that you might want to consider. First even if you were to clean it fairly well, people with dairy allergies might still be sensitive to traces of oil that remain. On the flip side of that, if the container doesn't smell rancid, you could always consider any remaining oil film that mixes with the sap a defoamer. Butter has been used for that in the past. If just for home use, you might just want to try getting it reasonably clean and using it anyway.

[TonyL]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts on the butter drums......I appreciate the info greatly. I haven't given up yet, I want to try some of the ideas presented here. The drums will be used in our backyard operation, for family use only.

To the OP of this thread, sorry for the hijack....it was not my intention, I simply wanted to warn others of the difficulty in using some of the food grade barrels.

[maple flats]

Another approach is to brace the barrel upside down and spray up into it with the pressure while it drains. The angled spray nozzle may help as well. If you can spray hot or even warm water it will help. Read for your pressure washer for the temperatures it is rated and don't exceed them.