Hanging Mainline Wire

[trevorhallam]

I need some help hanging wire for my 3/4 maineline. Looking for advice on the pitch to hang it on and how to do so

[maple flats]

The ideal pitch is 3-5%, flatter works good if you pay real close attention to eliminating flat spots and vacuum robbing sags. Steeper starts to give turbulence issues. Many times however you end up needing to follow the slope you were dealt. Most often you can get in the best range with some planning. To get the ideal if dealt steeper ground, just follow the contour and rise at the ideal slope. The hardest seems to be getting slope that will work on flat ground.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Do you have a sight level? It is pretty hard to tell what 5% is without it. 5% is 5 ft over 100 ft. I like 2% myself. How many taps will you put into the main. I try to stay as low on the contour as I can with my mains so that the laterals are as steep as possible coming onto them. As for running the wire, set your hook, or loop on your anchor point at the bottom. Roll wire out on the path you determined, trim brush if needed. Choose top anchor point, set hook, or loop and pull wire hand tight. Permanently attach wire to top anchor point, then install ratchet tensioner at bottom anchor tree. At this point I get the wire in the ratchet, tighten is slightly til it's off the ground, then roll out my main and wire tie it to the wire. At this point I am almost done. I use the Mainline holders (SS Chinese handcuff things) on the top Anchor point, then start to tighten the ratchet at the bottom. I bring it as tight as I feel the wire and ratchet can take. I pull hard on the main line to take out the slack from when I tightened the wire and secure it tight. Then I will go through and add in side wire ties where needed to make it even tighter and keep the wire and main where I want it. This works for me. I am sure there are 10 ways to do it.

[unc23win]

I made this tool with a wal-mart level and a couple of metal hooks. Someone described it on here I forget who sorrry. On one end it has 1 small hook 1/4" and on the other end 2 hooks 1 1/2" and the other 1". So when you hook the small hook on the wire you can choose which hook on the other you want 1/2" = 2% and 1" = 4% roughly as a 24 inch level dropping at 1% would be .24 and not point .25 but I think it works well enough. When the level is levle you have the slope you want. I might start putting my wire ties on so the rings are on the bottom of the line. 796679677968

IMO steeper slopes are easier as Maple Flats said follow the slope and maintain it. That is how do mine. There are many ways to do it do whatever works best for you.

[syrup2nv]

I use 2% as well for my mainlines. I pretty much follow Scribner's method, only difference is I tighten the wire fully then wire tie the tubing to it. Ties every 6", tight and oriented so the twist is at the wire, not on the pipe. This way the tubing stays flat and straight. The only time I use a Mainline holder is at trail crossings where there is no wire. These sections are removed in the off season. (short sections with support poles)

[BreezyHill]

You will need a sight gauge or transit to get your 2% minimum unless you have two people and want to pace out 100' and mark where level is. Then at 2' above level mark your grade. Or do 4' at 200'. Steve Childs may paper has the effect of slope on tubing capacity. Drop me an email and I'll forward it. As a high tensile fence installer we never roll the wire out as this will damage the wire. It needs to be pulled out or you will get kinks that will cause it to break at some time. Set your drive ring/ j hook where you need and have your path marked to expidite the walk. Since it is easier to walk down hill I always put the spinners at the high end and walk down. Attach the wire to the lower j Hook and walk back to the spinner. Pull the wire tight and attach to the j hook. I hate ratchets. I made a buffalo fence with a farmer. He hired me to teach him but he already had a case of ratches so we used them. He had more troubles with them than Carter has Liver pills. I only use the Gallagher Rapid Tightener. It slips over the wire and is tightened by a tool, or a 1/2" ratchet wrench or a breaker bar. You can make the tool easily with a welder. When tightening the wire the first time to get the stretch out of the wire you will need o run it to 350 lbs. The fence springs are marked at 100# steps...350 is really tight. If you use the Gallagher knot to attach to the j hook it will pull the knot tight at 275# Good wire is good to 100000# tensile you wont brake it if it was pulled out. Knots are good to 1000# tension. A kink will break at as little as 100#to 250#.
Mains should have a 3% stretch max. Past that and tubing can elongate and become out of round. This will create leaks at saddles as the tubing shrinks in the cold.
Walk the pipe out as you did the wire, attach the bottom end as that is your start point with your tension grip and return to top. Place a tension grip on the tubing. Here is where you have to see what you have around. I use an atv and a ratched strap to slowly apply pressure to the main to get my 3% stretch. I measure out the distance and place a piece of flagging on the wire and slowly pull. Never stretch more than 500' of tubing at one time. It wont stretch evenly. Once you are at your mark you can tie off the gri[p with HT wire. I prefer to walk to the bottom and put on the wire ties up hill because as I walk down thru I will shake the main and get the stretch evened out. Then lash her down.
It sounds worse than it is I can usually put 500' up in under 2 hours with my boys. We have 3000' feet of W/D to do before Dec 1 so I am building a trailer to lay everything at one time. I only use black for D and CDL for Wet. Half the wire is up on a 2000' section as it is a Electric Fence for our cattle. The rest will be a new fence to redivid the pasture.
Let me know if you need some pics and I will get them in the morning.

Ben

[bigtreemaple]

So on a 500' section of mainline you are stretching it 15 ' with the ATV before you attach it to the wire? Do you then pull the wire and mainline side to side to get it at the correct slope with no sags? Where do you get these gallagher tighteners?

[IPL Technical Support]

I need some help hanging wire for my 3/4 maineline. Looking for advice on the pitch to hang it on and how to do so

trevorhallam,

You could also do it the easy way with wireless mainline: RAPITUBE. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDdHrRzo7qY

[GeneralStark]

Wireless mainline is indeed an option. I have had good success with it using standard 100 psi pipe or CDL Mainline (non rapi tube). I have started using 9/16" saddles and I do have some concern about the hole in the pipe becoming oblong and leaking over time. The LaPierre Branon saddles I have been using recently have a good seal with teh pipe and don't seem to leak, but some older CDL saddles I have used have leaked.

IPL Support - What do you guys recommend for saddles with rapitube and have you seen any signs of the hole becoming oblong and leaking over time.

[BreezyHill]

I only pull it side to side ever so little. I run a transit and paint the trees with a horizontal line as to where the mains need to run for height to get the slope. Since I am running around a knoll, mostly slope is very critical. I have a mains to redo yet that I am going to run the CDL HD Blue This will be the best test as it will be 2% slope all the way from the last tree to a ladder system to get it up to the sugar house. I will be using the Max Flow saddles as they have a larger hole to allow better sap flow and vac transfer. The new gaskets hve several raised rings to make a good seal vs the old flat rubber that will leak on oblongated mains. It really sucks when you take a leaking saddle off and see a tiny little valley in the rubber that the air was leaking thru. New gaskets on all saddles this season for me. By the way I don't use a support wire; just a Wire to attach the grip to the J hook in the tree with a Gallagher rapid wire tightener to maintain tension. Supports go in where needed usually around 30 feet or so. I have started planting some locust trees under the mains. They grow really fast and are a legume so they will feed the maples some nitrogen. When the are tall enough I wont need support braces...just use the locust. Four years I figure, about the time it takes 2x2 to go bad.

Its Breezy Hill for a reason.
Right now I have a mess brewing in the woods. Wind is from the south and blowing down oak limbs all over the place. Maples are loosing their leaves and seeds only, that I see from the road. Highest gust so far was 58 mph this afternoon.

[spud]

I need some help hanging wire for my 3/4 maineline. Looking for advice on the pitch to hang it on and how to do so

I use wire gripples on one end of the mainline and a rachet on the other. This is a fast and clean looking way to hang wire and support mainline. I would never use or recommend the wireless mainline method. The wireless method is a zig zag mess and looks like crap. Because of the zig zag you will also have sap flow issues and poor vacuum transfer. The wireless zig zag mess is everything maple research has suggested not to do. Keeping your mainlines fairly straight and having proper slope is whats best for high production. There is nothing straight about a wireless mainline. If you watch the video on this (strap crap) you will see what I am talking about. I am very surprised CDL sells this product.

Spud

[unc23win]

I agree with Spud. A well done support wire that is straight is WAY better looking and way faster to walk and check for leaks. I don't want to duck under or step over all those side pulls. I know it was discussed last year it is not any cheaper to do side ties and there is no way it is faster. It also seems like the more side ties you have the more chances one will fail. Another thing to consider say you decide to replace a line with a new bigger line , if you run a support wire you can cut the ties and retie the new line on the same wire removing one line and putting up a new one in one process.

Don't let the part of the video where they move the line be the selling point either also I don't see any other lines in the video some sugarbushes with all mainlines having side ties would be virtually unpassible.

[IPL Technical Support]

Wireless mainline is indeed an option. I have had good success with it using standard 100 psi pipe or CDL Mainline (non rapi tube). I have started using 9/16" saddles and I do have some concern about the hole in the pipe becoming oblong and leaking over time. The LaPierre Branon saddles I have been using recently have a good seal with teh pipe and don't seem to leak, but some older CDL saddles I have used have leaked.

IPL Support - What do you guys recommend for saddles with rapitube and have you seen any signs of the hole becoming oblong and leaking over time.

We saw some holes becoming oblong in the past when improperly installed. With the RAPITUBEV2 this problem was solved. The tube wall is now thicker, so the hole won't deform. You can use a CDL Multi-fitting or a new one that I would recommend: the CDL Maxseal (http://en.cdlinc.ca/Data/Sites/7/SharedFiles/History/nouveau-maxflow_en.pdf).

You guys are right when you are saying "zig-zags" can slow down the flow. That's why RAPITUBEV2 should only be use on lands that have 3% slope or more.

RAPITUBE is not a new product, it has been tested since 2005 and commercialized since 2008. If you want to see a real installation, just ask me. We have probably one in your area.

[BreezyHill]

I agree that a weaving line thru the woods would be more difficult to check for leaks and to inspect. When I run a line the course it takes thru the woods is determined by slope and support trees. The tie back product is a huge time and tree saver. A properly support main will be the main that produces the most. Sags do reduce flow and vac transfer. With that said the use of a wire with the plastics of today is not mandatory in many bushes. I do have scenarios that a wire is needed on our farm. I have a bush I plan to retap, and the mains will run from the woods thru a pasture, along a field, then over a road and into the sugar house. Thre W/D mains will be lashed to a HT fence all the way to the road. The two gates that it must pass thru will not have wire supports as one is only 12' and the other is only 24'. At the gates cam locks and caps will be used to connect and seal the lines for off season. I am considering using separator/booster tanks at these gates and at the road crossings. The length of the entire mains to the bush is 2400' and around 350 taps.
Back in the late '70s when my dad was really ramping up the sugar operation we had mains thru fields, woods, over roads and brooks. It was a real pain in the a## to roll up those mains every spring in the fields. He built a tubing winder from a reel off an old chopper for the pulley of an old tractor. That was a life saver.
The CDL max seal saddle is what I am switching all my mains to. The flat rubber seals of seasons ago are my largest source of leak issues. The rings of the max seal stop the leaks every time. I am also switching to the boltable saddles. Where the deer brush the lines is an issue for me. I have seen them run up to the lines and let it slide over there backs. This area did have a wire support. I removed it and put in riser supports and have had less issues. With the wire it would wave for a moment and I believe this waving was working the saddles and creating the leaks. Now it gets lifted and drops back to the ground.
For me installing wire is easy I have spinners that bolt into the atv and I can run 4000' in a couple of minutes, whip out the mini sledge drive a J in the tree, hook the wire and drive to the other end, drive a J in, hook up the winch and pull the wire tight, tie it off, whip out a rapid tightner and the tightner tool and tighten her to 300#; but it just isn't worth the time and cost. When I can do the same with the tubing set on a reel trailer and a gps measuring the run so I know how much to stretch the tubing.
I have way to many irons to juggle and life is to short. I would rather follow my sons sports teams, high school and college. So I have to use wire where it is needed and don't where it will cause me more work. I will take some pics and post wee you can see the tool options for HT wire I use. The are a huge time saver when wire is worked with.
May your wire stay tight and your tube never droop!

[BreezyHill]

80288029

Here are the two Rapid tighner handles...left is a hand tool and the right is the rapid ratchet tool. The ratchet will fill the tightener to the max of about 45 feet of wire in 7 seconds. The other pic is a single roll spinner that can be set on the ground or bolted to a flat surface. There is a spring tension nut to slow the spinner if you have to stop pulling the wire so you don't get a rats nest. Mini sledge is just a 10 pound head on a 12" handle. This way you can climb a tree and drive a J without having 2 feet of extra handle to contend with. Don't let OSHA see you on that ladder without a lanyard. LOL

[Thad Blaisdell]

I use wire gripples on one end of the mainline and a rachet on the other. This is a fast and clean looking way to hang wire and support mainline. I would never use or recommend the wireless mainline method. The wireless method is a zig zag mess and looks like crap. Because of the zig zag you will also have sap flow issues and poor vacuum transfer. The wireless zig zag mess is everything maple research has suggested not to do. Keeping your mainlines fairly straight and having proper slope is whats best for high production. There is nothing straight about a wireless mainline. If you watch the video on this (strap crap) you will see what I am talking about. I am very surprised CDL sells this product.

Spud

I am in the same camp as SPUD. I like everything straight and neat, when I need to walk the main line its a straight shot no dancing around. Run the wire do it right and it will be there for many many many years. Or until the next big thing that comes out and harmonically sends the sap directly to the evaporator. Or my next invention,,,, heated mainlines, so that it comes into the sugarhouse at 211 degrees and goes straight to syrup.......

[unc23win]

I am in the same camp as SPUD. I like everything straight and neat, when I need to walk the main line its a straight shot no dancing around. Run the wire do it right and it will be there for many many many years. Or until the next big thing that comes out and harmonically sends the sap directly to the evaporator. Or my next invention,,,, heated mainlines, so that it comes into the sugarhouse at 211 degrees and goes straight to syrup.......

Right on Thad a little extra work doing it right the first time pays off.

[Wanabe1972]

What is the longest run you can take with #12 HT for a 1 inch mainline without a support?

[mapleack]

What is the longest run you can take with #12 HT for a 1 inch mainline without a support?
It depends on how steep it is.

[Thad Blaisdell]

What is the longest run you can take with #12 HT for a 1 inch mainline without a support?

What do you mean exactly, If you use the trees in the woods and weave them a little here and there for the support you can do the whole thing, but most likely a few strategic wire tie backs are necessary.

[Wanabe1972]

I should have explained better. I need to cross a field 400 feet from the bush to the barn and only have a tree at the corner of the bush and just outside the barn.

[PerryFamily]

Set some posts to support the mainline. Could be as simple as a metal t post to a 4x4 or 6x6 . Space as necessary to keep from sagging.

[Wanabe1972]

This line is starting about 13f off a sap ladder in the bush to 5f at the barn to come into my releaser. I was thinking several pole wood tripods under the line that I could adjust up or down to keep the line without sags. This has to be removable for spring plowing and planting.

[PerryFamily]

Oh yes. You may be on to something with the tripods. My buddy has the same issue and uses the tripods. They don't seem to be real stable though. Maybe some grade stakes driven in and screwed to the tripods?

[Wanabe1972]

That's. What I was thinking to secure them I just need to get them down in the spring. I can leave the line up because his tractor will fit under but he doesn't want to have to plant his feed corn around them.

[unc23win]

I do fence posts about every 25-30'. I know syrup operation that has utility poles set about 50' probably 30' high, their's has a few sags from the road it looks like they used oversized line as well more lines to help with the transfer of sap and vacuum and theirs is sloping down at least 3%.

[BreezyHill]

You will have a 2% grade if your distance is correct. That will work fine. I would suggest pallets with 2x4 attached and number the pallets as to their order in the main line. Econo studs will also work...use a circular saw to cut supports for the 2x4 and screw everything together. 15 of these will work out to 26 feet spacing. Set the supports out and use a laser pointer at the barn aimed at the ladder top to mark the supports for height. This works well on a nice bright laser on cloudy days or do it at dusk. Use a 1" hole saw to punch a hole in the 2x4. then cut thru the middle of the hole and you have a perfect support the tubing will lay in. Paint the top of the support and it will last quite a while. If a wet dry system, do the hole on the side of the support and use plumbers tape with two screws to hold the tubing in the half holes. 1" spade bit also works or a fostner bit.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I do not recommend doing it the way breezy has suggested. you want to hang the line from the wire. Do a pole and hitch the wire to the pole.

[BreezyHill]

Thad, why would you not run supports; as the guide wire will not be able to support the weight of the tubing and the sap. The weight of the tubing on a 400' run would be about 65# as 3' = 7.8 oz. The sap in a 1" full tube is 9.42 oz/ft. So the weight of the full 400' would be 235# for a total of 300" for the 400'. Thus the distances between supports to maintain perfect grade of 2% is in the range of 23'-29'. The lack of supports on the tubing will create pooling locations of sap when the flow is not a maximum capacity thus creating slow flow locations.
Picture a freeway traveling at 55MPH...when a motorist on the side of the road is encountered. Traffic slows for only a moment to 40 mph. This slow spot creates an ever increasingly growing slow spot. This slow down does not dissipate until well after the reason for the slow down is removed. While a slug of traffic is sent down the highway. This is how surges in tubing are created.
The drop in grade of 1/4 the width of the pipe will create a pooling area for sap. The use of a hook supporting the wire alone will create a small pooling area. This pooling area will grow every time it flows to another pool at the next support.
There fore the tensioning of the wire and the tubing is of maximum importance to provide maximum flow for the system through even flow and maximum vacuum transfer.

I have a 2000' length of tubing supported on a HT fence. The use of insulators on wood posts severally hindered flow from this bush. The drop of 1/4" made surges that you could see flow down the mains. Within 200' of the bush a surge of 1 foot was produced. By the end of the run the surges were atleast 15 feet with atleast 25' between surges.
This bush will be back online for 2014 with a wet/dry line as there is no way that I have come up with to eliminate the surges caused by the insulators, that reduced vacuum to minimal amounts.

Since this length must be removed annually the wire and the tubing need to be lashed together loosely to allow tensioning of the tubing and wire separately. A reel off of an old combine or similar will make a great way to rollup the tubing in the spring and unroll in fall.

[Wanabe1972]

I looked over again today and talked to the property owner and decided to put a pole in the corner of the field. After that I can screw 2x4s to the existing fence posts that run about 300 from the barn back to the pole then I ony have to span about 80 feet. I will still run #12 HT from barn to the pole and use the. Existing fence posts to help support. It was suggested to me I could use 5/16 rope cable and a come a long over the 80 foot span from the bush to the pole. I would think that would hold it. Thanks Jeff

[unc23win]

Well that sounds like an easier solution I would still run wire the entire length though maybe in 2 spans one that has the 80' piece that will be taken down and the rest that can be left up. Not sure how many taps you are talking but that place where the 80' joins would be an excellent place for a booster because it would boost your cfms and another advantage is you can have the line sloping to the booster and the line from the booster sloping different and use the height of the booster to lower you line some also the booster would be easy to connect to any way you do it picking up 80' of tubing and wire is way better than 400'.

[Wanabe1972]

I will run wire for the entire span as I don't have to pull down the line after season. The only thing I have remove is any supports in the 80 foot span from the tree line to the pole. I will have a sap ladder at the tree line that runs to the poll as there is a training track for harness racing horses around the field that is in use year round. This is the reason for the sap ladder to get over the track. I am going to install the pole tommarrow and hopefuly get the sap ladder in.

[BreezyHill]

Put her deep. I only put one in 4' and pulled at 12' and pulled it over the first season. Went 6' on the second try and a guy wire. Stayed for the last 20 years.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Just a thought, but can you bury the line? this may prevent three issues. 1) liability of someone hitting the line on the track in the case a tree or other causes it to come down. 2) no need for sap ladder if you can maintain the slope 3) won't have to take line down from year to year.

Like I said, just an idea. But may be a more long term solution. You could even bury an extra line in case there are any issues with the original.

[Wanabe1972]

Burying it would be the easiest but don't they freeze up. How deep would it have to be?

[BreezyHill]

Getting below frost line and the cost of thimblerig multiple tubes is very costly. This works well in peat soils but in clay and loam soils not so. In the '80s we had lines laying on the ground and the freezing issue was a nightmare if there was much of any frost in the ground. Not an issue with no snow cover as the lines would eventually thaw. but then you need to run electric and an insulated pump box at the woods to be putting pressure on the line to force the sap thru a partially frozen line and when it does freeze solid you are in a world of trouble as it will take a long time to thaw unless you run iron pipe and can connect it to a wielder/generator and that. I have a relative that does this a lot commercially.
I would stick with the elevated lines and ladders. Ladders work very well after you get the theory down. I averaged .47 with half going thru multiply ladders. We haven't haul sap since early '80s due to ladders. First ladder was in late '70's on the old orange pipe and duplexable threaded double stars. Since dad was a surge dealer he knew his way around vacuum and being an industrial arts teacher could make almost anything in the metal or wood classes. Our first evaporator was a copper one.

[Wanabe1972]

After a ton of good advice from all of you and some consideration on my part I have decided to go under the track. 1st reason is the ease of doing so. I'm going to move the new ladder to the lower side of the track this will make the lift much lower maybe 8 feet. Also the line going under the track is from the topp of ladder 1 to the bottom of ladder 2. I run my ladders with a vent so in theory when the vacuum shuts off this line should drain through the vent preventing the line from freezing. This will save a lot of aggrivation of trying to support a heavy wet line over a large span. Thanks Jeff