History (1st hand, 2nd hand, 3rd hand...)

[Sugar-me-Timbers]

I saw a 1930's newspaper article on syrup in my county (Champaign County Ohio). They started tapping the second week of February and hoped to go till end of March. I started this Maple thing 3 years ago. I have tapped when the big guys around here do (I keep my eye on them). All 3 years has been the 2nd week in February or later. This year I went till the end of March for the first time. I would like to know how sugar makers tracked the info.
Anyone know what it was like in 1850, 1860.... 1900, 1910... 1950.... 1980....

[BreezyHill]

There are several web spots to look but this one does not seem to be connected to any president of the past few terms.

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/indicators/weather-climate/temperature.html

In NY we have a 10 year snowfall cycle and shoud be in a heavy part of the cycle but got very little last season and nearly non the season before. Our club trails were not open the last two seasons. Season before we were open 14 weeks.

2012 Feb had only one day that the high was below 32 degrees and lows were in the 20s. I didn't tap that year as we had a drought and a lot of high wind damage in the bush from storms.

I have been tapping since I was 5 with my dad until 2010. I have seen years we were all done and cleaned lines and shut down by March 15th, last season we had great runs on April 11th-13th. If we had tapped in January we would have had several more runs than just end of Feb thru mid April.

My suggestion would be Tap early, use new spout each season to protect the tap hole from bacteria, and capitalize on those early runs for profit building and the main season for regular costs and minor profits. Our yield last season was .47g/tap with new spouts. That was the best yield in several seasons. Shocking as we had a bad drought and no nuts on trees. The leaves changed fast and early. Some just turned brown and dropped off.

It will be interesting to see what next season brings with all the wet weather we had. The trees are a nice dark green and the tap holes are totally healed over.

I like the clear cdl spouts for next season. Good data from Acer. Tried CV spouts and they leaked... so new spouts showed best return for the money.

Ben

[spud]

I like the clear cdl spouts for next season. Good data from Acer. Tried CV spouts and they leaked... so new spouts showed best return for the money.

Ben[/QUOTE]


Ben,

What type of CV spouts did you use that leaked? If they were the old style then was it because you did not seal them together well enough? I plan to use the new CV2 this year and plan to tap early January.

Spud

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

I am curious to know where they leaked also. Been using original Cv's since 2010 and rarely have had leaks. Only issue we have had with the original cv is with limbs falling on lines and pulling stubby off of adapter. Started tapping Jan. 20 last year. This year plan to start the first week in Jan. Last boil April 16 last year. Sap still running over 400 gph. when I was pulling taps with vac on. Had to quit because syrup was turning buddy.This year, we are going to pretty much all cv2's, only leaving 2000 of the original-style cv's in woods.Will have a little over 11,000 cv's and cv2's in woods this year. They have worked very well for us. Neil.

[DrTimPerkins]

Tried CV spouts and they leaked.

Definitely not our experience. We had absolutely no problems with either the CV or CV2 this past season. Was this the black nylon or the polycarbonate version? If the nylon, what stubby did you use? Some stubby/adapter combinations are fine, others are decidedly NOT.

In general, polycarbonate spouts will tend to stick in the trees better than nylon. There is quite a bit of variation in spout heaving/leakage from year-to-year, and from type of spout and manufacturer. Sometimes one type of spout that was very good will not be good the next year....typically because the manufacturer changed something just a bit, but enough to make a difference in the way the spout stays in the tree.

[Mark]

I don't know what I am doing wrong but over the last 3 years the CV's did not run any longer than the none CV's. They may have run better but I can't measure the volume since they all join at some point but they quit at the same time. I have about 3000 of the CV's and keep looking for that area to run later.

[unc23win]

I don't know what I am doing wrong but over the last 3 years the CV's did not run any longer than the none CV's. They may have run better but I can't measure the volume since they all join at some point but they quit at the same time. I have about 3000 of the CV's and keep looking for that area to run later.

Are you tapping earlier than you did before you used the CVs?

I am planning on tapping earlier in 2014 to get some early maybe less frequent runs then hoping to extend the season. I had some CVs last year and they did run longer, but I did not tap any earlier than before.

[BreezyHill]

It was a cv2...I also used them to contain sap at the bottom of a sap ladder where I introduced a micro leak by way of a needle valve. The problem was when the lines over a brook freeze the sap would leak out of the valve onto the ground. This was a waste but worse yet was I did not want to attract any squirrels. So the light bulb turned on and I added a CV spout to the suction side of the valve. You cant imagine my dismay when I walked out the next morning to check on the lines and find a wet spot on the ground and a little volcano looking mound of ice under the CV spout. I have a video off my cell but the site wont allow it to be uploaded. It can shows one leaking with the ice in the line forcing the liquid sap out the spout.

79347935

In the pic I was able to catch a drip just before it dropped from the spout.

Great idea, but the clear spout alone at ACER had similar results. While at 18 cents it seems to be more cost affective.

[unc23win]

Thats becuase the tree will suck the ball back and block the sap when the vacuum quits pulling the ball. So if your line froze then the sap in the line comes back and comes out (most likely dripping) because the ball is not blocking it.

[BreezyHill]

So the cumulative pressure of gravity pulling the ball down and the force pushing the liquid sap up the tubing is not as much as the tree will produce in order to pull the ball and seal the orifice???

If you blow on the spot the ball seals...well that is one that I tried at least.

[DrTimPerkins]

Ok. So what you're really saying is that you used one CV spout in a way it was never designed to be used in, and when it froze, it dripped a little?

Pardon me, but that is a darn long way from saying you "Tried CV spouts and they leaked."

[DrTimPerkins]

So the cumulative pressure of gravity pulling the ball down and the force pushing the liquid sap up the tubing is not as much as the tree will produce in order to pull the ball and seal the orifice.

On vacuum...not even close.

[DrTimPerkins]

Great idea, but the clear spout alone at ACER had similar results. While at 18 cents it seems to be more cost affective.

Actually, that is not what Centre Acer reports. Nor is it what we (UVM PMRC) have found. Nor is it what Steve Childs (Cornell Maple Program) has found.

The first study done by ACER compared CV to normal spouts in tubing that had (probably) been cleaned and then stored dry for a number of years. When you store tubing in a dry place for a long time, it reaches a critical drying point and kills all the microorganisms. So essentially they were using new tubing in that work, in which case you would expect no differences....which is, not surprisingly, what they found. In the second experiment, they used "used" drops, I believe that these had been cleaned with isopropyl alcohol (which would reduce the level of anticipated benefit of the CV). They did the work in two different places. In one, they found a large "significant" increase in sap yield with the CV. In the other site, they found no difference, but the sap yields overall were really really low at the second site. This seems to be because they shut off the pumps at 4pm in the afternoon and went home. Since the benefit of the CV tends to be greater with high yield practices, it isn't surprising they found no effect with such low yields. In all of those studies there was NO replication (multiple trials of the same treatments....a necessity to get averages and do statistics), thus it is technically, scientifically, and statistically impossible to draw ANY real conclusions from that entire body work. Regardless, of the three ACER studies, two showed no effect, while one showed a large positive effect.

[sjdoyon]

Not sure what we are doing different but we've never had a CV leak on us. We've had a few stubby's disconnect from the CV during very cold temps. We tapped second week of Jan this year and trees at lower elevation ran until third week of April and upper elevation ran into the last week of April and were still running when we pulled the taps. Most of the sugarmakers in area were done first week of April, not aware of any of them using the CVs. Not everyone's situation is the same but for our operation, we see the benefit in using the CV and will continue using them.

[unc23win]

Thanks sjdoyon That is useful information. This will be my first year with my own sugarhouse. Previous 2 years I hauled sap and had to wait to tap becuase the sugarhouse I took it to wasn't ready. We see the same thing between elevations here higher elevations tend to start a little later and run a little later. By the way its not what you are doing different with the CVs it is what you are doing correctly!

[Mark]

Are you tapping earlier than you did before you used the CVs?

I am planning on tapping earlier in 2014 to get some early maybe less frequent runs then hoping to extend the season. I had some CVs last year and they did run longer, but I did not tap any earlier than before.

It takes us two weeks to tap. Some of the cv's were tapped first and some were done near the end of tapping. I spread it out a little to see what happens. They all still stopped at the same time. This year I had to wait until the snow melted to pull the taps. When they quit we had about 50% snow cover.

[BreezyHill]

DrTimPerkins


Ok. So what you're really saying is that you used one CV spout in a way it was never designed to be used in, and when it froze, it dripped a little?

Actually, is was 8 of these check valve units that were tried and they all leaked in the same fashion. When first used at the bottom of the ladder they would drain the entire 1" x350' line. The ones in the trees, I was unable to see if they were suffering the same back flow issue; but there was movement of liquid in the same fashion in the drop line as in the line of the photo at the tree with the dripping spout.

YES, I sure did use them in a fashion that it was not originally designed to for. But I think that it is what makes this industry move forward. Was it not cathedrae and IV tubing that was where the first sap line came from at Merck Industries in Argyle? Vacuum pumps were first used in the dairy industry to increase production from the cow and later used to transport the milk to bulk holding tanks long before it was used in the maple woods.

I am not saying that they all are bad in every instance; but if it is possible for a batch of plastic to change as you mentioned, is it possible that the ball is then unable to seal when the plastic changes or is this a poor batch of balls or is it that this is such a low amount of pressure that is never experienced in the tree that this cant happen?
My original intent was to save sap with a handy tool, then it was to keep mud wasps out of the valve in the off season. I was really surprised to see the check valve didn't stop the flow of sap under the pressure supplied by the freeze cycle in the line. But on the other hand there are no issues with the valves that I have left out; so success!!!

So how does the tree maintain this seal until the lines are fully thawed and frozen contaminated sap is cleared and the clean sap runs from the tree?

I feel there is a lot of information from your studies that would be fascinating if you could share.

Your view on this is important to me, since you spend so much time and passion on this. Obviously there is something I am missing so please enlighten me.

Thanks Ben

[BreezyHill]

Dr Tim,

Another question for you.

I went back and read the Cornell study,
http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/pubs/2011%20Maple%20Tubing%20and%20Taphole%20Sanitation %20Research.pdf


If one can store the spouts for a period of time and have them like new again; what would be the period of time in storage needed and would sealed in plastic be best or vacuum packed in the plastic bags.

Or could spouts and drops be stored in plastic boxes for use the following season or two seasons later?

If the drops were cleaned with peroxide, would they then be able to be reused the following season; when dried and stored?

I was looking at just using drops for two seasons with new spouts every season. Changing half the drops every year would be better use of time and less time running the drop cutter.

Reusing the drops will be a tremendous savings; and less time visiting the tubing recycling plant is a plus too.

Thanks Ben

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Tim,

Another question for you.

Ben (and all),

I am on vacation this week, so don't confuse any lack of response with anything other than the desire to take a break for a brief time.

To respond in brief....yes, innovation and experimentation is good. However your initial statement that CVs don't work was definitely far from complete, and thus confusing and inaccurate. That's kind of like saying my truck doesn't work because when I drove it off the bridge it didn't fly.

RE: your other questions. I've written and spoken on these subjects extensively. I refer you to those resources. I can't speak to what you did, as I've never tried it that way. However what I can say is that this is not what the CV spout was designed for. Another type of device might work better in that application.

Why would frozen sap move? Why would thawed (contaminated) sap in a dropline move back towards the tap hole? There is no driving force to cause this. The tree will be frozen until after the dropline, there is no vacuum in the tree pulling the sap in towards the taphole at that point, and immediately upon thawing there is pressure in the tree to push the sap away.

RE: storing and reusing drops. Not enough info to advise yet. All depends on storage conditions.

RE: tubing cleaning. UVM and Cornell are starting a 3-yr project looking at effective cleaning practices funded by NESARE and NAMSC. Stay tuned.

[Sugar-me-Timbers]

History (1st hand, 2nd hand, 3rd hand...)
I saw a 1930's newspaper article on syrup in my county (Champaign County Ohio). They started tapping the second week of February and hoped to go till end of March. I started this Maple thing 3 years ago. I have tapped when the big guys around here do (I keep my eye on them). All 3 years has been the 2nd week in February or later. This year I went till the end of March for the first time. I would like to know how sugar makers tracked the info.
Anyone know what it was like in 1850, 1860.... 1900, 1910... 1950.... 1980.... Thank you Dr. Perkins for your info. Anyone else have any info on the topic?

[BreezyHill]

Dr. Tim

Obviously you were driving a chevy.:lol:

Enjoy the vacation!

Ben