Vacuum pump releaser set up

[western mainer]

I will be setting up vacuum here and will be having 4- 3/4" lines off the releaser each no longer than 500' each. I need to have the vacuum pump 130' from the releaser would a 1" line to the releaser be large enough ?
Thanks Brian

[Moser's Maple]

Brian,
how big is your vacuum pump, how many cfm's is it???? if using 1in line the most cfm you can carry to the releaser is 8cfm. is this going to restrict the pump too much??

[BreezyHill]

Brian,
According to the latest data sheet from Cornell U. A 100' of 1" Line to the releaser will transfer, at most 20 CFM on a 60 CFM pump or bigger, on a 30 cfm pump 19 transferred, 13 cfm on a 15 cfm pump.
A 3/4" line is .44 cu" while a 1" is .78 cu"

The CFM max for 500' of 1" is 9 cfm on a 15 cfm pump and 10 cfm on 30 and bigger pump.

So the 1" to the releaser will not be big enough if you are running the 3/4" lines to any where near capacity.

If you want the data sheet send me a email.

Ben



Since 3/4" is 56% of the volume of a 1" you

[western mainer]

So what if I went with a bigger line? The vacuum pump is a Gast 2565.
Brian

[whalems]

I have the same pump. 2565 only has a 3/4 outlet /inlet on them should I go to a larger diameter pipe right at the pump then?

[GeneralStark]

The Gast 2565 will produce 2 CFM at 25", 6CFM at 20", and 10CFM at 15". Each of your 4- 500' mainlines will only handle at most 2 CFM and 200 taps so let's say that's 8CFM capacity at the releaser that you should design for. So, you want to minimize CFM loss between the pump and releaser, and since this is a low CFM pump you should probably go to at least 1.25" if not 1.5".

In terms of connecting a 3/4" pump inlet to a larger pipe, it is just a matter of using standard plumbing fittings to reduce from the 1.25 or 1.5" pipe down to 3/4".

[BreezyHill]

Yes going to a bigger pipe is always the best scenario. Larger pipes have less sidewall area in relationship to the volume.

Many loose the principles of vacuum. There are two factors to vacuum: Evacuation of air to achieve production of sap from the tree and transportation of sap to the sugar house.
While the transferal of vacuum and transportation have an effect on each other they are two separate issues.

The size of the orphic on the pump will be a choke point it does not have to be a limiting factor on the entire system. Where as a long length of pipe of the same size will have a limiting affect. After 200' of mainline the majority of friction loss has been achieved. at 100' the cfm of a 30 cfm pump and a 100 cfm pump are statistically the same.

The proximity of the pump to the releaser will have a marked affect on cfm transfer. This can be reduced by over sizing the mainline between the pump and the releaser.

Take a straw and a large lip lock bag. Place the opening of the bag in one hand and put it to your mouth and see how long it takes to remove the air. Now blow the bag up and repeat the process. So about one second?
Now place the straw in the bag and close your hand around the straw tightly so no air is let into the bag. Ok...don't do this too many times as you will pass out. LOL
Note how much longer this takes.
Now hold the bag in your and so that air can get into the bag a little. Notice how much longer it takes to get the bag flat. This is how the pump acts when there are leaks on the lines.

So... I am hoping you are not dizzy now.

The bigger the 130' the better. Check craigslist and see if you can get some 2" pvc pipe cheaper than 1.5" mainline and use that. If you could get the thimble line that the utility company uses to jacket the fiber optic lines that is great stuff. Put the check valve at the releaser...use a swing style. The spring loaded ones have a really small opening and the spring reduces your cfms. You will also want to put a ball valve on the line to shut off the vac to fix the releaser.

There is an old saying that is very true..." Size matters."

Hope this helps!

[western mainer]

So looking at this maybe I should look at getting wire and placing the pump on sight.
Brian

[BreezyHill]

The transportation part of vacuum is: ladders, and getting the sap to the sugar shack.

Sap can be lifted about 12" for every inch of vacuum. Personally I don't like having more than 16' in a single lift; but you can put several lifts in a series to get elevation changes. I have one change of 51' to build this fall. I am looking at 4 lifts on this due to the rocky terrain and hard to get my ladder to be steady up at 17' when you are swinging a sled hammer to put in the drive rings.

2% slope should be your minimum as mains can sag and create slugs of sap that greatly reduce vac transfer. Wet/Dry lines and how laterals are connected makes a difference on the sap transferal, as does the use of a y at the end of a drop. Tees cause turbulence where a y causes separation of gases and sap and a better transition of flow to the releaser.

I hope this answered your question and how the answer is arrived at.

As a 4-H leader I find that explaining the answer is more helpful than just a yes or no.

There is no question to small...just as there is no leak to small.

[BreezyHill]

No...The pump at the power source is more important to the life of the pump. The cost of running the wire you could run a 3" pvc to the releaser.

Don't over think this...just over size the vacuum supply line.

Life gives you lemons make lemon aid....just be sure you have a big enough pitcher, so I can have some too. :lol:

1.5" will be fine to run. The 2" will just be better able to reduce the surges that a mech. releaser puts into the mainline. This is minimal but is an advantage of a vertical or pump emptied releaser over the mechanical ones.

The list of things that affect vacuum is as long as your arm. An electrical pump on a long length of wire can have its efficiency reduced by an undersized wire. This will cause the motor to run slower due to less volts and possibly less hertz; both of which will shorten the motors life. Copper is expensive right now. Save the $$$ and put in a 1.5" mainline.
Vacuum is affect by everything from the tap you use to the how your pump is wired; and everything in between.

Always think what is in the future. The 1.5 mains is also going to eliminate the need to upgrade for a while, as you work toward 2000 taps.

Here is the data specs on the gast pumps. Great data sheets, good pumps.

http://www.gastmfg.com/support_technical_documents.aspx

Great questions by the way!

[western mainer]

Thanks for the help here. I will be pumping the sap up to the sugar house it's about a 25" lift.
Brian

[unc23win]

I have a Gast pump for 2014 as well. It is a 1" inlet so I am going to take it up to 1 1/2" and connect it to my extractor which is 1 1/2" as well. The bigger the supply the better. I had someone give me about 100' feet of 1 1/2" I only have to go about 5 feet. I am not sure what I am going to do for a moisture trap I might spend the big bucks and get a big one from Lapierre so that my moisture trap does not limit flow.

[BreezyHill]

There is no substitution for a moisture trap...it will save your pump from the scrap yard. The 2" cdl unit is around $180. Look on ebay for a delaval or surge moisture trap. They are usually stainless or plastic and go for around $45 to $65.
It may be better to use 2" pvc. I understand the 1.5 is free but look at the cost of the adapters. It may be cheaper to got to Home depot and pickup a short section of 2" and a 1 x 2" adapter.
Don't for get the check valve if the moisture trap doesn't have one built in. The check will save a tank load of sap from oil contamination.

[BreezyHill]

Brian, Did you say that you have 25 inches of lift to make it to the sugar house?

If so that is a supper small ladder to build. To get 2% slope over the 130' would be a 3' ladder. That is an easy thing to build with out a step ladder even. You can build it right from the ground.

How many taps going into it?

Ben

[western mainer]

I'm sorry I wish it was 25" that was a typo It's 25 feet.
Brian

[BreezyHill]

Well that is still very do able. If you want to have it so all sap comes in on vac it can be done. Some will tell you you will get less sap but I averaged .47g this past season with at least half the taps on two steps of a three step ladder with 21" at the end of a 150' 5/16 lateral.

I will help if you want to do it.

Ben

[western mainer]

I'll go out and get some better numbers on the lift tomorrow.
Thanks Brian

[BreezyHill]

Items needed: number of current taps into main
future number of taps if growth expected
elevation changed needed...inlet point of releaser for sap to height of main is located in the bush/tank location. This height is the length the ladder will need to be
distance from collection tank to ladder location. this distance * 2% gives slope of main after ladder that will need to be added to ladder.

That should do it.

[western mainer]

Have 300 on the main now but will have 500. 150' from the end of the current line and need to bring it up 29'
Brian

[BreezyHill]

Brian,
Six way spiders have a better lift efficiency than a 3/4" tube due to the ability of a micro bubble of air to be pulled up thru the line and lift the sap. One spider is good for 60 to 70 taps.
Do you have the breakdown on taps per line?
Be certain that the spider is positioned as level as possible so that all lines get equal flow. Otherwise the micro bubbles can tend to travel up only a few lines, reducing the flow of the ladder.
The spider on the top side needs to be on the top. This gives gravity action to pull the sap down out of the spider and reduces the reverse flow of opposing lines of the spider. This may still occur on low flow times. Increasing the leaker on the end of the mains will reduce this, and speed sap flow. Watch your vac gauge when adjusting leakers.
Adjust leakers to get the highest vac level possible. This takes some time to figure out and is best done on high flow times. Once they are set let them rock.
Clamp all mains connections to eliminate pull apart or extra leaks. Leaks at the spider will prematurely freeze the ladder on evenings due to the introduction of cold air cooling the sap.
Leakers set at the end of the lines are usually the highest/warmest location in the bush and keep sap moving so it is unable to freeze.
Your goal is an empty ladder at night time.
Use black line on ladders. They thaw faster and the ladder its self will cool the sap due to the flow thru the 5/16 elevator lines.
On mine, the ladder line during day time is 4-8 degrees cooler than the sloped lines into the releaser. The ladder lines do freeze about 10 minutes quicker than slope lines.
But all my lines cross a brook and freeze atleast 30-45 minutes before the bush. I run only black over the brook and am adding three more dry lines over the brook in an attempt to reduce the amount of ice in the bush.

Let me know on your tap count per line.

Ben