Oversize mains or Wet Dry

[PerryFamily]

What is the cut off point where you need a wet dry system versus oversize mains? Is it distance or number of taps?

Scenario: Current bush has 300 taps, all on 3/4 main, no more than 5 taps per lat. Total main is 1600',3 lines all terminating in one location.

I am adding onto that bush on the down hill side. Approx 500 more taps, possibly 800, making a total of 1000 taps. It is quite a ways to where the original mains end, probably 1000-1200 feet.

Question: would I get better vac transfer going with a oversize (1.25") line to where my previous tank was, or go with a wet / dry setup ?

I am thinking my laterals will be 3/4" since the bush gets narrower to the new tank location.

Pump: CDL priced out a 21 cfm, 110v air tech (oil cooled rotary vane ) pump for this 1000 tap bush . If you use 50 taps per cfm, this pump is maxed out here. Given the large amount of main line, should a larger pump be used? I am pretty diligent with leaks. Any suggestions??

Thanks in advance

[maple flats]

1600' is well over the recommended max for 3/4" main. Leader says 1000' max. I prefer wet dry, but you must decide for yourself. Wet dry has several advantages, such as quicker flow after a freeze, but it costs significantly more in expense up front. You might be OK just adding a 1" dry line over the 3/4, but that would not be the end. Since a wet dry should not have laterals entering the main wet line (wet conductor) you should cut the current main at 3 or maybe 4 spots and tee or better Y it into a new 3/4 wet line. Then add a 1" dry over top. I found the whip method faster, cheaper and as effective for tying mains into a wet/dry conductor system. The whip uses a tee just ahead of the wet/dry , facing up to separate the sap and air (gases) in the main, then each enters the wet/dry buy a Y. Put a valve in the main upstream just before the Tee. Also put a test port out past the main valve. Hook a test gauge to the port, close the valve and watch the vacuum. If it drops slowly you are good, if fast, there is a leak in that line. Then walk that main and look for fast bubbles entering the main.

[BreezyHill]

Wet/Dry. The use of an oversized mains is theoretically better; but in the environment that we work in no.

If the 1.25 sags 2" you could essentially lose vacuum transfer due to the main filling with a column of sap that limits vac transfer.

In the wet/dry you have the availability of one line to fill 100% with sap and still have one line transferring vacuum to the bush. In the event of the over supplying of the wet line the dry can carry sap and supply vac.

Send me an email to bhffeed@msn.com and I will forward steve childs data sheets and calculation sheets for cfm transfer and sizing of mains.

The file will explain how a 15 and 100 cfm pump are virtually the same at 800' of mainline.

Remember that it is not the total of all your mains in the bush that matters; but the length of a run of mains. 8 runs of 200' is not equal to a 1600' run of mains...as you will see.

The 100 cfm pump should be plenty with the info you have supplied thus far.

The use of certain taps can change your cfm guideline. The checking of the mains regularly for leaks moves you closer to the 100 cfm guide than the 50 cfm. Seating taps correctly every time on every hole moves you toward the 100 cfm further.

You will need to factor in the cost of tubing, connectors, saddles and other supplies; while adding in the parts needed to be stocked for repairs of all the different sizes of mains you will have.

The use of a 1 or larger wet line may beneeded depending on what you calculations sheet results.

Good Luck

Ben

[PerryFamily]

At this point I am trying to avoid re-doing the existing mains since they were put in last year. I had a feeling the wet/dry was going to be the answer. The 1600' of 3/4 right now is three separate lines. I dont remember the tap count on each line, but there is 300 total.

would I need to run the new wet/ dry line to where I pickup existing mains or should I run it in to the existing bush ?

Maybe a good idea to have a larger producer look at it to determine exactly what is needed.

[PerryFamily]

I will sketch out what I am talking about, may be easier to understand. If I can figure out how to post it!!

[BreezyHill]

The data sheets will tell you what you should do better. The calculate in your slope, taps, pump, etc. They really are not that hard to understand. I can also price the tubing for you...depending on where in Vt you are.
300 on a 3/4 main and good vac is over capacity.

1100' of 1" dry line will handle 700 taps, wet line capacities: 2% slope is 502, 6% is 580, 10% is 601, & 618 at 15 % slope.
Slope is amount of drop in elevation over 100' in the flattest part of the mains run; not the average drop.

7 CFM is the transferal for 1100'

[PerryFamily]

lETS SEE IF THIS MAKES SENSE.
ABC are existing. The dark lines are going to be added this fall. Excellent slope. Mains will follow small "gullys" with springs feeding the brook. Where A+B+C is, is a road. The upper side of the bush is a road as well going to the house.7914

[Thad Blaisdell]

Where in Vt are you located? If close to me I would gladly take a look.

[BreezyHill]

This looks great!
I cant tell if the line along the road to the shop is existing or not. This will be the line that needs the most consideration as it will likely have the most flow and benefit from the wet/dry design. The other lines, provided the sketch is to scale, will likely not get as much flow.
Are you using a releaser or a zero tank?

[PerryFamily]

I am in Westminster, between Putney and Bellows Falls, I believe about a hour and a half from you Thad.

I think from looking at the property, the most flow will be from the line heading to the existing 300 taps. This will pickup the 300 plus as many as possible along the way. The one closest to the road up the brook has some taps but is going to go through the culvert ( 5' culvert ) to pickup the small existing line ( 16 taps on 5/16 ) as well as some along the way.

The drawing is not to scale, its a pretty big lot. Plus the "additional bush " abuts another bush I am working on which was tapped several years ago and had 550+/- taps then. I hope with a little creativity I can get all to one central location as the abutting property is off the grid and has a long narrow driveway. Too narrow for my dump truck with tank. Also I may not need as many lines coming to the tank they were hypothetical. Keeping 5 taps per lateral I may or may not need them. The shop is basically built into the bank and the grade rises quick. The tank and releaser will be the lowest point on the property. All of the trees on the lot now have never been tapped, and the abutters only for a couple years.

I am really trying to achieve a high vac situation here and want to do it right. I was under the impression a zero tank can not stand the high vac 25"+? There are several large producers all around this bush ( 26k + taps ) and all have said vac over 20" is a huge huge difference. CDL priced the pump and a electric releaser but i am concerned about a loss of power situation.

Thanks for all the input, hopefully with enough suggestions I can find what works best here.

[PARKER MAPLE]

Jason, my buddy on last ear beside the school Alan will probably take a look at it for you. Just honking he's really close and dose this stuff all year long. I call him with any questions I have every year. Dustin's sugar house alstead

[BreezyHill]

Send me a PM and I will put it in my tubing design software. It uses a aerial photo and topography. You can see the tree tops to help calculate taps.
Ben

[PerryFamily]

Well I walked this property today with my tubing guy. Looks like there are some maples but no where near as many as I hoped. I guess it could be done but the cost per tap would be really high. Just too spread out. I still have a few more bushes that I have talked to so I will try to see about those. One has not been used for years as was said to have 2000 taps. Gonna call him tomorrow.

I think I will add vacuum to the existing 300 on this bush.