Small timer in sticker shock on releasers, go bender or go new Lapierre hobby?

[Starting Small]

So I start talking to a buddy of mine who is willing to give me a rotary vane vacuum pump that he said was used for a printing press. So I think I am in really good shape from a cost stand point. All I have to do is buy a releaser, no big deal right? Well I was not anticipatng $600 plus shipping for a hobby releaser and not many used ones come around much less than $600 anyway. The bender is an option but from what I understand I may not be able to utilize the full vacuum potential of the pump with one. I am thinking around 150 taps this year and growing maybe 50 taps per year for the forseeable future. What are your suggestions? My budget is almost non-existant and what little I do have I was saving for mainlines, laterals, taps etc. I am open to any thoughts, thanks guys!
-Dave

[500592]

I found a used bernard one for 300 something, it works great, if you look there is plans on here for a homemade releaser that could be built cheap. I had a bender and it worked great and I know a few guys on here who ran them 21-23 in and all they had to do was add a couple of nuts on top of the float. If a bender is all you can afford then go for it and next year you can buy the hobby one. I am thinking in a couple of years I am going to either buy or build a double releaser. Then use my single in another section.

[Starting Small]

Thanks, i think that is what i am leaning towards myself. Some vac is better than no vac! Thanks for reassuring me of what i was already leaning towards.
-Dave

[BreezyHill]

IN the last three weeks on ebay there have been two surge milk panel releasers. This included the water separator, electric pump, glass receiver and probe with control board. $150 and $125 shipping was what I paid for one out of Wisconsin. These are good for up to about 4000 taps. Just hook in a vac pump and you are good to go. Hang it on the wall with 4 lag bolts thru the holes provided.
Cant get mush easier than that or cheaper. The pumps sell for over $400 as it is a stainless steel impeller pump. Run for decades without issues. Plastic impellers 5-10 years depending on fm in the sap.

Key word search: surge glass receiver...jar on now for $50.

Ben

[Dennis H.]

I used a Bender for a few years and do have to say that they work great for some one who wants to start out with vac.
Not knowing what the spec's are for the vac pump that you got your hands on you may find that the vac pump does not have enough cfm's for the Bender.
The way the Benders are designed there will always be a very small vac leak at the top. not a real big deal when running at 15" of vac. Now crank it up to 22-23" that small leak becomes a lot BIGGER, and will require a much bigger vac pump.
I ran a system with a Bender and a SP11 piston pump. Worked good till I threw a second Bender in there and the vac leak dropped. The SP11 just couldn't keep up with 2 Benders.
The SP11 is rated for about 5.5 CFM
Now I am using a new style Lapierre Hobby with the same SP11 and I can run that setup all day long at 24".

You can use a Bender very effectively in a small tubing setup but just be fore warned that if your plans are to run higher vac levels you will need a pump that can overcome the vac lost to that leak on the Bender.

[Starting Small]

That is a good point about the cfm's, didn't even think about that as it relates to the small leak on benders. I will be picking up the pump in a week or so and I will report back on the cfm's.
-Dave

[heus]

In my opinion there are many other types of equipment in the maple industry far more overpriced than releasers. To name a few: evaporators, ro's, and tubing tools.

[jmayerl]

So since you all think everything is so overpriced, start building professional grade equipment and selling it for less than offered already.

[madmapler]

I ran the smaller bender last season at 25" and 100 or so taps with no problem at all. I think it would handle 150 alright. It kept up with 225 gallons of sap on one day. The bigger one will easily handle more than that. You'll just have to play with the weights a little with that high of vacuum. A lot of those printers use gast 1550 pumps which is a good match for a bender.

[Starting Small]

That is definitely what I am going to do then, I appreciate the encouragement and the personal experiences. Probably the only time in my life I cannot wait until winter, thanks guys,
-dave

[Starting Small]

http://www.gastmfg.com/product_detail.aspx?ProductID=134&ProductTypeID=21

I came across this description of a gast 1550. I see a couple of different cfm's listed and I also see max of 28 inches of vac but also 20 inches max. Anyone guess how to read this? Thanks,
-Dave

[BreezyHill]

http://www.gastmfg.com/support_technical_documents.aspx

Check out this site. This lists several different 1550s the one I checked was the 20" pump I would say as at 25" it had 0 CFM. Without testing a setup of a running bender to see how many cfms were left on the main line I would guess it will be low.

Just think the air that leaks around 50 taps that are not seated well can equal one cfm.

Also check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOnmFMBgU10

Bender in action on a 1550 with a gas motor.

In the video you can see a major/ common error on vac setup. The vacuum supply line is very much under sized, thus restricting the transfer of vacuum to the water separator and then to the releaser. The use of the black main line would supply more cfms to the releaser and then to the taps.

Ben

[Starting Small]

Good video, I see what you mean about using a larger diameter vac supply line. If the outlet coming off the vac pump is too small of a hole to fit a larger diameter line, is a simple screw on clamp tightened around the line and smaller fitting what most people do to accomodate? Thanks,
-Dave

[madmapler]

The pump I got 25" with was a gast 2065 which is rated for higher hgs than the 1550. I can tell you that I did get 22" with a 1550 on the same set up but I ran the pump at between 2000 and 2100 rpms. Probably not a good idea for the long run.They're rated at 1750.

[spud]

Good video, I see what you mean about using a larger diameter vac supply line. If the outlet coming off the vac pump is too small of a hole to fit a larger diameter line, is a simple screw on clamp tightened around the line and smaller fitting what most people do to accomodate? Thanks,
-Dave

According to Steve Childs in his book on vacuum one of the big mistakes people make is undersizing the vacuum line from pump to releaser. If not sized right then half of your CFMs will be lost before you even reach the releaser. I use 3 inch vacuum line from pump to moisture trap and then to releaser. The overall span is about 20 feet.

Spud

[heus]

Try a Gast 3040 its the same as the 1550 but larger. It is rated at 40cfm. A little lower vac than a 2065 (21-22 hg) but the cfms would allow you to use a leaky bender or multiple sap lifts. I got mine for $80 off of ebay then bought a 2 hp electric motor from tsc. Ran it continously for several days last season.

[BreezyHill]

The clamp idea is not the best, a threaded reducer used to enlarge the thread size is better as it will not leak if thread compound is used. I like the blue/green product that doesn't harden. Teflon tape can eat a pump alive so don't use that.

Think about sucking air thru a straw. The smaller the stray the longer it takes to get a breath. The same is true of a short straw vs a long straw. That is how line friction principles work.

Now pinch a little spot in the straw...that's why you don't want any line restrictions. The trick is to weigh the options...stainless fittings vs oversized main with plastic fittings.

Now I am not saying to go around and suck on a bunch of plumbing fittings in home depot...but do take a drop section of 5/16 tubing and put a tee and a drop on, cap the last end of tee...now suck thru it.
Now make the same thing with a y...note the difference of resistance.

Now suck water thru each.

Limit all restrictions to supply more vac to the tap hole...this starts at the pump and goes all the way to the tap hole.

Thus tees are not so good, y are better.

Put a few on a lateral and see the difference first hand.


The running of a pump at over speed is not super good for the pump, but by using synthetic oils you can reduce friction and heating to some extent. The heating is the biggest issue with over speed. Friction is increased and the oil loses it ability to lubricate, thus creating more friction. Keep her cool.

Difference between 22 and 25" is 15%-21% production. This can be often duplicated by better setting up laterials, proper sizing of mains, and updating connections to limit restrictions.

[GeneralStark]

Yes, Youtube videos provide all sorts of insights into what to do and what not to do. There are a couple things I notice about the bender releaser in the posted video that seem to make it a poor choice for sugaring applications of you are hoping to run high vacuum and have good vac. transfer to the woods.

#1: The diameter of the fitting the vacuum pump is connected to on the releaser appears to only be about 1/2" at most. Even with a larger vac. line, say 1" or 1 1/4", there is a major flow restriction there. I can't imagine these releasers were designed for high vac. as you could seriously injure a cow much above 10" or so right? All releasers designed for sugaring have considerably larger diameter connections, at least 1 1/4".

#2: The connection used for the mainline in the video is below the sap level, and while it looks cool to see the bubbles coming in, this is less than ideal in terms of vac. transfer to the woods. With air and liquid in the mainline, air flow will be reduced dramatically. Perhaps a manifold could be added to raise the level of the incoming mainlines so sap never pools up in the lines.

While releasers manufactured for sugaring are certainly more costly that these dairy style units, they are clearly designed for the task. Sure for a hobby guy or gal just looking to have fun with vac. they are probably a good fit, but if you are looking to actually build a sugaring business and make some money doing so, it is probably worth the investment in the proper equipment.

[BreezyHill]

SS...don't pank yet... the vac issue of the mainline coming in is an adjustment that can be made so that the jar dumps sooner.
The vac tubing was also just a common error that is made by producers in their first years.

Learn from other's mistakes...it is a lot cheaper that way.

We all crawled before we learned to run. There is always a market for these smaller dairy units; then you can always step up to the six gallon jars and a stainless pump.

Once you have made your first $5,000 you can start buying the more costly toys.

[Starting Small]

I have been learning quite a bit lately, I appreciate everyone being so willing to help. I did well last year selling syrup and honey from my bees. I took that money and invested in a 2X4 drop flue, large sap storage containers, sap pump, and some other equipment that I needed so now I will be scrambling for cash till I can sell more honey this fall. I figure that money will go to taps, tubing, mainline, punch tool, etc.
-Dave

[500592]

You don't need a punch tool you just need the right size drill bit.

[500592]

Oh another thing is to buy what you can afford and remember you can always use a cheap pump and bender a year or two then buy a better pump and releaser. That is what I did so the first year I had a bender and gast 1550 then I got a real releaser for cheap then I used a dairy vac pump that came with the evaporator I was able to run about 18-19 inches with that then this year I got a used liquid ring the other week for like 500 but it's 3hp 3 ph so I need a 2-300 dollar vfd but I am hoping to run 27-28 wih only 4-500 taps on it next year I think it is doable. Good luck.