fire brick

[Brad W Wi]

I'm going to be setting up my new evaporator this week end. I'll be putting full fire brick in it. My question is some people put it in loose and some mortor it in. I guess I don't want to shake up that cat in a bag about loose verses mortor. Has any one used some of the caulking type material that they sell for fire places? It's rated to 3000 degrees, I thought that running a bead between the layers would hold it together. It will just be leaning against the stainless steel sides. It's a 2x8 Dallaire.

[forester1]

I'm not sure about that material, it might be ok. I know you can buy refractory cement premixed in 1 gallon tubs. It spreads like peanut butter but a bit more sticky. I think they were about $15 4 or 5 years ago from a building supply. Just doing between the bricks you would only need maybe two.

[Jim Brown]

Brad: As and FYI be sure you go to SEARS and by a coulpe of masonary saw blades for your electric hand saw. They make the job a lot easier. Don't try to cut them clear through just 3/8 of an inch or so and they will break with a tap of a hammer. You will break some I'm sure but sure worked when I put 125 full ones in mine!
Just a thought
Jim

[Sugarmaker]

Brad,
We used the refractory cement and have been very happy with it. After 5 years it is still holding very well.

The cement seals the heat from your stainless too.

Are you putting in a layer of heat shield material against the stainless? if I was putting a shiny new stainless evaporator I would add the recommended blanket material against the stainless then the brick. That will keep your rig looking new for years! :D :D

Regards,
Chris

[Brad W Wi]

The place I bought it from said if I weas using full brick, which I am, I would not need the fire board. I hope he was right because we started bricking it up this past weekend.

[Fred Henderson]

He was wrong in my opinion. Firebrick is not a good insulator. I am going with 1" of ceramic fiber and then firebrick also I will use the light weight insulating firebrick under the flue pan.

[Jim Brown]

Brad; Sometimes it is not so but I always thought "More Was Better' since you are talking about 3000 degrees
Thanks
Jim

[SteveD]

I apologize for my ignorance... but here goes....

When using the full sized fire brick, it sounds like some folks on here are laying these bricks with their flat surfaces horozontal, and stacking them up..one on top of the other. It appears others are laying the full sized bricks on their edges and stacking others on top...edge to edge. One way will give a about a 2" thick wall, and the other way will create about a 4" thick wall. Which method is considered "standard"...if there is such a thing?

Also, when bricking up the sides of the firebox that "flare out" as you go up...do you "stairstep" or offset each successive layer of firebrick to accomodate the slight slope? And how do you keep the bricks from compacting the ceramic blanket between them and the stainless steel walls, if you decide to use ceramic instead of..or in addition to... archboard?

Do most folks fire brick the sides of the ash bin area below the grates as well? Does anyone ever firebrick the concrete floor beneath the ash bin area?

Steve

[markcasper]

Brad, I used what they call "insulation arch board". I think i bought it from sugar bush supplies out of Michigan. After using it and finding out the results, I would never NOT use it. With just the bricks, you will likely feel the heat loss and will likely warp the stainless over time.

You probably don't want to hear this, but I've been there. Even if it doesn't warp the metal, it sure is nice standing next to the side and not have to feel your legs burning.

I also feel the arch board serves as cheap insurance if a brick or two were to ever bust apart or similar, Mark

[mountainvan]

Brad, 2" is standard on all the fireboxes I've seen. On fireboxes I've done I cut the first layer at an angle with a wet saw so the bricks sit flush on the wall. It's more work in the beginning but worth it in my opinion. Ceramic blanket needs to be pinned to stay in place on the sides, use the rigid arch board. I've never bricked below the grates.

[forester1]

SteveD-
I put 1" brick against insulation board and refractory cement between the bricks only on the narrow edges, not on the arch board. 2" brick on the bottom. I think you would want smooth sides to keep the flames and convection going smooth through the firebox. Stairstep sides would block and interfere with the flow of the heat through the firebox. I bricked under the grates since I had extra free 2" firebrick and put the whole evaporator raised up on 8" cemented in block. So there is enough space for ash to build up under the grates.

[HanginAround]

We used one inch insulation board, then bricks on edge (2"), sealed with high temp cement on edges. The first course, I just used lots of cement on the bottom edge so I could lean it back again the wall to set the angle. Those bottom edges got covered with castable refactory later. On the bottom near the door sill, we put 1" brick and then 2" on top of it. The back end of the firebox was vertical, and we had lots of brick, so I put insulation board, 1" brick on edge, then 2" brick on it's flat, for a total of 6", a solid wall that will be there for a long time.

Click on the pic for the full-sized version:
http://www.ThePixPlace.com/usr/4822/i_HPIM0450.JPG (http://www.ThePixPlace.com/img82543.html)
http://www.ThePixPlace.com/usr/4822/i_HPIM0451.JPG (http://www.ThePixPlace.com/img82544.html)
http://www.ThePixPlace.com/usr/4822/i_HPIM0452.JPG (http://www.ThePixPlace.com/img82545.html)
http://www.ThePixPlace.com/usr/4822/i_HPIM0453.JPG (http://www.ThePixPlace.com/img82546.html)
Edit: Apologies... it seems my picture hosting site has met a sudden death, I'll find a different place to host them soon.
Edit2: Pics work now, uploaded to another pic hosting site.

[Sugarmaker]

Hanging,
Man that is some nice brick work!
Brad,
Hate to ask but whats happening???
Someone ask abut the brick laying flat or standing? I stood mine on edge. they were full brick and this filled under the width of the rails and did not take away from the inside size of the fire box. Brad as several have said And I wished I had, is to have the arch board in place then the brick. I have to admit that I do thinks half cocked most of the time and have the cart in front of the horse a lot. Our rig runs fine with out the arch board but I did have to spend time polishing up the sides to make them presentable. Remember My rigs is a antique restoration rusting castings 60 years old that came from a pile of weeds. A little discoloration shows that we are doing business!

Regards,
Chris

[HanginAround]

Thanks... this was kind of a rush job... only started bricking Mar 8, the customer boiled within about 2 days, and made about 1800 US gals of syrup. Had about 6000 tapped, and will have upwards of 50,000 when he gets set up. Man, I was sore from one end to the other after crawling around in that firebox for 2x10 hr days. The firebox is 8' x 6' x 2.5' approx.

[maplehound]

I am also thinking about rebricking my arch. When I first bricked mine I didn't use any morter. I was told that it would be best not to because The bricks need room to expand. I was shown an arch that the bolts that held the sides together where elongated to the point that they tore out. So how do you prevent that? Is it the type of morter?
Ron

[HanginAround]

I'm not sure of all the ins and outs, but firebrick should have a very low co-efficient of expansion. Your steel should be much higher, though it doesn't get near as hot. In addition, the high temp cement is only about 1/16" to 1/8" per course, so doesn't amount to much. In the evaporator pictured above, the bricks only come to within 3/4" of the top rail, so room to grow, the bricks aren't jammed tight, and can slide up on the insulation board. I did put a bit of cement on the top course, so I guess that might tighten somewhat, but I've never seen one forced apart because of tight bricks, so I don't think it will be a problem. In summary, I don't really know 8O :D

Anyone else every seen damage due to brick expansion?

[maplehound]

The damage I was shown, pushed the front off the arch

[HanginAround]

I'm surprised, but I guess it could happen. I also have a bit of space at the back end of my side walls, and then insulation board, so I guess there is some room for them to grow.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brad,

I have no insulation between my SS arch sides and firebrick and it is discolored some, but that is about it after 3 years. I would guess that probably 90% of the evaporators out there are the same way. Not to say that insulating board isn't better, I just didn't know any better. :? Leader says not to use ceramic blanket because it will sweat in the summertime and trap moisture and in the wintertime it will freeze and possibly bust the brick or push out the archfront. This may have been the problem maplehound was referring to and didn't know what caused it. :?

[Fred Henderson]

Brandon, Now that is interesting. I will have to research that sweating some more.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Fred,

Didn't say it was a fact, but that is what they told me. I was told that people at Leader has seen it after it happened. :? They usually steer you right and have the right answers, so I have no reason to doubt as it does make sense. :?

[The Sappy Steamer]

I'm a furnace operator in the steel industry. We use fire brick,with mortar, backed by 1/4" insulating "paper" on our furnaces. We have eight 1" stainless steel hold down rods that attempt to keep the furnace from "growing" in height. The refractory starts a drying process with a "lazy flame",then slowly elevates to 1600 degrees where it remains for a couple days. Then it is cooled down slowly before being put to use.With all these precautions, it still lifts over two inches. The brick needs room to grow. The mortar has little or nothing to do with the expansion. I dry set full three inch fire brick on my home made evaporator, and it grew alot. I hope this helps. Good luck,
Dan

[HanginAround]

That's good to know.... the 2" expansion is over what distance? In the one I did, I'm sure I have room for it, but maybe I'll pay closer attention to it in the future. I have about 3/4" on the height, and an inch for the length, plus the steel should grow a bit too.

[The Sappy Steamer]

The 2in is over a distance of about 7 ft. Sure sounds like you have plenty of room for expansion.

[HanginAround]

The firebox is 8' though 8O hope it's enough :? The evaporator is about 3 hrs from me, so I might never see it again, would be nice to go back and have a look at my job after a few yrs. I don't recall any specific instructions from the manufacturer about leaving room for expansion, but that doesn't mean there weren't any. :roll:

[maplehound]

When it comes to evaporatores, the Mnaufacturers don't give much specific instructions on anything. Wish they did. At least on mine I didn't even get any instuctions on how to assemble the float boxes or piping to conect the pans, or installing the sight glasses. It was all guess work and calls to the dealer. My dealer did give me a copy of a bricking plan that he came up with but that is all I got in writng.
Ron

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I did get some instructions with mine but that seems to be the exception and not the norm. :?

[HanginAround]

They sent a bunch of pics of all the plumbing, so that was not problem, and they did send some bricking instructions, but I don't remember many details, nor any mention of room for expansion.

[forester1]

I remember I was told the cast iron grates expand a lot so you don't want brick up against the grate ends.