Cleaning pans with sap

[KING MAPLE]

How long to you leave raw sap to pans before scrubbing and rinseing out.

[maple maniac65]

until it no longer stinks and looks like old frog eggs on top and the pans are clean

[Bruce L]

We have already cleaned ours,, if you have a flue pan usually there are lines on top of the sap where stuff has lifted off the sides of the crimps, and the syrup pan I will just stick my hand down in to see if the bottom feels loose and clean.

[jrgagne99]

Ok, I'll bite...

In this day and age, it seems highly unsanitary and irresponsible to leave sap (or sweet) in the pans for several months in effort to get them to "self-clean". This is an example of an old-time sugarmaker methods that have no place in modern sugarmaking. It's because of this kind of behavior that government ends up stepping in and regulating/legislating, to an even greater extent, how we make syrup.

This method was probably discovered by old-timers who were either too busy, too lazy, or too burned-out to scrub their english tin pans in a timely manner after the season ended. Now-a-days, with food-grade pan acid and stainless pans, there is really no excuse for letting it go this long. Pans should be kept reasonably clean at all times, including within a week or so after the season ends. Do you think UVM-Proctor or Cornell let fish-egg-looking sludge grow in their pans for three months before they get around to cleaning them? No way!

If you ask me, you should be completely comfortable about showing every aspect of your operation to your customers. From boiling, to bottling, to clean-up,... everything. If you're not comfortable showing off your pans with three-month old frog-egg sludge and mold at the Farmer's Market, on the same table as your syrup for sale, then you shouldn't be cleaning them that way.

Let's all do ourselves a favor, self-regulate, and keep the government off our backs.

That's just my two cents, and now I'll get off my soap box. Anybody else want to hop on?

[BreezyHill]

I would have to agree. There is also the issue that leaving this home grown/ all be it natural, acid will also start to weaken the pan as it will be eating away at the metal as well. I recall seeing a pan at a show that was pitted due to this very cleaning method...repairs were to costly and a new pan was purchased by the owner the tag read.

But I still clean my tubing at the end of season. I have seen the stuff that comes out.

Ben

[500592]

I tried this method it works great and isn't as bad looking as it sounds. How do you think they make vinegar? That is all that is happening in the pans. I rather do this then to use those harsh acids. I rather drink the maple vinegar then a drop of that pan acid. Just my 2 cents and I will continue to use this method.

[GeneralStark]

I agree as well. I have used this method and never will again. That said I do soak pans for a week or two in a water/vinegar solution after the season, but after the pans have been rinsed and scrubbed after the last boil. I prefer soaking and elbow grease to acid.

Additionally, ro permeate is excellent for cleaning pans. I know it has been mentioned here, but circulating permeate through the pans with a small pump is reported to work very well for cleaning pans between boils. I have not tried this myself but will in the future.

[KING MAPLE]

I cleaned pans as I posted original question. It worked great...........All natural......No chemicals............
I will continue to use this method........

[Bruce L]

Glad it worked for you, I don't know if I would leave the sap for this long though. As far as the earlier post about being lazy doing it this way I totally disagree. It kind of breaks up the cleaning schedule, and it would be nicer to have it all done at once, but I have absolutely no worries about acid residue in the pans next spring. We had a sugarmaker near us who would not bother washing his buckets until he was ready to put them on the next spring, that I would call being lazy, and I would think by the time you scrubbed off the dry sap from the buckets you wouldn't feel like hanging them out to get dirty.

[jrgagne99]

I might have gone a bit overboard in my post last week, but I still think that a sugarmaker should be perfectly comfortable showing every part of their operation to his customers, with pride. It don't think that's an unreasonable standard to strive for. Personally, I would feel like a dirtbag if a customer visited my sugarhouse in mid-July, only to discover 3-month old sappy fish-egg sludge and floating mold residue in my pans. Pretty sure that would kill the sale.

[stoweski]

I used this method last year at the end of the season. While boiling I added quite a bit of water to fill the pans as high as possible (above the scale line). Let it sit for a month then drained and took my electric pressure washer (at a low setting) and sprayed it out. Everything came off and was nice and shiny.

That said, this year I drained everything out of the pans, quickly rinsed with water (still don't have an RO), refilled & boiled the water while adding a 1/2 gallon of vinegar to the pans (2x6 evaporator). I let it sit for two days then drained, rinsed, and pressure washed. I got the same results.

I'll be sticking with the vinegar wash and eventually use permeate from the RO that I'll be getting soon. I find there is much less of a stink (and slime) by using vinegar & water (even though I can't stand the smell of vinegar) and it's quicker so I can get on with my life after maple.

One thing that I'd love to figure out is how to make maple vinegar. I know in the past people have left sap in the pans and it turns to vinegar but after seeing what comes of sap that sits for a month I'm not so sure I want to taste it. I've posted the question before but never got a straight answer. Oh well.

Also, someone mentioned a while ago that leaving sap to sit in the pans for 2-3 months may actually eat through the metal causing pinhole leaks. Any truth to this?

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

You might of lost a sale too if you put a jug of Acid cleaner next to your syrup at a farmers market. I'm not picking a fight, just offering that there are many ways of doing things, all effective. I have never used acid and never will as I fear the residue. I use white vinegar and elbow grease, but have let sap set in the pans for a month before and it works amazingly well. Much less elbow grease needed. I intend to use permeate from now on.

I don't think this is an unsanitary practice. Unsightly maybe, but I would rather drink fermented sap over acid wash any day of the week and so would your customers, just ask them.

I will agree that waiting til July to get around to cleaning pans is pushing it. However, I doubt the FDA or any other food body will have a concern with letting sap ferment in the pans for a couple months. I could be wrong, but suspect they would be much more concerned about the acid chemicals used for cleaning, where they are stored, when purchased, how much used, etc.

[jmayerl]

You might of lost a sale too if you put a jug of Acid cleaner next to your syrup at a farmers market. I'm not picking a fight, just offering that there are many ways of doing things, all effective. I have never used acid and never will as I fear the residue. I use white vinegar and elbow grease, but have let sap set in the pans for a month before and it works amazingly well. Much less elbow grease needed. I intend to use permeate from now on.

I don't think this is an unsanitary practice. Unsightly maybe, but I would rather drink fermented sap over acid wash any day of the week and so would your customers, just ask them.

I will agree that waiting til July to get around to cleaning pans is pushing it. However, I doubt the FDA or any other food body will have a concern with letting sap ferment in the pans for a couple months. I could be wrong, but suspect they would be much more concerned about the acid chemicals used for cleaning, where they are stored, when purchased, how much used, etc.
I hate to burst you bubble but white vinegar IS acid. It is actually a very strong acid that is diluted with water.
I totally agree with using permeate as the best method of cleaning pans........I just don't have a RO.......

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I can't argue with the fact that vinegar is an acid. What I would say is that I would take a sip of the vinegar. Even put some on my french fries occasionally. Can anyone say that about acid wash?

[jmayerl]

So you must also never drink milk? Milk stone remover is used in every dairy farm, every day to clean lines. This is the acid we use and I assume ever one else does. It is completely safe, and approved for stainless when used as directed.

[PerryFamily]

Bottom line is Pan Acid wouldn't be available for the specific use of cleaning pans if is was not safe. If used properly there should be no worries

As far as letting sap ferment, once "big brother" finds out that this used by some people I feel they would frown on it. Before you know it, it will be another question on the INSPECTION sheet. How many other FOOD products allow their product and equipment to mold and ferment to clean it ? My guess is zero.

With all of the laws changing and requiring inspections I feel it os better to police ourselves before we are mandated to do what should really a "best practice" scenario.

Just my 2 cents

[BreezyHill]

I think you just hit the nail on the head jmayerl.

For an FDA inspection you will need to have, by the way I know because my feedmill is FDA & Home Land Security Inspected, an Operation Proceeder Book. This will list everything you do from preseason cleaning and checking equipment is functioning correctly, to what you do at the end of season for cleanup and storage of equipment for the off season.

You cant forget anything. Especially safety equipment like, check valves in the vacuum line. Deviate from this protocol and it can be a warning or fines. If you wrote down fill pans with x gallons of sap for fermentation in the pan for x days to loosen scale buildup then wash and rinse for x minutes, I bet it would be fine. But if you don't use x number of gallons and x days...well lets just say you don't want to be on the wrong end of an inspector.

I was, for having to much information on a feed tag. It took two calls to Washington DC by a Medication manufacturer to get him called off. He spent 5 days combing thru my records, looking at bills of lading to customer invoices just trying to find something wrong to save face. He was wrong and he didnt like his bosses boss sending him an email. In the end he left and has never come back here again. He even watched us mixing as he read the OP book. That book took along time to write out but it saved my butt.

Simple put, vinegar is an acid, home made all the better, as long as we are following safe proceeders that are not dangerous we will all be fine. BUT... if it is deemed unsafe, by some pencil pushing, desk jokey.... you better not be doing it.

I just have seen first hand what can happen and it was the end of a good pan. Now it may have sat to long... I don't recall. But that doesn't mean that if some one doesn't rinse the farm acid correctly you cant run into the same dilemma.

I am just glad that you all are cleaning your pans., lol

[Super Sapper]

Aged cheeses and high end beef are allowed to mold and then it is just scraped off.

[BreezyHill]

High end beef...that is a miss conception. That was a practice that started in Europe that was common practice. Before there was refrigeration a beef was hung when it was slaughtered. If the temperatures were not cold enough to allow the meat to nearly freeze mold would grow if it was not consumed rapidly enough. It was found that the liquids (enzymes) that were secreted by the mold started to break down the muscle fiber; thus making the meat more tender. In Quality beef today; like certified angus, the animal is feed a diet that will make the meat more tender. This is also why bull calves are castrated...testosterone makes the meet more fibrous. The area that the mold is grown on must be removed or a person will get sick. Pathogens like ecoli, salmonella, and other gram negative bacteria also contaminate the meat with molds. Back in those days the diet of the animal was strictly grass, thus making the animal much less palatable due to the lack of flavoroids from the grains and grain by products that animals are feed now days. This is were the antaeg, You are what you eat, originates. In current times one takes a grass fed cut of meat and marinades it for a few hours to a week depending on the desired tenderness and flavoring. While a high end beef is grain feed and checked for marbling and finish; now days. So; please use the term aged beef and not high end. The high end term is really about the quality of the cut that is found on the high end of the hanging animal...thus, Living higher on the hog...refers to not eating the roast cuts, but bacon, ribs, and highest being the ham.

Oops sorry for the history lesson but as a beef producer there is a lot of misinformation or conception that hurts the industry...as does this subject for maple producers.

The end result of what ever product you use is the same...clean health pans. It is just a matter of how one gets to the end result. Both are acids, they do the same job but one is home made using all natural ingredients and the other is a purchased product. When use correctly the results are the same. I fear that I for one rushed to judgment; and did not consider all the facts. While it is not as pretty a site as a shiny pan with sap jumping and rolling. It is one way to get the pan shiny and bright. Not every part of any items production is going to appeal to all consumers but it is how the product is safely produced for consumption.

[DrTimPerkins]

As a general rule....if you like a certain food....you may not want to look too closely into how it is made.

As far as the "sour sap" method of cleaning pans at the end of the season....it is a widely accepted practice, at least in the maple industry. Not sure what the FDA would think, but if they did accept it, you would want it documented (as with everything). Essentially the sap turns into acetic acid (vinegar) after a period of time, which dissolves most of the scale/niter in the pans (slowly). Using acid (typically phosphoric) does the same thing, just faster (and with less smell). Frequent permeate or condensate soaking/rinsing works well for "in season" cleanings of lightly scaled pans, with acid being added if you need to get things done in a hurry, or if the scale build-up is heavy.

[Kyle M]

High end beef...that is a miss conception. That was a practice that started in Europe that was common practice. Before there was refrigeration a beef was hung when it was slaughtered. If the temperatures were not cold enough to allow the meat to nearly freeze mold would grow if it was not consumed rapidly enough. It was found that the liquids (enzymes) that were secreted by the mold started to break down the muscle fiber; thus making the meat more tender. In Quality beef today; like certified angus, the animal is feed a diet that will make the meat more tender. This is also why bull calves are castrated...testosterone makes the meet more fibrous. The area that the mold is grown on must be removed or a person will get sick. Pathogens like ecoli, salmonella, and other gram negative bacteria also contaminate the meat with molds. Back in those days the diet of the animal was strictly grass, thus making the animal much less palatable due to the lack of flavoroids from the grains and grain by products that animals are feed now days. This is were the antaeg, You are what you eat, originates. In current times one takes a grass fed cut of meat and marinades it for a few hours to a week depending on the desired tenderness and flavoring. While a high end beef is grain feed and checked for marbling and finish; now days. So; please use the term aged beef and not high end. The high end term is really about the quality of the cut that is found on the high end of the hanging animal...thus, Living higher on the hog...refers to not eating the roast cuts, but bacon, ribs, and highest being the ham.

Oops sorry for the history lesson but as a beef producer there is a lot of misinformation or conception that hurts the industry...as does this subject for maple producers.

The end result of what ever product you use is the same...clean health pans. It is just a matter of how one gets to the end result. Both are acids, they do the same job but one is home made using all natural ingredients and the other is a purchased product. When use correctly the results are the same. I fear that I for one rushed to judgment; and did not consider all the facts. While it is not as pretty a site as a shiny pan with sap jumping and rolling. It is one way to get the pan shiny and bright. Not every part of any items production is going to appeal to all consumers but it is how the product is safely produced for consumption.

To be fair, and please correct me if Im wrong but what I learned this past weekend is the The marketing campaign "certified Angus" is alittle bit of a joke. My understanding is that any breed of cattle can be sold as Certified angus as long as 51% or more of its hairs are black, if that is true i would say certfied does not mean quality

[BreezyHill]

Kyle, sorry I didn't see this respose until searching for something else. Hair color is only a minor portion of the CA seal. To be a registered angus there is only minimal white allowed on the under belly area; unless it is result of an injury. Angus will have a black nose, and then you have to get into all the size of meat area, marbling etc. for the animal to be certified angus. Believe me there is a difference when you taste a well fed angus vs an angus that was grass fed or not finished properly. but that is true with most every animal I have consumed. Takes hogs...if they are feed a scrape diet or forage diet they taste very different than one that is corn feed with a balanced diet.
The old saying you are what you eat is very true. Personally I like to enjoy what I eat, steak, burger or even a pasta salad. It may not be the most healthy choice but I do enough work to stay within a few pounds of the weight I graduated at. BP is good and Cloes. was great. Moderation is the key for me. I cant eat all I did 30 years ago...trust me I wish I could. So I still enjoy alittle of what I want.