Sap Puller

[treehugger]

I am thinking of adding a sap puller to my sugar bush. I was thinking of a sap puller but in my opinion, pretty expensive, and used ones are hard to come by. Vaccum is out of my budget and don't have the electrical supply to support it (only 115v avail). I have 200-205 taps on gravity, mostly greater than a 15 degree pitch to the land. My mainline is 3/4" 400', then into two, 1/2" lines each about 900', then into lateral lines no more than 25 taps per line (but mostly 10-15 taps per line) and each lateral line as short and straight as possible. I would like to get more sap than gravity is giving me. Do you think a sap puller would be beneficial to my situation? Thanks

[western mainer]

If you go to E-bay you can find used vacuum pumps there and you can use a 115v motor.
Brian

[treehugger]

Brian, what should I search for? I see alot of small things up. Is there a key word to enter?

[western mainer]

A good pump search would be a Gast pump. I picked up a Gast 2565 on E-bat for $125.00
if you find a pump go to the Gast sight and check the specs.
Brian

[bowhunter]

It sounds like you have a lot of slope. If you have 20-30 feet of slope in your laterals you might be able to convert your laterals to 3/16 tubing. There has been some good research on creating natural vacuum (up to 26 inches of vacuum) with 3/16 tubing. For example 10 inches of vacuum at the tap will probably double your sap production and you only need about 15 feet of elevation change to generate this much vacuum. You can get the tubing at D&G in Vermont for $45 per 500 ft roll and the 3/16 fittings from McMaster-Carr. I haven't tried it myself but the results reported here on this forum are pretty amazing if you use the right tubing. I've posted a couple of links for more information.
http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/highvacuum.pdf
http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?17418-High-vacuum-in-gravity-tubing-research/page2&highlight=timothy+wilmot

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

If you go with Vac instead of a puller, a releaser of some kind enters into the equation

[treehugger]

I was wondering about that. I guess i'll keep my eyes open for both. Does anyone have anything bad to say about those old glass milkhouse releasers? I could probably find one pretty easy in my neck of the woods.

[BreezyHill]

On ebay right now...surge releaser with a pump on a metal panel $150. I just got one in and they are great. My dad was a surge dealer...we used a ss releaser since the late '70s. Currently I am installing a Delaval releaser and glass tubing off the pump to the Ro's storage tank and then to the evaporator storage tank. We are changing our operation to a teaching facility for 4-H and school tours.

The glass releasers will only have a rubber flapper valve after the pump. They don't lose vacuum as some releasers due since the pump pulls the sap from the bottom of the jar. There is a way to do it with out the pump but most places need to pump it to storage any way. If you can find a releaser locally then get the vacuum pump off the dairy also. I have a Delaval 73 that pulls 26-27" all day long. It also runs three ladders that work lick a charm. The Delaval 75 is much bigger and will easily handle 1600 taps. I was told by a Delaval tech the 73 was good for 16 cfms at 15". I have used a surge bb2 but don't get the vacuum and it is noise...chugs like a hit miss engine. The 73 you can stand next to and talk to people. If you get a dairy unit take the vacuum control device and put it on ebay. It is meant to limit the vacuum to 12-15". Several have kept this in the system and don't get high vac due to the limiter. Goat guys need them and they are pricey new. Let me know how you make out.

Ben

2nd generation tapper
on 4th gen farm
5th generation loving it all
one going to Morrisville for ag business & engineering in fall
all sap vacuumed to the sugar house...no more sap hauling

[steve J]

I am also thinking about a sap puller or maybe a vaccum but I am not sure if I understand how they function well enough to know if it would work for me. I am not up were my sugar bush is all the time. When things are running I may be there for two days but than gone for a day. If one is not there is it possible for it to work on gravity during that time? I have about 150 on line. I do have a steep grade so maybe the smaller line make more sense but I thought I had read were leaks could be an issue from freeze up?

[500592]

Steve I would go with the small tubing really high vacuum can be achieved and way less work.

[BreezyHill]

I have a "Sap Sucker" that my dad had as a pump to move sap from the collection tank to one of the storage tanks. I would take a vacuum pump over it any day of the week. With a bit of work you can set up a few sensors on a vacuum pump with a relay and have a system that will shut down in the event of a system failure. A temp sensor can be set up to turn the pump on/off for freezing, vacuum sensor can be installed if a line rupture occurs and vacuum is lost, a temp sensor can be strapped to the pump in the event the pump gets to hot for several reasons.

Remember: with vac you are looking for a pump that can supply 1 cubic foot per minute of evacuation at the vacuum level you are looking to maintain. If you are looking to maintain high vac 24-28" of mercury a gast pump will only be good for a low number of taps. I too was under the impression it was at free air vac, not the high vac level.
A Gast 2565 at 25" is about 2.5 cfm. The standard of 1 cfm/ 100 taps for a tight system gives 250 taps max...1/50 rate that many tappers are using is 125 taps; but remember you can connect more than one pump to the system to get your needed cfms.

I put together a vac cfm tester and found my delaval 73 was about 10 cfm at 25" and 3.69 at 28". The unit consisted of a stainless steel milk pail and lid, section of vac tube, valve, timer.

The difference of high vac and gravity is night and day. Last season I changed a bb1 pump to the 73 pump and nearly doubled production by tripling the cfms and increased the vacuum 3". I changed about half way thru season and averaged for the season was .47g / tap of syrup.

I suggest a dairy pump due to their cost, effectiveness, and availability in many areas. Gast makes a good pump fairly inexpensive on ebay, but you find a dairy pump and usually you have found a releaser and all you need to get setup.

I will get a pic of the surge releaser setup I got of ebay. Releaser, pump, water separator; all set up and ready to attach vac and tubing to storage tank and you are good to go($150).

If you want the skinney on the vac tester let me know.

Ben

[GeneralStark]

I have to agree that it seems that switching to 3/16" tubing would be cheaper and probably more effective than using a vacuum pump or sap sucker with your present tubing system. Even with a 2 CFM @25" pump, your 400' 3/4" and 2-900' 1/2" mainlines are not going to transfer vacuum well in to the woods. And with 25 taps per lateral, you really will not get effective vac. transfer.

Sure people will tell you that you can hook up a vac. pump to your existing tubing system and get better production, and that may be correct to some degree, but there is more to it than just hooking up a pump. Especially if you want to do it right and maximize your production.

Unless you want to design and install a new tubing system correctly for vacuum, there probably isn't much point of going through the expense of the pump, releaser and other items you will need. That said, if this is just a hobby and you like messing around and don't really care much about your cost to production ratio and you like the idea of having a vac. pump for fun, go for it.

[BreezyHill]

The trick is to use a few inexpensive toys to get transfer of vacuum. I have successfully used leakers to get 21" to the end of 150+' of 5/16 lateral with 50 taps. leakers are inexpensive. Go to the depot and get a needle valve, two 5/16 y connectors, 2 4" lengths of tubing, and two caps. Total $6.14. The leaker will clear the line of sap rapidly and transfer vacuum.
What will it cost to put in the new tubing with all the connectors and adapters?
Now calculate out the cost of lost production that could be gained by changing your system to a more perfect high vacuum design over a few years while reaping the benefits of higher vacuum.
Don't get fooled into think that there is just one way of doing things. For every different bush there is at least three ways of getting the sap to the pan. The fun is in learning along the way and making it work for you.

Why settle for the easy way out? If that was the case, wouldn't you go to the local sugar shack and grab a gallon and enjoy the maple flavor...no you would not...it is in your blood...you enjoy make a hole in a tree and making a wonderful product from that clear drop.

Take General stark...he gets a great feeling when he helps his fellow tappers...and has corrected me on a point too...for that I thank him!

The small tubing will get you vacuum with enough drop; but it needs to be full to achieve vac this way and over a good drop. The math is the reverse of a ladder. 1" of mercury for 1' of elevation; but then you need to calculate the friction factor for the tubing, number of taps can be added to achieve vac but not over whelm the line and cause a reduction of vacuum...then what about leaks. They will affect this system exponentially due to the fact you have no cfms in reserve. So you need 24' of drop to get 24", then you need more drop to make up for the friction loss of the sap flow within the tube.

There is a load of factors that a vacuum system factors in as reserve cfm for, that a natural vacuum system has to be managed for. Tight taps, tight tubing connections, taught tubing, etc.

I look at everyone looking to better their production. Since high vacuum can take a day that a run is pitiful for gravity and make it a good run day, I would say to go with high vacuum. To achieve high vac on 3/16 you need sap to run. I can achieve 1 gallon/ tap sap on a 36 degree cloudy day, while another guy with low vac had to little to bother hauling.
Vacuum will also aid in thawing frozen lines and more produce sap.

Just set reach able, affordable goals and enjoy the results.

Ben

[steve J]

Breezy I am trying to understand this leaker idea. Are you putting this valve at the end of the line and opening it long enough to partially flush the line that closing it thus creating a high vaccum? And is this something you have to do daily?

[GeneralStark]

I would personally encourage people to steer clear of these "band aid" style remedies for poorly designed tubing systems. Intentionally introducing leaks into your system is not going to increase vacuum transfer to the taphole and will instead reduce the overall vacuum level your system will be able to operate at. We are talking about physical laws here.

Investing in a properly designed system for vacuum will yield higher production and will pay itself off quickly. There is no question about this. All one needs to do is read the studies and talk to sugarmakers that are consistently making .5/tap. Producers that are making .5/tap+ are not using poorly designed systems and patching them together with band aid fixes.

3/16" tubing is certainly still experimental but in the original poster's case, this may be the most economical option for increasing production as using a tubing system designed for gravity with a vacuum pump is not going to yield much higher production.

[BreezyHill]

Great question Steve! I adjust them at a time of high flow and leave them. 7896
I made these to add micro bubbles of air to my ladders. The check valve spout was added to stop any sap from leaking out of the ladder when the lines froze, unfortunately they didn't stop the dripping; but will keep mud wasps from the valves. Since the valve is only open a tiny amount the air is less than a typical tubing leak. I first tried a 22 ga needle, but it was to large, as was a prick in the tubing at the end line hook behind the first barb. So the amount of air is very minimal. A vacuum gauge on a 4 inch piece of tubing will help you to adjust the valve to achieve the highest vacuum possible. It took me checking them several times to find less than a quarter turn open was the best setting for my system. Yours may need more or less micro bubbles to achieve the highest vacuum possible.
The physics is simple... a vacuum pump is less able to move liquid than air. For every inch of vacuum, sap can be lifted about 12"; while air can be lifted infinitely. By introducing these micro bubbles you are accelerating the sap flow, thus allowing for vacuum to be transferred to the tap hole. Before I added the leaker I had 12" and after I had 21" at the end of this lateral. This increase of vacuum would supply an increase production of 45% to 63%...not bad for a band aid.

All joking aside. There is no substitute for a well designed tubing system; but not all have the need, desire, or funds for the state of the art system; but would like to get more from what they already have in place. If this is the case; be proud of what you have and use what tools you have at your disposal to make the most from your trees.

Always remember, in every First Aid Kit there are band aids. These are useful to correct a problem until a better cure is available.

I do like to check the leakers every couple of days, just to see how the vacuum level is at different times of the day. Some guys like to adjust them in the am for low flow and a again for high flow. I don't have that kind of time, so I use one setting and like to keep 27" on the mains with the D 73.

Hope I fully answered your question Steve.

[500592]

I know someone who got close to.6 gal per tap with the 3/16 and had a few days were the tank ran over and he said that he has only checked it a couple of times and had 27-28 in of vacuum at the tap holes.

[BreezyHill]

To answer an email I got...the reason a leaker will increase the vacuum is physics...great point, thanks. By allowing there to be more air space in the tubing, above the flow of sap, the transfer of vacuum to the tap hole is dramatically increased. Yes, the addition of air in the system can reduce vacuum in the system but the full tubing will decrease the transfer more. Since my pump is a dairy pump that is over sized for the 500' of mains that has three ladders, and the other main is 1000'. Total taps on line for last season was 240. This season we should have around 400 back on line, with the mains that are in place. Another 300 will require another 2000' of mains to bring that bush to the sugar house.
We did have as many as 2100 at the high point of the operation. Currently we don't have the man power available to maintain that much as I run our feed mill and the oldest son is going to Morrisville and the younger two are in high school.
Yes, I have been doing this along time...since I was 6. It is a way of life.
No, Our area is not seeing a lot of new tappers...actually I think it is less, the last ten years. The increase in tech is great but it is pushing some tappers to retire because they don't want to look like they are small time. Personally, small time is the best time. You have more time to spend with visitors, friends, family that want to see the entire operation at work.
No, I don't get in to the my pumps bigger thing. If that was the case I would take the blower out of our old tractor trailer and use it in the sap house. These units would be the greatest for a vacuum pump. They are a rotary claw type of pump that produce huge amounts of air. The TT is a 610, that is 610 cfm. This will unload 24 tons of feed in 20 minutes thru a 30' long stinger. That is just way to big for what I have.
Its not the size of your pump, its the magic you do with it that matters.

Yes...leakers at the end of the lateral that has to many taps will produce the best results...if it only has 5 then the tubing will not be over whelmed and can still transfer vac fairly well. Besides the cost of adding a leaker to every lateral would be to much in my mind. I am a watch the pennies type. Dollars take care of themselves.

Thanks for the email.

Ben

[steve J]

I tried to open the attachment but could not do it on this site could you send me that via email to sjuiffre@chappellsflorist.com this sounds like a good route for me to go.

[500592]

It would be much cheaper for 3/16 if you have the slope and you would get really high vacuum with a lot less maintenance.