The Whip

[Moser's Maple]

in the Lapierre approved whip wet/dry tubing system is there an advantage of y's in the connections in both wet line and dry line, or could a person use T's instead because of the of ease of installation? just wondering

[GeneralStark]

I use stainless Y's at the wet line connection to reduce turbulence in the wet line and then use a stainless T where the whip connects to the lateral main. I have used both plastic T's and Y's for the dry line connection, but this has mainly been due to what I have had available. Eventually I will switch those to stainless as well.

Here is a photo of a recent one I set up and in this case I used a Y at both main conductor connection:

7879

[Moser's Maple]

general

great pic!!!!
that just answered a lot of questions
I was wondering if you ran the larger dry line in the lateral main, or if was the same size as the lateral main. your picture explains it all
Thank You!!!

[heus]

Does this setup work as good as a normal manifold?

[Moser's Maple]

from what I've been told yes. Conversation with Tom Zaffis and Donald Lapierre at their open house they were explaining that they have switched to this wet/dry connection. I would debate with them, but I tap 2500 and they tap 147,000, so it must work.

[maple flats]

I also have switched to this method and like it, however I find it difficult to connect a Y. No matter how I try the mainline tool won't pull the incoming Y side to the other. I use Lapierre SS fittings and they are real tight. For that reason I now use a T. My mains are all 1", my wet line is 1.25" and my dry line is 1.5" on what will eventually be upwards of 2000 taps. If I found an easier way to tie the Y in I would use it. I do not want to go to plastic, they are slightly smaller O.D. but then the I.D. is a lot smaller. Does anyone have an easy way to connect a SS Lapierre Y into the main line? I even carry a propane torch to slightly warm it if working in cold weather. The 45 degree pull just doesn't work for me.

[JoeJ]

SS Y's are a real pain, but I found the best way for me to install them is to put the 1" pipe on the Y branch before installing the Y in the mainline.

[TheMapleMoose]

How does Lapierre reccomend installing them? Is it like the tiger flex, just jam 'er on? Sounds like its time to head over to the home made forum and built a mainline tool adapter to install ys

[maple flats]

connecting the Y on the Y side first, I wonder if something could be slid over the down stream side of the fitting to give a flat push surface for the mainline tool to give a straight push. I may need to get my machinist going on that. He likes doing a lot in nylon. In fact, my brother just picked up a 54" lathe that he might like to get some practice. My machinist charges, my brother gets free syrup.

[GeneralStark]

I find that by using channel locks to grasp the Y fitting, and slightly heating the pipe with a torch, I can relatively easily insert the fitting. Once one side is inserted, the other is much easier. It does take some care to be sure the pipe is straight and true once the fitting is installed. I generally install the fittings before stretching the pipe and wire tying it.

[Moser's Maple]

I can't help myself, but I've touched on what I'm about to say on the other site but would love to hear some feedback on this site also. So been debating on for a few years now instead of "manifolding" or "whipping" into my main laterals, I've been debating on putting a booster (stabilizer) at every intersection of where a main hits my wet/dry system. I have 6in and 8in pvc pieces left over from a city water line job, so I was thinking of making my own booster and using those instead of whipping in. My biggest hang up is.... would I yield more sap that could justify the extra work and time it would take to booster into every section, or am I just wasting my time???

[maple flats]

I only issue as I see it (in essence making a 6 or 8" manifold) would be if a large limb fell on the line, would it survive or would you need a spare just to be ready?
In my set up I see no sap going into the dry line when the wet line isn't frozen. In my bigger bush, mine are all 1" mains into a 1.25 wet and the whip of 1" into the 1.5" dry line.

[wiam]

I can't help myself, but I've touch on what I'm about to say on the other site but would love to hear some feedback on this site also. So been debating on for a few years now instead of "manifolding" or "whipping" into my main laterals, I've been debating on putting a booster (stabilizer) at every intersection of where a main hits my wet/dry system. I have 6in and 8in pvc pieces left over from a city water line job, so I was thinking of making my own booster and using those instead of whipping in. My biggest hang up is.... would I yield more sap that could justify the extra work and time it would take to booster into every section, or am I just wasting my time???

I know quite a few that are getting close to .5 gallon/tap that are not doing this. I try to copy what I see in woods that get high yield and good years I get over .45 gallons/ tap.

[nymapleguy607]

If your dry lines are sized right for the distance they travel and the number of taps I don't think a booster would be any benefit. I would think they would thaw slower than a whip would.

[GeneralStark]

I think boosters are appropriate when you have many lateral mainlines joining your wet/dry conductors in one location. Whips seem appropriate when you have one lateral mainline joining your wet/dry conductors. All this will depend greatly upon your topography and setup. In terms of vacuum transfer, I don't see how one would have any advantage over the other assuming you are using correctly sized pipe for your situation.

I too look at what other producers with high yields are doing in their woods. The following photos are from a state of the art setup in my area of VT. They are using both systems depending upon the situation.

78867887

[spud]

If your dry lines are sized right for the distance they travel and the number of taps I don't think a booster would be any benefit. I would think they would thaw slower than a whip would.

Your right in saying the whip would thaw much faster then a frozen booster. I would agree a booster would not always be needed if your lines are sized right. I put in back-up wet lines to my boosters and it helped when the main wet line froze up. I did this in hopes the dry line would never have to have sap in it. This is because it would then restrict vacuum. It worked very well for me this season. I also noticed that my vacuum to these boosters went up one inch and were near the same as my vacuum at the releaser 2500 feet away. Before installing the back up wet lines there was a 1 1/2 inch vacuum difference from releaser to far ends of the woods. My extra wet line also brought up my CFMs to the far ends of the woods. The thing that killed me this season was low sugar content of just 1.5% average for the season. Had I gotten a 2% average for the season my system would have giving me .6 GPT

Spud

[western mainer]

Just tiring to learn here! When running your wet and dry side by side with the whips, and you have 5/16 line coming in do you put your saddles on the wet lines?
Thanks Brian

[wiam]

Just tiring to learn here! When running your wet and dry side by side with the whips, and you have 5/16 line coming in do you put your saddles on the wet lines?
Thanks Brian

I and quite a few others will not run 5/16 lines into the wet/dry lines. There needs to be a mainline coming off the wet/dry for them to come into

[DrTimPerkins]

I and quite a few others will not run 5/16 lines into the wet/dry lines. There needs to be a mainline coming off the wet/dry for them to come into

Yes, that is the correct procedure.

We've not done a lot of research on manifolds versus the whip, but anecdotally, most of our systems were installed with PVC manifolds. With about 1,500 taps in that section, we replaced about 2 manifolds each year due to breakage (ice, tree falling, etc.). Most of these have been changed over to a whip, or modified manifold system. Haven't had any breakage of these in the past 2 yrs. We did do some work looking at sap flow through junctions (PVC and stainless tee fittings and PVC manifolds). The flow is much smoother with stainless fittings.

[maple flats]

The 5/16 laterals should only enter the mainlines and then the mains tie to the wet/dry either thru a manifold or the whip method. I have both methods, my first 2 seasons with wet/dry I used manifolds and last year was my first to start using the whip method. After just 1 season I will not use any more manifolds. However, I never had to replace a manifold because of breakage, I made mine off to the side. My manifolds were off about 18-24" to the side of the wet/dry (wet about 12" under the dry) I made the manifold with the main entering at a tee about 4" up from an elbow at the bottom that is tied into the wet line. The top 8" or so rises to an elbow that then ties into the dry line. On these the main body is 1 1/2" pvc, I used the expensive Leader SS reinforced Tees and then reduced at the elbows going to the wet/dry. My mains also were mostly 1" when I was using those tees. Before that my manifolds were only 1" 30P tubing and the mains were mostly 3/4". I did have some large limbs fall but having the manifolds offset like I did, there was enough give so nothing got broken.
I still like the whip method far better, easier to do, even more forgiving, faster to build and cheaper to make, all big pluses.

[Amber Gold]

When I set my woods up, I used whips everywhere, but I found during heavy flows the wet line would get overwhelmed and sap would flow down the dry line. IMO on branch mainlines w/ a lot of taps, whips don't allow a smooth entry of sap into the wet line, so I would get a lot of surging. So now I use a combination of both like GeneralStark shows. I have one spot where three mainlines come in w/in 20' of each other, I replaced those three whips with a single booster..the other two branch mainlines use whips. This allows the sap to dump into the booster and the flow out gets smoothed so when it hits the first whip downstream, it can handle it. I added >200 taps to this woods this year and got no flow in the dry line. The other bonus is the booster was cheaper than all the stainless fittings/valves gauges I would've needed otherwise...and far fewer potential vacuum leaks :)

On whips, use y's not tees, and use stainless fittings. They have a larger ID so ice chunks don't block them as easily (plastic fittings only have a 1/2" ID), they hold better, and they won't break...downside is you can't get them apart for anything once together. I swapped my entire woods out from plastic to stainless fittings. I also had a hard time getting them on at first. I had a homemade mainline tool using a wire tensions, but it didn't work as well. This year, I bought a mainline tool (it's' worth the money) and I had a friend of mine w/ a wood lathe make a tapered block of wood for me...looks like a cone w/ a block at the end. To get the fittings started, I take the cone and give it a few taps into the end of the pipe so the pipe expands and fittings can get started. Hook the mainline tool up and put the fitting together...goes on easily and in a few minutes. Y's are trickier. I put the two mainline fittings together and clamp them up. I then work on the branch of the Y. Expand the pipe, clamp it to the tool, brace the other side of the tool against the clamp you tightened up so the tool doesn't slide (you are coming at it at an angle) and bring the tool together. Does this make sense??

[maple flats]

What size were you using that you found sap going to the dry line? How many taps on it? This sounds to me like something was under sized, I had no such issues. I do use all Lapierre SS barbed fittings and they flow well.

[Moser's Maple]

so the boosters are out and I'll continue with whips. now I understand why y's are recommended for the sap entering the wet line, but for the dry line do you really need a y, or can you get away with t's instead since there is no liquid flow???? for my system I know I'm over sized. I have 2 wet/dry systems coming to my releaser, both wet/dry less than 1000 feet away. I'm using 1in wet, 1 1/4 dry and a 25 cm Indiana vacuum pump on a total for both lines of 700ish taps. my main branches that enter the wet dry system are also 1in lines. so I think my sizing is correct, and I should have room to grow on this system. I have 3 other systems similar to this one with a few more taps, but the booster idea came from just seeing if could come up with a even more efficient set up. but thanks for all the great ideas and suggestions

[spud]

I just don't see the benefits of having these whips. I am looking at General Starks photos and not seeing the need for any of this. What am I missing here? I am not saying they don't work. What I am saying is I don't understand how they benefit. All the fittings involved to install these whips means more leaks in the future. If your wet/dry is sized right and your mainline is sized right then everything should flow smooth. I have six boosters in my woods with a total of 36 mainlines in my woods. I can drive to these six boosters and check vacuum and flow from each line coming in. If I see a line surging then I know I have a leak on that main line. I don't have to shut a valve off to check a leak and cause (backflow) to my system. If I had a whip set-up then I would use Y's on my dry line also. The dry line serves as a wet line if the wet line freezes up for some reason.

Spud

[heus]

With all of the talk about the difficulty of pushing the y fittings on, why can't you just heat up the mainline a little with a torch and push it onto the fitting by hand?

[maple flats]

I've done that, but I don't like heating the tubing. Spud, If you don't want whips, don't. My mains and wet/dry ARE sized correct and I need no boosters. I like the whips far more that manifolds for tying mains into the wet/dry, and I don't want to need a booster and need to run the mains from one section all to that common point. I don't think I've ever had a leak at a whip (nor a manifold. Any leaks have always been at the tap hole or an animal chew.

[sapman]

The problem I've had with whips is sap getting into the dry line, but I know why. I used them in a flat section of bush with minimal slope (if any, sometimes). So my dry line would fill up, rendering it counter-productive, I think. I just wonder if the manifold style would have separated the liquid and gas better enough to keep the dry line "dryer". But probably not. Manifold would probably back up, too, I don't know.

[maple flats]

I'm not sure on that. I have no issue and some of mine are on about 2% slope at the flattest. If flatter the bigger separation chamber in a properly designed manifold might be better.

[spud]

I still don't fully understand how the whips work. I do understand how the manifold works and I know it works well. When I talk about my booster set-up I talk about the benefits of having this type of set-up. I know tons of people with manifold set-ups and they love them. What makes the whip better then the manifold? Why would someone make the switch? I have seen Dr. Tims You-Tube video on Manifolds and how the sap flows down the main and into the manifold and then drops into the wet line. The sap never went up to the dry line. I assume the whip is allowing the gas to flow into the dry line so the sap can flow steady into the wet line. Am I right on this assumption? In the photos General Stark shows, there does not seem to be any valves with the whip system. If this is the case then how do you check for leaks other then walking every mainline? There has to be benefits to the whips because PMRC uses them. What are the benefits?

Spud

[maple flats]

I have a valve on each main just out past where the whip comes off. I have both whips and manifolds in my bushes, but I see no reason where one would remove one to install the other, unless the manifold broke because of a tree falling or it just failed from age or such.
The main advantages of the whip as I see it are simplicity of design, it can survive a tree falling on the main or the wet/dry, it works, and it is cheaper to build, both parts and labor.

[western mainer]

Hey Flats can you post some more photos of your whips and valves to give us new to the game a better insight.
Thanks Brian

[heus]

Yes I would like to see some more pictures of them, as well.

[maplecrest]

Tim on you flat sections the sap fills the wet line. No matter what size. I bet you have alot of saddles that are leakers also from freezing when pipe is full. With out the dry line you would only get a small % of the sap from that flat woods. I am dealing with same issue. Sun gets up on that area and line is full before the wet dry to sugar house is thawed out.was having major saddle issues. Added dry line that carries a good portion of that sap early in the morning . I switched from manifolds to what you call whips in 2007( the wind storm called the nori cane of 07 ) every manifold was broken by fallen trees.they are fixed and do not give. The whips move freely in each direction. Might kink if made to tight but give with the lines if a tree falls. This last spring last weekend of season had a wind storm and a large amount of trees down. Everything held togather. I pulled the taps out of the fallen trees at the end. If you are in a high wind prone area like me. This is the only way to go.

[maple flats]

Hey Flats can you post some more photos of your whips and valves to give us new to the game a better insight.
Thanks Brian
I won't be getting up to my bush until August now. I'm far too busy at the blueberries/raspberries and the sugarhouse. I'll get some pictures when I get up there.

[sapman]

Tim on you flat sections the sap fills the wet line. No matter what size. I bet you have alot of saddles that are leakers also from freezing when pipe is full. With out the dry line you would only get a small % of the sap from that flat woods. I am dealing with same issue. Sun gets up on that area and line is full before the wet dry to sugar house is thawed out.was having major saddle issues. Added dry line that carries a good portion of that sap early in the morning . I switched from manifolds to what you call whips in 2007( the wind storm called the nori cane of 07 ) every manifold was broken by fallen trees.they are fixed and do not give. The whips move freely in each direction. Might kink if made to tight but give with the lines if a tree falls. This last spring last weekend of season had a wind storm and a large amount of trees down. Everything held togather. I pulled the taps out of the fallen trees at the end. If you are in a high wind prone area like me. This is the only way to go.

My problems are similar to yours. But it seemed like with wet/dry lines, the two were sort of competing with each other, and I wouldn't get a decent flow from either. So until I can get the dry lines raised up on the far end, and maintain slope, I've shut them off, which did seem to work better this year.

[Moser's Maple]

if you go to page 17 on cdl website you'll see another example of the whip method. all you have to do is add a valve infront of the connection on the main running into the wet/dry and add a vacuum gauge there and you'll have an easy way for narrowing down leaks

http://en.cdlinc.ca/

[maple flats]

That picture is what my whips look like, with a valve ahead of the 1st Y, in the main. I do not yet have a vacuum test port, but will be adding them.

[spud]

I have a valve on each main just out past where the whip comes off. I have both whips and manifolds in my bushes, but I see no reason where one would remove one to install the other, unless the manifold broke because of a tree falling or it just failed from age or such.
The main advantages of the whip as I see it are simplicity of design, it can survive a tree falling on the main or the wet/dry, it works, and it is cheaper to build, both parts and labor.

I understand the whip is cheaper to build and the design is simple compared to a manifold. What I don't understand is why is any of this needed in the first place? Why can't you just run your mainline right into your wet line? The whip itself is only 2-3 feet long so if your mainline should ever freeze up the whip will do nothing for you (unless you froze in the 2-3 foot section). To eliminate all the freeze up in this 2-3 foot section then just eliminate the whip itself. If a person has proper slope and proper mainline size for the amount of taps he has then you should never have a freeze up in your mainline. As Amber Gold said the whip did not cause his sap to flow any smoother. I do understand that the wet and dry lines need to be connected in order to transfer vacuum. That type of connection could be done in various points along the wet/dry lines and not just where the main lines come into a wet line. The only time I have ever seen my sap surge is when I had a leak. I look into my booster and if I see a surging line then I know I have a leak in that line. I never had to turn a valve off while fixing a leak. To shut a valve off means back flow for sure. This is why the CV spouts are used. Just a freeze up in a mainline will cause back flow. I do have valves so I can turn a line off if a tree takes out a mainline and is causing a major leak. The only other time I use my valves is when I am tapping or pulling spouts. As I said in past post I am not saying the whip does not work. What I am asking is why are they needed and what is their function? I did look in the CDL book and saw a photo of their whip set-up. It looked nice and clean just like the Generals did.

Spud

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

For many of us "proper" slope is the problem. My main and trunk lines seldom have a 4% slope and often it is less than 2%. My mains do Y directly into the trunk line. If they had to go into a manifold that allowed a drop into the trunk line, I would be losing several inches of drop that I don't have. By whipping into each lateral main line, I insure adequate vacuum to that lateral main. I seldom have sap in my dry line.

[maple flats]

Spud, If you are just running your mains into the wet line, where are you getting the gases/air to go into the dry line? The whip is just a real good way to separate the sap and the gases, nothing more. The sap goes to the wet line and the gases go to the dry line.
Then to find a leak, just connect a gauge to the main out past the valve. Close the valve while watching the gauge. If the vac drops instantly you have a leak, if it falls quite slowly, you only have sap flowing. In practice this valve will only be closed for several seconds.

[Randy Brutkoski]

The way maple flats described it is exactly how I do it.

[spud]

Spud, If you are just running your mains into the wet line, where are you getting the gases/air to go into the dry line? The whip is just a real good way to separate the sap and the gases, nothing more. The sap goes to the wet line and the gases go to the dry line.
Then to find a leak, just connect a gauge to the main out past the valve. Close the valve while watching the gauge. If the vac drops instantly you have a leak, if it falls quite slowly, you only have sap flowing. In practice this valve will only be closed for several seconds.

Maple Flats,

I do understand the release of gas issue we all face in our set-ups. I also thank you for yours and others comments in helping to explain the whip system to me. I guess here's my thought on all of this (and it's just a thought). If a person ran 2000 feet of wet/dry lines with 20 mainlines entering along the way would that person need 20 whips? In a properly sized system the sap should never take up more then a third to maybe half the pipe. This would allow the other half to 2/3 of the pipe for Vacuum/gases. If you have 2000 feet of wet/dry line why not just T them together every 3-500 feet for vacuum and tree gas purposes? Now you would only have 4-7 cut in's instead of 20 cut in's. Would this be enough and has anyone like PMRC or Cornell ever studied this? I think they have. I know I read research saying that a( properly sized) single mainline set-up works as well as a wet/dry system. As far as closing valves (even for just seconds) will create some back flow. If your releaser gauge say's your running 27 inches would you still close valves on each mainline just to check for small leaks? I also understand many people have slope issues. I have one area in my woods where the wet/dry lines have very little slope for 400 feet or so. What I did here was add a 1 1/4 inch back-up wet line from the sugarhouse to the booster and this helped me out a bunch this season. Thanks again everyone for all the info. It's great to read about other people's set-ups because it gives me all sorts of ideas for my own woods. Maple Trader and it's members has been a big help to me.

Spud

[thirsty07]

The price difference of Stainless vs plastic is tremendous! Do you think there would be a production difference that would justify paying $23 for a stainless Y (1x1x3/4) vs. $3.50 for a plastic Y (or $1.68 for a T if you REALLY want cut your costs)? Would the turbulence where the whip meets the mainline be the major concern (since that is where gas and liquid are mixing/parting)? Wouldn't turbulence at the main/wetline junction only cause flow or vacuum issues if it backed all the way up to the whip/main junction? If that is the case, could you just use a stainless fitting at the whip/main instead of all 3?

I would think that the "give" or movement allowed by the whip system would help prevent breakage in the junction, so that even plastic fittings would be sturdy enough to not break. Would you need stainless still to prevent breaking? Anyone have any experience with this?

First of all, I want to set up my system right (even if that means all stainless)...I just don't want to spend up to $70+ in stainless fittings each mainline if I don't have to.

Thoughts?

Matt

[wiam]

The price difference of Stainless vs plastic is tremendous! Do you think there would be a production difference that would justify paying $23 for a stainless Y (1x1x3/4) vs. $3.50 for a plastic Y (or $1.68 for a T if you REALLY want cut your costs)? Would the turbulence where the whip meets the mainline be the major concern (since that is where gas and liquid are mixing/parting)? Wouldn't turbulence at the main/wetline junction only cause flow or vacuum issues if it backed all the way up to the whip/main junction? If that is the case, could you just use a stainless fitting at the whip/main instead of all 3?


I would think that the "give" or movement allowed by the whip system would help prevent breakage in the junction, so that even plastic fittings would be sturdy enough to not break. Would you need stainless still to prevent breaking? Anyone have any experience with this?

First of all, I want to set up my system right (even if that means all stainless)...I just don't want to spend up to $70+ in stainless fittings each mainline if I don't have to.

Thoughts?

Matt

I used the cheapest pvc I could find to build manifolds and no stainless. My system generally runs 22-25" On good years I get .45 gallons per tap. I do not believe stainless fittings are going to make me money

[GeneralStark]

I understand the whip is cheaper to build and the design is simple compared to a manifold. What I don't understand is why is any of this needed in the first place? Why can't you just run your mainline right into your wet line? The whip itself is only 2-3 feet long so if your mainline should ever freeze up the whip will do nothing for you (unless you froze in the 2-3 foot section). To eliminate all the freeze up in this 2-3 foot section then just eliminate the whip itself. If a person has proper slope and proper mainline size for the amount of taps he has then you should never have a freeze up in your mainline. As Amber Gold said the whip did not cause his sap to flow any smoother. I do understand that the wet and dry lines need to be connected in order to transfer vacuum. That type of connection could be done in various points along the wet/dry lines and not just where the main lines come into a wet line. The only time I have ever seen my sap surge is when I had a leak. I look into my booster and if I see a surging line then I know I have a leak in that line. I never had to turn a valve off while fixing a leak. To shut a valve off means back flow for sure. This is why the CV spouts are used. Just a freeze up in a mainline will cause back flow. I do have valves so I can turn a line off if a tree takes out a mainline and is causing a major leak. The only other time I use my valves is when I am tapping or pulling spouts. As I said in past post I am not saying the whip does not work. What I am asking is why are they needed and what is their function? I did look in the CDL book and saw a photo of their whip set-up. It looked nice and clean just like the Generals did.

Spud

The whip functions just as a manifold or booster does, to transfer vacuum from the dry line to the lateral mainline. As I have stated earlier, they are generally used when you only have one connection to make to your wet/dry conductors. In the situation you are describing above, ie not using a whip to connect the dry line to the lateral main, you are describing a setup with out a dry line conductor, or a single mainline system. Sure, in a wet/dry system you could just T your wet to your dry line every couple hundred feet or so and then just tie the lateral main to the wet line, but with the whip you are transferring vac. directly to the lateral main and connecting the wet to the dry line. Also, the whip allows sap to jump up to the dry line if there is a freeze up in the wet line as a manifold or booster would. This happens frequently in my woods and it allows sap to keep flowing down to the releaser and vacuum to continue to be transferred. On one occasion this last season, I did have both the wet and dry lines freeze while sap was flowing, but vac was still on the system and the incoming sap eventually thawed the dry line and then the wet line.

[GeneralStark]

I used the cheapest pvc I could find to build manifolds and no stainless. My system generally runs 22-25" On good years I get .45 gallons per tap. I do not believe stainless fittings are going to make me money

It seems to me that the plastic vs. stainless debate is kind of like the ford vs. chevy vs. dodge debate and is mostly just opinion. There are some clear factual advantages to stainless fittings however that suggest that that they will indeed make you more money in the long term. Consider the following factors:

- Larger internal diameter of the fitting. This improves vac. and sap flow and therefore increases the productivity of your system. It also reduces the build up of slime in a tubing system, reduces bacterial contamination of the sap, and results in higher grade and quality syrup over a longer life time of the tubing system.

- Minimal leak potential. If you install the fittings carefully they will not leak over time. Plastic does not seal as well.

- Zero breakage. You will never have to replace a stainless fitting and they can be used for eternity. You only have to buy them once. Tear out all your pipe and tubing when it is done and use the same fittings again.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

Spud, do you ever have trouble with your boosters freezing up like sometimes happens at the releaser? Also, do they leak sap if for some reason the vacuum is off?

[OldManMaple]

Here's a link to an article from Northern Woodland's spring 2012 issue http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/tricks-of-the-trade15

[spud]

Spud, do you ever have trouble with your boosters freezing up like sometimes happens at the releaser? Also, do they leak sap if for some reason the vacuum is off?

Two years ago one of my boosters froze up because I had a freeze up in a wet line right behind the sugarhouse. What was happening was water was dripping off my roof and then freezing on one of my wet lines at night. I fixed that problem so no water drips on any incoming lines to the sugarhouse. I also installed back-up wet lines to all boosters and that helped out a lot this year. I never had any freeze ups in boosters this year and I was getting sap in January till mid April.

Spud

[spud]

Here's a link to an article from Northern Woodland's spring 2012 issue http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/tricks-of-the-trade15

That's a good read. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Spud

[Amber Gold]

Back from vacation and quickly scanned this thread.

My wet/dry line is running very flat and it had 650 taps on it before I ran the booster. It'd be full of sap with little additional capacity to handle surges...my thought.

I like whip's because they are flexible with break trees.

I agree with what General Stark said above and would also add because of the larger ID they don't plug with ice as easily first thing in the morning when things are breaking loose...more sap = more $$

One issue I have with boosters is if the wet line freezes coming out, but the woods is still running, it fills with sap and freezes. If the sap level's higher than the branch mainlines, I don't know if they're getting vac. first thing in the morning. If we get a hard freeze, I do dump the sap out of them.

Another issue I w/ boosters is it's hard to check for micro leaks. If my woods is pulling 26" I still walk it and check for leaks. With a whip, the vac. guage is upstream of the shutoff valve, so once the valve's closed, the vac. level drops more noticeably if there's a leak. If you're looking for microleaks w/ a booster, the vac. pump is already overcoming them, so if you shut a valve off to watch the vac. increase it takes longer, if it's noticeable at all.

[heus]

Here's a link to an article from Northern Woodland's spring 2012 issue http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/tricks-of-the-trade15
I see they used tees instead of y's.

[500592]

This thread is a great read I will have to use a wet dry at the bottom of my sugar bush the way our is laid out the 4? Maybe 5 mainlines run up the hill about 5-600 feet with no more 200 taps on each the laterals comes in kind of forming a v. Also I should mention the mainlines are 3/4 in and are set in these small drainage ditches because the sugarbush used to be a feild. At the bottom things kind of narrow up and is about 250 ft across that is where I plan to put a wet dry line 1 in ontop of 1 in. How close can they be 6inches? Any tips or suggestions woul be appreciated.

[maple flats]

With the whip method you might be able to go as close as 6". With the manifold method I found it tight to get much under a foot between them.

[maplwrks]

Dave is correct---It will be hard to get closer than a foot with the manifold method. I have used this "whip "method for about 10 yrs now.

[spud]

Dave is correct---It will be hard to get closer than a foot with the manifold method. I have used this "whip "method for about 10 yrs now.

Mike,

I was checking out your photo bucket and your operation looks real nice. The one thing I did notice was on a photo of your wet/dry lines you have lateral lines going into your wet line. Did you do this throughout your woods or just sections?

Spud

[sapman]

One thing I've heard about stainless fittings is that they freeze quicker. I haven't checked that closely in my bush, though.

[spud]

One thing I've heard about stainless fittings is that they freeze quicker. I haven't checked that closely in my bush, though.

Tim,

They do freeze quicker just like blue mainline thaws slower. When you put these two together it can cause problems for mainlines that have very little slope.

Spud

[maplwrks]

Spud--I had 8 lines that were running into my wet line---HAD. I learned the hard way, and since have cut all of them out, and installed a seperate line for them. I am now in the process of installing more mains, cutting the distance between them down to 50'. Shooting for no more than 3 taps per lateral.

[spud]

Spud--I had 8 lines that were running into my wet line---HAD. I learned the hard way, and since have cut all of them out, and installed a seperate line for them. I am now in the process of installing more mains, cutting the distance between them down to 50'. Shooting for no more than 3 taps per lateral.

Mike,

It sounds like you had some leak issues with those lines that brought down your vacuum to the rest of the woods. Was that the case? Were there any other problems you had? Thanks for the information.

Spud

[maplwrks]

Just leak issues---they would freeze up my wet line.

[Moser's Maple]

So I shared this on sugarbush and figured I should share it here for all to see considering I started this thread. In the pic you will also see I have a shut off valve and a coupler that will accept a vacuum gauge. Just trying to make leak finding more efficient.
By the way stainless goes in all tubing pretty good except for 30p leader. My goodness never again. 7937

[maple flats]

Exactly what they should look like. Nice job!

[Moser's Maple]

Wish the iPhone would upload pics the right way

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

That looks nice. I know this has been discussed before, but in your picture I could see about 60-70$ in SS "Y"s. Will they make you 1.5 to 2 gallons more syrup to justify the extra cost?

With a sloped wet line, I can't imagine that it would matter that much. What are the experiments that have been conducted? I suspect using my set up with no SS and your's with, that we would be talking a difference in seconds for sap transfer.

Does that really make it worth the extra cost? I can build a whip with two shut off valves and 3 fittings for $20. With the SS I would guess closer to 80-100 per whip depending on how many ball valves used. So again, are these "Y"s going to make 1-2 gallons more syrup per main line?

Ben

[BreezyHill]

Over the life expectance of the y the answer is yes.
The life of a good SS fitting is easily the life of the tapper plus.
The y has a much higher flow rate than a tee that is typically used in a pvc junction. There are two factors at play. Friction & Blockage. Tee connections do not allow fluid or vacuum transferal due to the immediate change in direction that severs the tunnel or column of un obstructed travel thru the center of the mass of air. Think of when a car slips in behind a tractor trailer...you can feel the reduction of air friction or drag on the car the closer you get. This happens in the mains also.
Now think of a tee intersection full of traffic. For a car to enter a lull or opening needs to be for the side to enter the main traffic line. The side line experiences a backup that reduces flow transfer due to additional speed reduction of the flow.

Now if you are comparing a plastic y and a SS Y. The answer is much more variable. The main factor is capacity of the line. If the line is at or very near capacity then SS is the choice, otherwise the slight increase in ID( inside diameter) of the plastic connector is much less of a factor. Both will cause a disruption of flow with the plastic being slightly more.
BUT at what point does one decide to increase the size of the mainline and use the plastic fitting. I will do the calculation and address this later in the week. But the hole thing hinges on an addition of how much more production will be realized by the higher vacuum rate at the tap hole from the added size of the main. This is why the use of 1/2" has all but died and 3/4" is dropping every season. Even 1" is being upgraded to 1.25" mains in many bushes. 2" is selling more and more every season. 10 years ago there was only a tiny number using 2" mains.

I realize this put a hole new twist on things but it is preseason and it is something to think about when you are walking the bush.

Ben

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I hear the logic and it makes sense. I just question how much of a difference it makes. I can buy 10-15 plastic fittings for the price of one SS. Yes the SS will last forever, but 10 plastic fittings will last more than my lifetime anyway. And from what I've read the SS fittings are nearly impossible to take apart, thus after life of tubing expires, it makes it hard to use again.

I think you may be onto something with the oversized pipe Vs. SS and smaller pipe. I bet it is cheaper to use plastic with a 1" main vs. 3/4 and SS. Wait I have a book.

500 feet of 3/4 and SS Whip connections
- - Leader 30P Main 500' 3/4" = $160
- 1 - SS 3/4, 3/4, 3/4 "Y" = 22.68
- 1 - SS 1", 1", 1" "Y" = 34.91
- 1 - SS 3/4, 1 1/4, 1 1/4 "Y" = 27.30

TOTAL for 3/4 w/ SS = $244.89

Ball valve being equal

500 ft 1" w/ Plastic fittings
- Lead 30p main 500' 1" = $240
- 1 3/4 plastic Y (Can't find a price so let's estimate high with $2.50 each.) = 2.50
- 1 - 1" Plastic Y = $2.50
- 1 - 3/4, 1 1/4, 1 1/4 Plastic Y = $2.50

TOTAL for 1" w/ Plastic fittings = $247.50

From this to me it appears those of you using 3/4 mains with SS might as well use 1" and plastic. I think I will stick with my 3/4 with plastic. We are trying to make money right?

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I just thought of another variable that is relevant to me and many others. Some bushes are only ever going to be that size, they are, let's say 1500 taps. They will always be 1500 taps and the sugarmaker isn't expanding. In this circumstance I could see using SS, maybe could even justify it financially. However, for me, every dollar I spend on a fancy fitting is 5-10 less taps I can add that year as I have expansion potential.

Is using a SS fitting going to to make me more money VS. adding 5-10 more taps. I doubt it. No matter how long the SS fitting lasts.

[PerryFamily]

One saying that has been repeated to me several times " you MONEY is made in the woods"

I think it comes down to what you can afford at the time...BUT....realizing that the increase in PRODUCTION and RELIABILITY will pay off significantly in the FIRST season.

I couldnt tell you how many times I have dug up a water line that is leaking and it is a plastic (nylon and PVC ) that has failed.

In Vermont anyway, if it is for drinking water, it has to be lead free. The Webbs near me stock mostly stainless now and very little brass. With the exception of T and Y, the standard SS barbed straight connectors ( splice ) are smaller ID than PVC but slightly bigger than the maple connector.

You can have a huge evaporator, big Ro and fancy equipment.....what good is it without SAP

Do the BEST you can afford and it will pay you dividends in the end.

[GeneralStark]

One other advantage to SS fittings besides the larger ID, extended life span, and reduction in leak potential is higher quality syrup. Plastic fittings produce a dam in the mainline that allows more slime to build up in the pipe, especially later in the season. Since I have switched to using SS I have seen less accumulation of microbial slime in the pipe. Light syrup is typically worth more, so to calculate the cost benefit of using SS over plastic, there are more factors to consider than mentioned above.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

"One saying that has been repeated to me several times " you MONEY is made in the woods"

I think it comes down to what you can afford at the time...BUT....realizing that the increase in PRODUCTION and RELIABILITY will pay off significantly in the FIRST season."


Perry Family, what research has proven increased production and reliability from SS fittings? I am sure there is something out there. The reliability must be that they don't break. I don't have plastic fittings leak, so I don't see that as a increased benefit.

I see it like this, if 500 gallons of sap comes out of my trees it will get to the sugarhouse with my "T" connections to the wet line. It may get there a few seconds faster with the SS "Y"s, but how much really? the Whip releases the gases into the dry line. I doubt sap is sitting in the end of my main with it's turn signal on waiting for an opening, it is always constantly merging.

I sense the theory is that when the sap releases into the wet line faster, it allows more vac to transfer to the tap hole, right? I think this may help in the case with little to no slope in your wet lines. Where the sap merger would be an issue. Otherwise, I think the extra cost of $50 +/- per whip doesn't justify the expense when you consider $50 will add 10 taps to the system and at .4 gpt, the additional syrup from new taps will increase production way more vs. using SS fittings.

I will have 20 whips after adding taps this year. That would cost me $2,000 to replace all fittings with SS. I can add 400 taps for $2000. What would you do? Money is made in the woods when you tap more trees....Not by having the prettiest system. Just my thoughts.

Let's just hope the drug addicts don't realize maple producers have thousands of $$ is SS fittings in the woods. All it would take is a headlamp and a knife and they could make off with piles of cash. I doubt anyone will be cutting out my plastic fitting anytime soon.

[Moser's Maple]

scribner's
no hard feelings hear, but you are way over thinking my use of stainless steel fittings here. here is my thought process behind the ss fittings.
1. this woods has been a 1000 tap woods since my family had started tapping in 1904..... no room for expansion, cause if you would read where I'm from you would realize I come from an area that has the most sugar house per square mile.
2. have you ever had to replace a t, or y during prime time of the season when walking lines.... and realized a tree limb came down over night and broke that fitting, and you have loss the total of that line since you last checked it the day before.
3. it's me, and my 70 year old father and I have a full time job, so you think about how much time I have to walk 2 separate woods with a total of 2500 taps ,collect the sap, help the old man boil, and fulfill our cream and candy orders.
4. reliability...... you're right.....I spent roughly $70.00 per whip, but that $70.00 that I don't have to worry about fixing, or replacing for a number of years. I did spent a lot per section, I also have section with pvc y's and I find my self replacing a few of these a year because of tree limbs, or animals, etc.....
I understand "your time is in the woods", but this is how I looked at it......$70.00 for 3 fittings......no breakage........ $3.00 for pvc fittings X 20 min per fitting fixed with an average of 3 per year = $9.00 + 1 hour of my life.......... now 1 hour with stacked logs + $10 in gas and oil for splitter and saw + $5.00 in general maintenance = 1 cord of fire wood cut and split @ $60.00 per cord......so a total of $45.00......... so after 2 seasons I have paid for those fittings on the low end of the scale, because in reality I know I can do more than 1 cord per hour when stacked for me.
If you notice I have a pvc valve in the photo...as soon as I get done paying for my new $15,000 RO (any comments???) I'll replace those with ss also, just so I know that are a low maintenance item.
The simple fact is I was just posting a pic to help those who may not know the "whip method", or understand it...... my intensions were not to bring up a ss vs. pvc debate....... In the future I'll be more careful not to offend others by my "fancy fittings"

[spud]

Some of you guy's sound like you must own stock in the stainless fitting industry. Maple sugaring is looked at in a few different way's depending on who you are. Some sugar for a hobby, other's will sugar to make a little extra income and others do it for a living. If a sugar maker chooses to use stainless fittings and blue mainline it will take them longer to make a profit. Using stainless fittings WILL NOT increase your sap production at all. Using stainless fittings WILL NOT make you a lighter syrup either. The only slime I see is on my first sap run while the new sap flushes out all the crap in the lines. After that my sap looks like water and make's light syrup. At the end of the season I have a yellow slime at the bottom of my tank after each run, but that is while we are making commercial grade. The poor quality sap at the end of the season happens no matter what kind of fittings you use. Those who don't get yellow slime at the end of the season are the ones that pull their spouts a little early because they don't want to make commercial grade. One of the big problems in the maple industry is a lot of the dealer's are full of crap. A dealer's job is to sell product or he will be out of a job. Another thing I have noticed is most dealer's bash PMRC and Cornell's studies. If you take the advise of most dealer's it will take you much longer to see profit (if ever). As soon as you get close to paying everything off the dealer will tell you to trade it all in for newer shiny equipment that will put you right back in the hole again. Dealer's should sell shirts saying ( We want your syrup check - All of it). A good dealer should want to see you make a profit as fast as possible. In MOST cases a person is far better off buying used equipment while setting up a sugar house. Although I would never buy a used vacuum pump. Stainless fittings will never make you more money in the long run and blue mainline will never make you more money in the long run. I look at sugaring as a money making business for me and my family. The name of the game is to make as much money as possible using the least amount of my money. I am not saying that buying stainless fittings, Blue mainline or new equipment is always wrong. For those of you who wish to waste your money on this stuff that's fine. Very few times would it be cost effective though. Just to set the record straight there are (some) real good dealer's out there.

Spud

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I would have to agree with Spud on this. I have a used arch, new vac, black main, and PVC fittings. I am in this to make a 2nd income and hopefully enough for a primary income someday. I need to make as much as I can for as little investment as possible to continue expansion. Which is why I enjoy this discussion and this forum.

Jake, I think you started a great post on the WHIP and think the PVC vs SS is a good thing to discus regarding the WHIP. For those new to the WHIP and setting up new lines, they can see how to do it, and can better understand the economic impact of each option. This sites purpose is to provide a forum for discussion and by doing so offer different information for new and old sugarmakers to consider, yes? I didn't mean any disrespect. I also should have chosen my words better with the Fancy fitting. I assure you, money aside, I would have SS fittings and valves.

[PerryFamily]

Spud- I own no stock in stainless fittings, but there are people on here who do in the check valves and push/defend/justify them pretty hard right? Anyway, spend what you can afford. I would rather spend money on a fitting that I can re-use, will not pull apart and is not going to break...period. Spend it once, spend it right. Anyway to each his own.

Scribs- As far as stainless being more productive you are right the fittings themselves will not be more productive. But when you add 400 more taps, and the sap finds that cracked or leaking fitting, what do you have then? Or your 400 taps are running, but cant get to your tank because the ice from last night is is stuck in your main. Wheres it stuck? At the choked down PVC fitting. Now how productive are your taps?

Anyway, if you are happy with your setup, great keep doing it. But I think you will find that the large producers who understand maximum production and reliability use stainless for a reason. Dealer sales persons not being one of them.

How long before "aftermarket" maple fittings are sold at places like webbs? Hopefully soon.

[spud]

I can only assume you are talking about Dr.Tim and the CV spouts. I have never felt Dr.Tim was pushing his spouts in a salesman kind of way. Dr. Tim and others at PMRC have spent years doing research on all kinds of spouts and have come to the conclusion that the Cv spouts out perform all others. The proof is in the research and the production numbers they and other have gotten using the Cv spouts. I think your comment is a bit of a low blow to someone that has helped thousands of sugar maker's become better sugar maker's (I'm one of them). The studies show that by the time your tubing and drops are 3 years old the Cv will help sap production. All dealers know this but not all would be willing to share this information with you. The reason for this is the only dealer to sell the Cv spouts are Leader dealers. I don't think a CDL or Lapierre dealer is going to tell you to go to Leader to buy your spouts (Do you?).

As far as the stainless fittings go I know they are great fittings. I also know they are not needed to make max GPT. You make it sound like plastic fittings break all the time or pull apart. I have had very few breaks and have never lost sap because of a break. I have never had a fitting pull apart because I put my fittings together the right way.

Another thing people might want to look out for using stainless fittings is scraping them with a knife while taking old mainline off. There is a guy in town that cut his tubing off stainless spouts and then the next year many of them leaked. He said the tiny knife mark on the spout caused the next years drop to not seal good and it caused a small leak. He had 10,000 of these spouts and no longer uses them. I don't know if this same problem could happen with mainline fittings but it sure would be something to look out for.

Spud

[PerryFamily]

Spud- I apologize for bringing another subject ( CV ) into this thread. You are correct the proof is in the pudding and no way is another manufacturer going to send you to their competition.

As far as stainless getting max GPT, you are correct they will not increase your GPT, but what good is the max GPT if you cant get it to the releaser due to numerous
factors, breakage, leaks, ice blockage, earlier freeze ups due to turbulence or whatever. If you figured the amount of POTENTIAL sap loss, or slow running over a season or several seasons it could be huge. The larger producer the bigger the POTENTIAL. SS fittings COULD pay for themselfs very quickly. Similar to an RO passing 1/8 or 1/4 % sugar. On a thousand taps, probably not huge, on 10000+ taps, thats a TON of money. My OPINION is to spend your money once and get the best you can afford. If you are happy with PVC go for it.

I have found with any metal fitting, with enough heat it will come apart without cutting. Its not pretty but it works.

[Moser's Maple]

as far as ss spouts i'm not sure how they react to reusing
with ss fittings I can safely state the following...... black pipe they go in with a main tool, or a little heat just fine, by the way this is with an outdoor temp of around 65 degrees
lapierre, and D&G I used an old wooden peg that tapered from 3/4in to 2in and was about 8in long. I would insert peg to expand ends, insert fitting and use the mainline tool with a little more effort. you can also use a little heat after end is expanded and push on fitting with a good deal of effort.
now 30p leader....... expand your end........ I personally had no luck with the mainline tool.....little bit of heat.....push your butt off.....little more heat....look at your hammer and contemplate pound the stupid thing on only to realize your could damage the end......push again....little more heat.....finally push till you turn purple and it slides on. I used Lapierre ss fitting and the od of the fitting without the barbs was the same size of the id of the pipe. so this definitely creates a tight fit....actually was wondering to myself if a person would have to clamp, but I did anyway....thought I'm spent $70 why not another $1.25 for the clamp.
so to make a long story short with the ss fittings when you reuse them I think if you may scratch a barb alittle it woiuld be just fine because they are such a tight fit. as for pvc fittings I have found the fittings from FW Webb seem to seal the best from my experience, there are other pvc fittings out there that I can't seem to get a good seal on them for the life of me....I'll check out who the distributor of these fitting are and let everybody know. I guess all fittings aren't created equal.

[unc23win]

I think that Jake's whip is very nice.

As for the fittings what is even better than both SS or plastic IMO? No fittings at all no splices, no couplers, no Ys, and no Ts in mainlines at all that is how I have my woods set up.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Perry has anyone done research on GPT of SS vs PVC? If it's agreed on that they are being equal, really what this comes down to is reliability and minimizing risk. With the SS, there is less risk that something will disrupt sap flow during the season. In Using PVC, I haven't had any break during the season. I put in new tubing and fittings 3 years ago. I do have one "T" that broke this summer from a fallen tree. But in another section I had a large poplar come down close to a whip and nothing broke. So the PVC are pretty reliable, and the one that did break will cost me $1.50 to replace (and time). I plan to have 2-3,000 on this wet line and if it is proven that SS will increase GPT, I will make that investment. Until then it is about maximizing $ per tap and GPT while making the best product I can.

[spud]

I think Jake's whip looks real nice also. A very clean look for sure. It's safe to say that one of the reasons I don't use stainless is because I have 7 kids to feed.:lol:

Spud

[maplwrks]

This horse is dead!!

[PerryFamily]

Agreed.....all in favor say I.....I.

[GeneralStark]

Perry has anyone done research on GPT of SS vs PVC? If it's agreed on that they are being equal, really what this comes down to is reliability and minimizing risk. With the SS, there is less risk that something will disrupt sap flow during the season. In Using PVC, I haven't had any break during the season. I put in new tubing and fittings 3 years ago. I do have one "T" that broke this summer from a fallen tree. But in another section I had a large poplar come down close to a whip and nothing broke. So the PVC are pretty reliable, and the one that did break will cost me $1.50 to replace (and time). I plan to have 2-3,000 on this wet line and if it is proven that SS will increase GPT, I will make that investment. Until then it is about maximizing $ per tap and GPT while making the best product I can.

PMRC has examined flow characteristics through various fitting types using clear pipe. This can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPykAPMym9c

I don't believe they have actually attempted to quantify yields using different types of fittings, but certainly one can pretty quickly see how stainless improves flow and vac transfer through mainlines.

Centre Acer in Quebec has studied the relationship between microbial growth in a tubing system and resulting syrup grade. I have only seen a presentation on this research and have been unable to find specific journals to post here, but their research provides some interesting insight. Much of their research compares blue vs. black mainline, but I do believe they examined other factors such as types of fittings, slope, etc.

I think the choice between using SS and Plastic comes down to individual business plans and personal preference. I personally think that in terms of the available science, there is no question in terms of the long term benefits of stainless, but that is considering my business plan and goals. We all have to make our own choices and there really is no right or wrong but what is right for one individual.

This is staring to sound like the chevy vs. ford debate and would have to agree with Maplwrks.

Jake, your whip does look good.

[BreezyHill]

Jake;
There is not implied or intended disrespect of you or the job done by anyone at any time in their woods. The sharing of ideas and methods is simple wonderful.

You do not ever have to justify your actions to me. I too have too many irons in the fire, full time: beef operation, feed mill, three boys that play sports year round, one now in college(3 hrs away playing keeper), two 4-H clubs, snowmobile club, etc. If I had a $ for every time someone said how do you do it all, I wouldn't need to work.

If it ant broke, don't fix it.

That being said. The debate of any and all things is to help those that want to do a better job than they are. To discuss/debate the cost of anything sap relate...well simple you maybe saving a persons farm. From personal experience that is a wonderful feeling!

For as long as I can remember we have only had the misfortune of a snapped connector once. That was my fault for catching a raised line with the tractor cab. With the wind storms and ice over the last 5 years we don't loss many branches except in the off season. The new line tools are a pleasure to work with and our shop will be turning out ones that I have designed soon.

Don't feel any ill will toward those that debate.

I drive Ford trucks. They stand up to the...overloading we do. Do they break? Dang sure they do. but with a 6.9 with 285K when it got hit, a 7.3 with 495K when the frame rotted thru, and a 6.0 that is getting a new egr & oil cooler tonight at 136K I wouldn't trust my business to any other lite duty. She leaves nearly every time with 3 ton on a F350 DRW crew stick. I will run her til they get the autos right.

Jake...keep on sharing! It really does make a difference in peoples lives and pocket books. Just think of the guy that has a problem with deer breaking plastic...now he knows that SS may help. 270 works better but to each their own. Lol

Ben

[spud]

GeneralStark,

I have seen this video before and there is a slight difference in flow for sure. It would be nice to know if there would be a higher GPT using stainless ( My guess would be no ). I still think as long as the wet/dry lines are the right size for the set-up a person should be just fine using PVC fittings. Using stainless would give a person peace of mind though knowing that their fittings are not going to break.

While looking at this video I noticed another video titled ( worlds largest sap run ) or something like that. If you watch the video you will clearly see the sap is being pumped into the releaser and it's not just flowing in from the woods. At the end of the video it shows the guy walking out behind the shack to close some valves.

Spud

[BreezyHill]

on a single lateral line at or near maximum capacity for the slope there is a slight possibility that there would be a GPT increase during max flow time. This would be not the case if there is plenty of slope or capacity so that the pipe still has room for vac transfer. The agitation that I have witnessed at connections is likely to disturb and remove an bacterial formation in plastic, while in ss that tiny pooling area is likely to be over swept by sap flow and be a potential issue.
On the other hand the vac swabs do go down the ss connections much better. But if they get stuck it is tough to split the line to retrieve the swab and put it past the joint. That's when we stopped using them and went to a good flush after removal and brushing taps.

Ben

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I agree this is a dead horse, but it gave me an idea I was wondering if anyone used.

My mainlines are 3/4. 500-100ft. The whip I build is connecting a 1" wet, to 1 1/4 dry and the 3/4 main. Typically I would use a 1 1/4, 1 1/4 by 3/4 for the dry, a 3/4, 3/4, 3/4 to receive the whip and a 1', 1', 3/4 for the wet.

The thought was about oversizing these fittings. Instead of using 3/4 for the whip, use 1". The new three fittings would be a 1 1/4, 1 1/4, 1" for the dry, a 1", 1", 1" for the wet and a 1", 1", 1" to receive the whip. Then use a 1" to 3/4 SS fitting to the main.

That way, where the sap dumps into the wet line from the main, it would be a`1" PVC which would help reduce the merging time of sap from the main to the wet. I may be over thinking this, but this may be a useful idea to increase the ID of the PVC fittings used for the WHIP and help sap flow? Since the cost of 1" PVC is still cheap I think it could solve the problem 3/4 PVC brings with the 1/2" ID. It would take one 1" to 3/4 SS connection to maintain the 3/4 ID the 1" PVC gives you.

No?

[delivron]

The advantage of SS Fitting are as follows:

1. SS made for maple applications maintains 99% of the ID of the tubing. Plastic fittings effectively reduce the ID by one pipe size.
2. Unless a tree falls directly on a SS fitting and a solid object the investment is a life time and then some.

[maple flats]

With the whip method I saw no need to oversize, no sap went up the whip unless the wet line was frozen. I do however use all SS insert fittings. If you use plastic fittings that may be a way around the bottle neck thru the fittings.

[GeneralStark]

I agree this is a dead horse, but it gave me an idea I was wondering if anyone used.

My mainlines are 3/4. 500-100ft. The whip I build is connecting a 1" wet, to 1 1/4 dry and the 3/4 main. Typically I would use a 1 1/4, 1 1/4 by 3/4 for the dry, a 3/4, 3/4, 3/4 to receive the whip and a 1', 1', 3/4 for the wet.

The thought was about oversizing these fittings. Instead of using 3/4 for the whip, use 1". The new three fittings would be a 1 1/4, 1 1/4, 1" for the dry, a 1", 1", 1" for the wet and a 1", 1", 1" to receive the whip. Then use a 1" to 3/4 SS fitting to the main.

That way, where the sap dumps into the wet line from the main, it would be a`1" PVC which would help reduce the merging time of sap from the main to the wet. I may be over thinking this, but this may be a useful idea to increase the ID of the PVC fittings used for the WHIP and help sap flow? Since the cost of 1" PVC is still cheap I think it could solve the problem 3/4 PVC brings with the 1/2" ID. It would take one 1" to 3/4 SS connection to maintain the 3/4 ID the 1" PVC gives you.

No?

Sounds like a good compromise. This should help vac. transfer but probably won't minimize ice jamming at the plastic fittings. That seems like one of the major advantages of SS fittings to me.

[maplwrks]

Bang!!!! It's dead!!

[maple flats]

Mike,
I don't think you or anyone else should declare this a dead issue. There seems to be plenty of interest, in 2 mos. time there are 92 posts, (counting your 3 trying to kill it, and another who looked for those agreeing in say I. No I's were heard.)
This is a very well looked at and active thread, showing more interest than most current threads. If you no longer have interest, just read other threads.
Dave

[BreezyHill]

The thread is alive!
This is a very active topic. It is all about $$$. Does spending more $$$ make more or is there a fine line between purchasing piece of mind and a perceived benefit.

We went away from SS due to ice issues, difficulty separating, and cost effectiveness. It was simply more productive for my situation to shelve the SS y and put in plastic. Last season when we retubed a section larger diameter was used with plastic.

Icing is a daily shut down issue at our brook. The SS connector was always the first line to freeze and last to thaw. Having spent quite some time watching the tubing this past season I notice that when the lines start to thaw there is a tiny amount of sap that starts moving in the ice on the edges. This would work its way toward the pump and then the ice would simple collapse inward and slide down the pipe. It seemed unaffected by connectors once this happened.

Since the SS is a better conductor I wonder if the ice was harder at the fitting thus causing our freezing

[Thad Blaisdell]

If freezing is an issue, I recommend black pipe..... thaws much quicker. All I can say is I use mostly all plastic. A few Stainless connectors but no Y's or t's. I have no plan to do so in the future either. I also do not use Blue pipe or anything but Black. The cost is just way to crazy. I process my sap so fast that heat does not play an issue to the sap coming in the sugarhouse. This year the plan is to boil twice a day. Thus eliminating any of the worry about sap being to warm.

Stainless is nice but for the conductors I like plastic. If a big tree falls on the line I want it to break. That way we don't stretch the line out of whack. Making the manifolds fall in the wrong spots and having more work to do.....

But then again one of the nice things is that this is a free country and everyone can do exactly what they want.

[spud]

Thad is 100% right in what he say's. If I had stainless fittings connecting my mainlines to my booster tanks it would be a nightmare. I want my fitting to break instead of my booster tanks getting cracked. If I had stainless fittings and blue mainlines I would have to wait till noon before any sap came to my releaser. On a normal sap run day I start getting sap in the tank by 9:30 am and then by 10:00 am I am up to 400 GPH. By noon I am up to 1000 GPH or more. If I had blue mainlines and stainless fittings I would lose over 1000 gallons of sap on every sap run. If I have 25 sap runs I could be loosing 25,000 gallons per season at .52 cents a gallon. That's over $12,000 dollars I would lose every year.

Spud

[PerryFamily]

Flats- I was not looking for anyone to agree, or disagree with me for that matter. I was merely stating my opinion.

If it works for you, continue to do it. If you cant afford it then dont. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. For every person that has a system that works for them, there will be three that disagree.

If you have black pipe or a warm bush that thaws go with plastic. If you have a cold bush, restriction causing ice to back up and stainless may make more sense.

Then again, who really cares everyone is gonna do what they want anyway.

Bang....I

[Moser's Maple]

So I'm so happy with all the responses to this thread, but with that said this is what frustrates me. I started this thread not only for myself, but for a person that might be considering a wet/dry conductor system. What this thread has become is a debate over ss vs. pvc fittings.... and now blue vs black tubing. these are all great debates and I think each one can be answered as simple as it's your $, it's your woods, and each place has it's own unique environmental factor that may drive you to choose the different tubings, and fittings.
It's also frustrates me that now somebody that may be interested in pics of the whip, or how it might be installed, now has to scroll through pages of not essential information to find what they want. As for me, if I was looking for some info and clicked on a thread that had 90 some replies it could intimidate me to further pursue the thread just because of all the effort it would take to find the information I was looking for.
Now here's something to think about, and maybe help me out. Why is it you can pick up any of the manufacturers catalogs and find ss y's in everyone of them accept for leader. and why is it only cdl carries pvc y's that exceed 1x1x1. My wet/dry is 1in wet, 1 1/4in dry, with 1in main laterals. do you have any idea how hard of a time I have had finding a pvc insert fitting that is 1 1/4x 1 1/4x 1 to go from my dry to my lateral. I have no problem finding these in ss. I have found them in cdl, but my dealer does not carry them in my area and it's a 4 week wait for them.....really???? I did find these on a website, but to buy 10 at 3.19 a piece, I have to pay 18.35 in shipping......are u kidding me!!! I know for a fact all those would fit into a flat rate padded envelope for 6 bucks.
So if you want to really help out fellow producers debate this..... why is it so hard to find these fittings???? If you can get this easily, then post where they can be found and ordered online. show pics of different setups....maybe of the manifolds, maybe of boosters....or other ways of doing a wet/dry conductor. lets get over mine is better than yours/ black is cheaper than blue/black is better than blue/fittings fit into blue better than black, because we all know here that your syrup is better than everybody elses, and if not then you should rethink your sales strategy....... instead lets focus where to get fittings for various size wet/dry systems, how much they cost, what other materials you need for the hook up(eg clamps, etc.....), the best places to get them, why you may want a shut off valve, why you may want a vacuum gauge, what kind of vacuum gauge will hold up best to the conditions, why the maple guys only sell y's up to an inch....... The reason I joined, and keep coming back to mapletrader is to learn, and to share my knowledge in the maple industry.....now I know I'm no expert in everything, and am wrong in my views on occasion, but I do know I don't check this site 3 times a day to read about a pissing contest, or beating a dead horse. I love the debate, but lets take that passion and turn it into a positive knowledge enriching adventure for the novice.

[spud]

I think this thread was very helpful in many ways. As far as having 97 replies I think that is good. If you're feeling is only a few members should respond to any giving thread then you are wrong. All members have the right to reply to any thread as many times as they want. I do not think we got off topic by talking about different fittings or mainlines because they all tie into each other while making a whip. A members thoughts although at times can get silly should never be looked at as meaningless. If I was looking up a topic such as CV2 spouts I would be in hopes of seeing hundreds of replies so I can read them all and get a real good idea as to what people are saying about them. I am not a person that would get intimidated by to many comments on a thread. Nobody forces a person to click onto any giving thread.

I am a 20-30 minute drive from Leader, Lapierre and CDL in Saint Albans. All three stores carry every fitting known to man kind from what I can see. I have always gotten what I needed from these stores. Our local ACE Hardware also sells all the fittings for CDL. Webbs is also stocking shelves with sugaring items. I place my order over the phone with CDL and they bring it to my house same day. I think if you're having a tough time finding certain items it's because the demand for those items in your area are not high. When and if the sugaring industry should grow in your area then you will see more stores carrying more items.

Spud

[Moser's Maple]

sugaring industry grow in Lewis County, NY (lol)
that's great you are that close, but not all of us have that convenience.
on FW Webbs website you can't buy a 1 1/4 x 1 1/4 x 1 y
I understand dealers may have fittings not listed in catalogs, but I have discovered 2 things. they all have full time jobs in my area and are hard to get ahold of, and if they don't have it in stock it seems to be a wait time to get what I want. Now if I can call cdl in Vermont, order my fittings without going through the dealer and they ship them to me at a reasonable rate then by all means I will do that. What just makes me curious is why the manufacturers don't have websites you can order from.... the local dealer would be credited, but this would give the sugar maker a location that they could go to and get what they are looking for, without having to play phone tag or calling numerous places to try to find what your looking for. I also understand that I should have a responsible order of what I'm going to need for my upcoming installation, but -----happens and you may use an extra fitting here, extra there, or decide to add another whip here to make it more efficient. I don't want people to think I can't find any fittings because I can pretty well get what I need, except for the specialty y's and flexible vacuum hose, but what drives me crazy is the wait time I have to get these certain items.
by the way this was # 100...... now we're in triple digits

[unc23win]

I think this has been a very useful thread as well. Jake had a very nice whip design. Some people use whips and some people don't it is a matter of preference. I get on here a couple times a day as well to see what I might be able to learn from others or possibly help others you never know. As far as fitting choices and pipe choices it is up the the person doing it, yet it doesn't hurt to hear someones reasoning or (story) about why they use what they do. Obviously when choosing fittings you might have to work with what you can find. We don't have FW Webb around here either. When it comes to special fittings I get them from Bascoms or Leader there aren't too many dealers around here and they don't stock PVC Ys and such. Maybe if you are looking specifically for 1 1/4"x 1 1/4" x 1" SS is your only choice. Maybe 1"x1"x1" would work then you could use PVC I guess that depends on the sap volume.

Personally I have never tried SS fittings I have no whips YET (if I were to try one I would use the picture of Jake's that I downloaded) and I avoid having mainlines that branch out I use strictly boosters and that set up does not require Ys or Ts. I am of the less connections less problems philosophy (maybe thats not helpful). Last year when I was first starting to set up my vacuum I sought help from a fellow trader by sending a PM (I chose them because by reading their responses I determined they had a set up like I wanted) and that paid off HUGE.

[maple flats]

If freezing is an issue, I recommend black pipe..... thaws much quicker. All I can say is I use mostly all plastic. A few Stainless connectors but no Y's or t's. I have no plan to do so in the future either. I also do not use Blue pipe or anything but Black. The cost is just way to crazy. I process my sap so fast that heat does not play an issue to the sap coming in the sugarhouse. This year the plan is to boil twice a day. Thus eliminating any of the worry about sap being to warm.

Stainless is nice but for the conductors I like plastic. If a big tree falls on the line I want it to break. That way we don't stretch the line out of whack. Making the manifolds fall in the wrong spots and having more work to do.....

But then again one of the nice things is that this is a free country and everyone can do exactly what they want.
If I have a tree fall on my conductors, my side ties break, not the fittings.

[GeneralStark]

If freezing is an issue, I recommend black pipe..... thaws much quicker. All I can say is I use mostly all plastic. A few Stainless connectors but no Y's or t's. I have no plan to do so in the future either. I also do not use Blue pipe or anything but Black. The cost is just way to crazy. I process my sap so fast that heat does not play an issue to the sap coming in the sugarhouse. This year the plan is to boil twice a day. Thus eliminating any of the worry about sap being to warm.

Stainless is nice but for the conductors I like plastic. If a big tree falls on the line I want it to break. That way we don't stretch the line out of whack. Making the manifolds fall in the wrong spots and having more work to do.....

But then again one of the nice things is that this is a free country and everyone can do exactly what they want.

Thad,

I seem to remember some photos of your setup with some pretty impressive stainless steel boosters. Are you not using those anymore?

[GeneralStark]

sugaring industry grow in Lewis County, NY (lol)
that's great you are that close, but not all of us have that convenience.
on FW Webbs website you can't buy a 1 1/4 x 1 1/4 x 1 y
I understand dealers may have fittings not listed in catalogs, but I have discovered 2 things. they all have full time jobs in my area and are hard to get ahold of, and if they don't have it in stock it seems to be a wait time to get what I want. Now if I can call cdl in Vermont, order my fittings without going through the dealer and they ship them to me at a reasonable rate then by all means I will do that. What just makes me curious is why the manufacturers don't have websites you can order from.... the local dealer would be credited, but this would give the sugar maker a location that they could go to and get what they are looking for, without having to play phone tag or calling numerous places to try to find what your looking for. I also understand that I should have a responsible order of what I'm going to need for my upcoming installation, but -----happens and you may use an extra fitting here, extra there, or decide to add another whip here to make it more efficient. I don't want people to think I can't find any fittings because I can pretty well get what I need, except for the specialty y's and flexible vacuum hose, but what drives me crazy is the wait time I have to get these certain items.
by the way this was # 100...... now we're in triple digits

CDL sells the IPL plastic mainline fittings that have a larger ID than the standard plastic plumbing fittings. I assume this is what you are referring to? I use these in some areas and they are a good compromise IMO. They also are longer so there is more contact between the fitting and pipe.

I am generally in St. Albans once a week and could pick you up some and ship them flat rate if you are interested. PM me if you are.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Thad,

I seem to remember some photos of your setup with some pretty impressive stainless steel boosters. Are you not using those anymore?

Not boosters.... they are the manifolds that Glenn Goodrich sells. I used them on my original bush of 4900. I used them because that is what was installed by G. G. I would not use them again. They are a very decent product but you spend way too much money on them. A simple whip is all you need.

[GeneralStark]

Not boosters.... they are the manifolds that Glenn Goodrich sells. I used them on my original bush of 4900. I used them because that is what was installed by G. G. I would not use them again. They are a very decent product but you spend way too much money on them. A simple whip is all you need.

Manifolds yes. I agree that a whip is all you need. Does G.G. still use those Frankenstein SS manifolds?

[TheMapleMoose]

Wow, 11 pages of information, phew that took some reading. I have a few questions as this is the first bush we will be setting up a true wet/dry system.
We are installing a 1" over 1" with 3/4 branches
Do we use a 1x1x1 Y in the wet line and then a 3/4x3/4x1 T in the branch? Or just a 1x1x3/4 in the wet and leave the branch T @ 3/4x3/4x3/4?
Is there a recommended distance to keep the branch T away from the main lines?
How long and/or how high should the whip be?
We were thinking of hanging our wet and dry on the same wire, with the whip method is this possible? If not why do they need to be separated by some distance when whipping?
Any other advice I am naively missing? (Other than whether to use ss or PVC, pretty sure I've got all the advice I need there:D )
Thanks guys!!

[maple flats]

They need to be separated, because you are using gravity to separate them. I suppose if you had a very sturdy cable for support the dry could be hung tight to the cable and the wet about a foot below. That may not be practical. There is no std. distance to keep the branch T away. The proper terminologies are a branch is a "main" and the wet/dry are "conductors" The conductors should be about 1' between them, with the wet under. Then as the main nears the conductors (most of mine are between 3-6' away at the T) the main gets a T with all 3 sizes matching the main. You could also use a bull head tee (the upward facing leg at the size of the dry line, but I don't). Then as that whip joins the dry line, and as the main joins the wet line the sizes are just what ever the situation calls for. For example, I have mostly all 1" mains (a few older, shorter mains are 3/4"), My conductors are 1.5" over 1.25". My T in the main is 1", then my wet line Y (less turbulence at entry point) is 1.25 x 1.25 x 1, and my dry line Y is (yes a Y here too, air turbulence is not the issue, but if the wet line is frozen my sap goes into the dry line) 1.5 x 1.5 x 1. The whip between the main line T and the dry line Y usually stands about 1' or so high above the dry line to help keep the sap from entering the dry when the wet is not frozen.

[TheMapleMoose]

That all makes sense. When you talk about some people using a T at the main to upsize the whip to the dry line size, it seems as though I've heard talk of leaving the whip @ the size of the main and increasing the main between the T and wet line Y to the size of the wet line to help keep the sap from wanting to jump up the whip. Path of least resistance thinking but if most people don't change size until the conductor Y and are making out fine I won't go reinventing the wheel.
Do the Ys in the wet conductor go on top of the pipe or do you spin them around towards horizontal some?

[ToadHill]

Interesting discussion. I installed whips several years ago before we called them whips. A dealer sold me some PVC y's and told me to use them instead of boosters. I ended up with sap in my dry line on a regular basis. I removed them and went back to boosters. While I know that you want the sap to go in your dry line when the wet is frozen, this was all of the time. I've since realized that it happened for a combination of reasons. I'm sure that sags in the wet line were impeding the flow so the better air flow in the dry line helped suck sap up into it, but I also believe that I installed the whips to flat. This was partly due to the fact that the wet and dry were on a very steep slope which caused the whip to be very nearly horizontal. I also suspect that the size of the whip was a factor. A smaller whip is more prone to sucking sap up into it. All of that said, if I do it again I will use tees on the main and the dry with a vertical hoop. I will also make sure to avoid sags in any of my lines.

[spud]

Randy,

I checked out your site and I must say your sugarhouse is real nice. I plan to build a new sugar house in the next few years and timber frame is what I am thinking. Your set up is very impressive. Wish you the best.

Spud

[ToadHill]

Thanks Spud. I appreciate the compliment. Still trying to learn everything I can about the maple business.

[sjdoyon]

The timberframe construction is top notch and you left yourself plenty of room to work. If you did the construction yourself, congrats.

As for sap getting in your dry line, we had a similar problem the first year we set up, found out we had some pitch issues which was freezing our wet lines at night causing the sap to jump into our dry lines until wet line thawed. We corrected our pitch issues and we no longer have an issue.


Thanks Spud. I appreciate the compliment. Still trying to learn everything I can about the maple business.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Thanks spud.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I know you meant the other randy. My pics are on www.hubbardtonsugarmakers.com. Nothing like toad hills but adding on to the s.house next year. Not enough room.

[unc23win]

I think they are both very nice sugarhouses. I was just looking at www.hubbardtonsugarmakers.com I like the step by step pictures. I am currently building my sugarhouse 30x36. Right now I have the slab and concrete blocks laid. I am building mine into a bank so the tanks are above. Hoping to start the walls tomorrow.

[spud]

I know you meant the other randy. My pics are on www.hubbardtonsugarmakers.com. Nothing like toad hills but adding on to the s.house next year. Not enough room.

Randy,

I checked out your site and photos. You have a very impressive set-up and sugar house also. The step by step photos are nice.

Spud

[Randy Brutkoski]

ty. But there is always room for improvements. Going to use my auto draw off this year. No longer gun shy about using it. Also adding another post onto the r.o.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I took a few pictures of my whip for an example of a different way of doing it. I use three fittings, with no shut off after the whip. Instead I use the shut off on the whip and where the main and the wet meet. This eliminates a fitting from the main, and is one less place for ice problems. I don't use "Y"s and haven't had an issue with sap coming down my dry line. It did come down the Dry line on a few days it froze hard and only for the first hour of the run while other things were still frozen.

The three pictures I included are - one showing a broken PVC fitting where a tree had fallen 10 feet away from the whip. The 40' tree hit it with it's top ten ft (meaning it had a lot of force when it hit the lines). It only broke one fitting ($1.50)

Also included is a picture of my main meeting the wet, the Whip coming down into the main with a shut off, and showing a shut off at the wet/main connection.

The last picture is of a typical whip in my woods showing how much of a loop I use. I have others with a larger loops.

I am not saying this is the only way, All I know is it helped me produce more sap last year than ever before by over 25%. So it is working.


794779487949

[Maplewalnut]

Scribners thanks for pictures.

Just curious, why do you have two shut offs on each trunk line?

Thanks
Mike

[unc23win]

That looks pretty good. Seems like with a whip that size you get a nice loop and there is no need for a y.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Mike,

The thought behind the two shutoffs was to eliminate the shut off that most people have in the mainline after the whip. For that style whip, in the mainline you have 3 fittings the sap travels through to get to the wet line; the T or Y into the wet, the T or Y receiving the whip, and the shut off after the whip. In my setup, you only have two fitting sap travels through. I don't know if one is better than another, but in mine it goes through the fitting receiving the whip (with shut off threaded into it) and the shut off that is threaded onto the wet line. The extra shut off on the whip allows for me to shut the entire line off to isolate. I think the reason why I did it this way was to eliminate a fitting and possible ice dam location. I haven't had any problems with this setup yet.

Going a step further, I intend to build the next 3/4 main whips using 1" fittings instead of 3/4. That way when the 3/4 main sap hits the whip its meets a 1" fitting and pipe all the way to the wet line and should only leave the one 3/4 fitting in the main to cause ice problems.

Ben

[Brian Ryther]

8897
This is why I have switched to "the whip" this year. I have replaced 9 of these pvc air water separators this year. They are great in theory and seam to work very well, until they break. And they break often. It seams that those with whips do as well as those with separators when it comes to yields. So good by pvc.