Upgrading Vacuum system

[opiejudd]

Hello,

This will be my families second year of sugaring. We had an okay first season. We didn't have a great gpt ratio. We had a .12 gpt last season. I'm looking to upgrade/improve our sugar bush lines. I have been reading tons of threads and I want to make sure I'm headed in the right direction. I"m thinking i need to add a few vacuum boosters to our sugar woods do to how long our main line is. Its about 1500 feet. And I'm torn on if we should jump to a wet/dry line system or try vacuum boosters. I don't know how much vacuum was in the woods so I'm going kind of blind into this.

Thanks,
Ken

[maple flats]

Give us more information.
1.What pump do you use?
2.What size lines do you have?
3. What was your vacuum at the pump?
4. Did you walk the lines during the season to look for leaks?
5. Do you have neighbors with a similar aspect (the bush, cold valley, south face, ???) and how much did they make?
6. When did you tap?
7.How many taps?

While a wet dry system is good, it is not needed for all situations. Most often the cause is a mainline that is undersized. Boosters may help but more often the line should be changed or a dry line, 1 size larger should be added. It is best not to run laterals into a wet/dry, but rather they enter a main that branches off from the wet dry. Where they branch off you should have a manifold. I started my wet/dry with conventional manifolds but last year I started a much simpler and more forgiving method. I now run a T facing up a few feet back from the wet/dry. This then enters the dry line at a second T. The main then goes to the wet and enters it using a T. This method is fast and easy to install and is more forgiving if a branch falls on the wet/dry system.
A second method is to just remove the old and connect a larger main line.
A third might be to separate the existing into 2 mains. At about the mid point (tap wise) cut and terminate the existing main. Then run a new main from the releaser manifold to pick up the remainder. You might even want this 1 size larger.
The btter choices can't be decided until we get more info. Then in the end, it should still be your choice.

[GeneralStark]

I would suggest going to this page: http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/web/schedule.htm

Then scroll down and select the "View" option for the vacuum systems webinar. Sit back and listen as everything you need to know is there. There is also an excellent series of files included with the webinar that provide lots of good info.

It is hard to say what you should do without specific information about your woods, so you are better off learning the basics for yourself, then coming back with more specific questions. You could also have one of the dealers come walk your woods and provide some suggestions. I tend to be more of the DIY type so the Cornell info. has been extremely useful.

[wiam]

I hate to start the "booster" debate, but I do not believe adding boosters to a system that needs major upgrades is going to give more sap

[opiejudd]

Give us more information.
1.What pump do you use?
2.What size lines do you have?
3. What was your vacuum at the pump?
4. Did you walk the lines during the season to look for leaks?
5. Do you have neighbors with a similar aspect (the bush, cold valley, south face, ???) and how much did they make?
6. When did you tap?
7.How many taps?



1. Its an industrial pump. I will have to look the specs up. It was getting thrown out at my fathers work cause the motor mounts broke.
2. We are running 3/4 inch line.
3. We were running 28 inhg.
4. We walked the lines almost every day. Looking for leaks.
5. Not that I know of. Everyone around use are much bigger then us.
6. Too early. I believe it was the first week of February.
7. We had 190 on vacuum. Will be 200 to 250 this year.




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[opiejudd]

Thanks for the web link. I will be gathering all the information I can from that.

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[mapleack]

Did you check vacuum level near the end of the mainline during season? Though if you had 28" at the pump and only made .19gpt I think there were more problems than just pipe size.

[wiam]

With 1500' of mainline I doubt you are getting good vac at the end. I think you need a dry line.

[opiejudd]

Did you check vacuum level near the end of the mainline during season? Though if you had 28" at the pump and only made .19gpt I think there were more problems than just pipe size.

That's were we messed up. We never got a reading out in the woods. Switching to vacuum was very last minute. We actually started the season on just gravity. So we were learning all through the season. Now I'm trying to get ahead of the game.

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[ennismaple]

Ken,

1500ft of 3/4" mainline means you are getting very few CFM's out in the woods and may need a booster or dry line. How much slope did you have on the mainline? How many taps per lateral?

[opiejudd]

Ken,

1500ft of 3/4" mainline means you are getting very few CFM's out in the woods and may need a booster or dry line. How much slope did you have on the mainline? How many taps per lateral?

We have a great slope in the sugar woods. But it flattens out and has a very minimum slope to the sugar house. And our laterals vary from 3 taps all the way to one that has about 25 if not more on it. ( that was a last minute add witch is getting fixed this year.) But most are around 7 taps on our 5/16 laterals.

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[jrmaple]

I think the most reasonable thing you could do is increase the size of your mainline to 1", and run a wet/dry line as well to get constant vacuum all the way through. Depending on how level it is near your sugar house, you could have limited room in the 3/4" pipe which would dramatically decrease your vacuum past that point. That is why I recommend using 1" mainline AT LEAST for the first 500', then you can decrease to 3/4" with more slope and less taps. The 1" will also give you room to expand in the future. Good luck.

[TRAILGUY]

that is what I got on gravity. I have been planning and reading for vacuum next year so I know nothing. But from what i read going from steep slope to flat jumps out at me. bigger main or wet dry on the flat section is where I would look first. Around here it started early and i had 1/3 before many even taped.

[opiejudd]

Well I got to take a closer look at the lines tonight. We have 2 major sags in it as it sits now. So our plan is we are going to bump our hieght up about 2 feet. To add to the slope. And we are most likely going to add a dry line to the "flat" section. Then put a manifold at the end of it. For 2 wet 3/4 inch lines. That go up the steep bank of the sugar bush.

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[maple flats]

Generally it is not recommended but I think you would be best off running a 1" dry line over a little to the side with a new 3/4 wet line under it. Then break the existing line like 1/3 and 2/3 and then connect the break points to the wet/dry thru a manifold or the way I like is using tees or y's. The beginning line at the releaser would just go directly to the releaser. Then you will have 3 connections into the releaser, the wet, dry and the lowest section of main. If this is too much to invest all at once, add the dry line off set maybe 2-5 ' to the side of the existing main and about a 1 higher. Then in 2 or 3 locations run a line from the main to the dry by putting a tee in the main pointing straight up and loop a piece of line up and then down into the dry. At the dry it can enter with a t too. Then when you can afford to add the new wet line, put it under the dry line and then cut the old main just down stream of the dry line T and either tie it to the new wet line using a T or a Y. Then cap the top end of the the remaining main and repeat again downstream another 500' or so (or every 75-100 taps, which ever comes first.) A wet/dry line will give good vacuum transfer at the top as long as you have properly sized lines for the number of taps and no low spots that pool sap and block good vacuum transfer. The last part is the pump. You have good vacuum at the bottom, but is the pump big enough to get enough at the top?

[opiejudd]

The pump we have is a 7 cfm pump. Is that big enough? My next question is do I need to jump up to a 1 inch dry line or can I use 3/4 inch for the dry line. I'm asking that because we have a bunch of 3/4" line still. But we will most likely end up getting 1" line. Money is very tight on this project.

Thanks,
Ken

[maple flats]

For the tap count you have the 3/4 is fine. It all depends on what you maximum total will be. It is not wise to put this up if you will outgrow it in a short time. If you won't grow much larger in the next 5-10 years, by all means use the 3/4" for dry too.
On a tight system 7 CFM is good for up to 700 taps. Most like some wiggle room and might only go 3-400 for a margin of leeway on leaks repair.

[opiejudd]

At this location we are pretty much maxed out. We might be able to get 300 taps. But I highly dought we will go any higher then that. If we go for more taps at this location we will have to go down over a bank and that's a whole new headache.

Thank you,
Ken

[GeneralStark]

The pump we have is a 7 cfm pump. Is that big enough? My next question is do I need to jump up to a 1 inch dry line or can I use 3/4 inch for the dry line. I'm asking that because we have a bunch of 3/4" line still. But we will most likely end up getting 1" line. Money is very tight on this project.

Thanks,
Ken

7 CFM at how many inches of vacuum? Some pumps are rated at 15" and the CFM rating is lower at higher vacuum levels. For a 300 tap system I am looking at setting up, I am planning to use a pump that can produce at least 5 CFM at 28" of vac.

The more mainline and dry line you have the more CFMs you should have. I won't need more than 700' of mainline conductor, with a dry line, but it looks like you have 1500' of mainline. If you continue to use the 3/4" wet line, you won't get more than 2 CFM at the end of it, so depending upon your budget and how conservative you are a 3 CFM pump (at your desired vac. level) may be adequate.

[opiejudd]

We are going to run a 3/4 inch dry line on the "flat" part of our sugar lines and go from there. Mainly do to having extra 3/4 inch line already. And we will be putting vacuum gauges out in the woods this year too. Thank you everyone for your help. I will throw some updates up as we go along with this project. I just found the inhg to cfm chart for our pump. And at 28"hg it moves 7 cfm.

Thanks,
Ken

[BreezyHill]

Pump is good for what you have. Slope is the issue on the flat. Less than 2% with that vac reading and you may limit transfer. Vac Boosters...don't increase vacuum numbers. They only allow surges to be reduced to increase transferal of vacuum. Dry line of 3/4" will do wonders. 3% stretch is the number you should be looking at when installing a mainline. measure the distance, either with a wheel 200' tape, or comparable. I don't suggest gps as they can be off by 1-5%. Measure pipe or stretch each individual section as one. Stretch in summer is much easier but DONT OVER STRETCH ON REALLY HOT DAY. Otherwise it will be piano wire tight in winter and can pull apart if you don't use clamps.
Send me an email and I will send Steve Childs sheet on CFM transfer it is for 1" line but he talks about 3/4 also. It will shock you on cfm transfer for long distance(200' +). This is a must read for anyone that installs main tubing in lengths over 150'. It will also explain how your 7 cfm is plenty for your 1500' system and a bigger pump is just wasted $$$.

Added elevation is a great move at the start of the transfer to the sugar house. The more the better...as this will give you more slope and higher GPM for the mains.

Good Luck Ben

[opiejudd]

We are defiantly at less then 2% slope from the sugar woods to the sugar house. So hopefully with the wet/dry line and better transfer of vacuum we will be at closer to .5 gpt if not higher. But only time will tell. We probably wont be pulling lines until August / September so hopefully it wont be to hot. And we double clamp each side of our connections. So we should be safe there.

Thanks,
Ken