Small Pump for High Vacuum

[GeneralStark]

I may be setting up a small woods this fall and am wondering what folks are using for pumps for high vacuum (25-28") for 300-500 taps. I have lots of experience with liquid ring pumps, but most I have seen are larger than necessary. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[spencer11]

I have a gast dry vane pump, it does pull high vac, it's 8 cfm. Not sure what model it is but I would look into one of those, mine was given to me, but they can be found pretty cheap

[whalems]

There are a lot of gast pumps on ebay at very reasonable prices right now. I have a 2565 and it was pulling 25" on 500 all season.

[madmapler]

The gast 2565 and the 2567 are the highest hg. pumps with the highest cfms. 28 hgs at 0cfms. They can reach 21cfms but I dont know how many hgs. they'll be doing at that rate. The 2565 is a pulley mount and the 2567 mounts to the motor shaft. I'll be running 2- 2565s on a 3.5 hp gas engine this season for 600 taps. They're nice little pumps for not a lot of money.

[nymapleguy607]

I have a kinney 2 stage piston pump I'm installing for next year, 29" at 15cfm according to the spec sheet

[spud]

I have a kinney 2 stage piston pump I'm installing for next year, 29" at 15cfm according to the spec sheet

If you don't mind me asking how big of a pump is this? How much did it cost? I have a Kinney 10 HP and I love it.

Spud

[GeneralStark]

Thanks for the ideas. Keep them coming. After a quick search it looks like the Gast 2567 is pretty easy to find for around $500 bucks. Only 1.1 cfm at 25" though.

I assume that you guys that are running these at 25" are really staying on top of the leaks. Are you running the pump 24/7 during the season? Are these pumps built to last under continuous duty? How much mainline do you have set up?

It looks like there are many types of Gast pumps out there and most seem to not be appropriate for sugaring applications.

[whalems]

I run 2 mainlines one is about 300' with 150 taps and the other about 700' and 350 taps. I use a Bernard double mechanical releaser. I run it any time the temperature is above freezing and for as much as a week at a time. Lots of producers run the gast rotary vane pumps and are satisfied with them. some run the 1550 on around 300 taps I was told I could run as many as 1000 on the 2565. we will see?

[Gary R]

I run a Gast 2567. It was about 27" at the pump. I only have 136 taps but I have three ladders to lift also. Vacuum varies a lot at the tap hole. About 800' of mainline. This year was the lowest sap per tap at 23 gal. of the three years I've ran it (I think I need new drops). Mine has run for weeks with no problems. I have it in an unheated barn. I have four Gast pumps here from Ebay. All of them have issues. After a couple of years and a lot of money messing with them, I'd buy a new 2565 from Drill Spot. About $1K with motor, no oil and no headaches:)

[Kirk]

We run Gast 1023 or 823 pumps. On 575 taps, we had 22" at our releaser. They don't pull much air at the higher end of the curve, so we are very mindful of leaks. The gauge on our releaser is a very good leak indicator - if we have one drop get disconnected, we'll lose 5-10". Time to take a walk!

[GeneralStark]

My concern about these low cfm pumps is that the vacuum reading at the releaser is not really indicative of vacuum levels at the taphole, which is where it really counts. Are any of you guys running these Gast pumps testing vacuum out in the woods or are you just hoping what you are seeing at the releaser is what you are getting at the tap hole?

[spencer11]

i put a vac gauge at the end of my mainlines, its not exactly "at the tap hole" but its about as close as you could get without spot checking

[heus]

I use a Gast 3040 dry rotary vane on 350+ taps (500+ this coming year). Runs all day at 21-22" but gets pretty hot higher than that. Lots of cfms though. Its the bigger version of the 1550 model.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Airablo makes a small 8 cfm. vane pump. We own 2 of these units.(each runs about 800 taps) Real compact- come with reclaimer, pump, and humidity trap all mounted on same platform. Use hardly any electricity.(runs on 3/4 hp. electric motor) These are bulletproof pumps.The oldest one is 10 years old and never had a problem with it. The other was purchased in 2009. We run 26" at releaser and same at farthest taphole in woods. Recovery is good- only drop about 1" in vac. with a dropline off. Would not hesitate to buy another(D&G and Leader both sell them)IF you have any more questions, feel free to pm. me. I could ramble on about these pumps all day.

Neil

[TheMapleMoose]

Thanks for the ideas. Keep them coming. After a quick search it looks like the Gast 2567 is pretty easy to find for around $500 bucks. Only 1.1 cfm at 25" though..

When you get to 25" than I would expect the CFM to be low. You aren't moving much air above 25". Some of the mfg will show the performance curve of the pump to give you a better understanding of this.
The airablo mini flood is a great pump I agree. If you have plans for 500-800 taps I would def recommend one. We used one for two seasons on 500 taps with 1000' of vacuum line to the releaser with no vacuum loss and on 1500' of mainline with a sap ladder we could get 21" at the end. Probably could have been higher without the lift, due to the la k of transfer through the ladder. We could get 24-25" at the releaser.
If you want high vacuum out of these ( 26-27+) you should look at adding a cooler kit. I've got one coming this year with a cooler kit and it added 675.00 to the price of the pump. At 5% for every inch over 25" it's a good investment for my set up. We have a 3hp airablo that replaced our old 3/4 hp when we added another grove and it has a cooler kit. We've been very pleased with the performance of the cooler getting us to 27-28" at the releaser.

[philkasza]

I know this is going against what a lot of people say but, I figure atleast 3 cfm per 100 taps (it does not cost much to get bigger than you "need") and here is my reasoning; for those times when a spout comes lose or have a small leak, do you want to lose 2" of vac or 10"? Sometimes it may be all day before you check for leaks again so that is a lot of hours of loss. And definitly go with a liquid ring pump not vane pump, liquid ring can pull higher continously. Your pump is your money, if you skimp on the pump you are losing lots of syrup. You will probably get 10% more production for every inch above 25" you go. We went with a 75 cfm oil liquid ring pump from Indiana Vaccum for a 1900 tap woods this past year and held close to 27"+ all season long and came out with about .6 gal. of syrup/tap. You do the math, for another 1 or 2 thousand you may make it back in a week, or a year or two.

Samuel

As a side note you need enough cfm to suck all the air out of the system faster than it is coming in before you start pulling much vac. Cfm and Inches go hand in hand so don't cheat yourself on either.

[PerryFamily]

Liquid ring vs rotary vane
While at the vacuum seminar at bascoms, the leader rep had a lot of info in regards to vac loss due to various size leaks. I do not remember the specifics but in a not shell this is what he said: because a rotary vane moves more air ( cfm ) during a major leak ( spout out ) situation, vac loss through out the remainder of your bush would not be as severe as with a liquid ring pump? Anyone agree or disagree?

He also said that according to numbers that producers have given to them, vac of any kind ( high/low, constant on/off ) will yield 2.5 times for sap than gravity or buckets. I think that says it all.....vac it is.

[Big John]

nash elmo 1.4hp liquid ring. 18 cfm. pricy but well worth it.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Liquid ring vs rotary vane
While at the vacuum seminar at bascoms, the leader rep had a lot of info in regards to vac loss due to various size leaks. I do not remember the specifics but in a not shell this is what he said: because a rotary vane moves more air ( cfm ) during a major leak ( spout out ) situation, vac loss through out the remainder of your bush would not be as severe as with a liquid ring pump? Anyone agree or disagree?

He also said that according to numbers that producers have given to them, vac of any kind ( high/low, constant on/off ) will yield 2.5 times for sap than gravity or buckets. I think that says it all.....vac it is. That is true. Vane pumps built "specifically for maple production" have a better recovery than a ring pump of comparable size and show less vacuum loss with leaks in the system than a ring pump will. That being said, there are pros and cons to each pump.
Neil

[TheMapleMoose]

I will say that if you want to use a vane pump you are wasting your time without a cooler. I think if you are planning on using a liquid ring you should size the pump to atleast 2 CFM per 100 taps. I'm sure there are some plus and minus points to both and you should pick a pump that you feel comfortable with

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

I will say that if you want to use a vane pump you are wasting your time without a cooler. I think if you are planning on using a liquid ring you should size the pump to atleast 2 CFM per 100 taps. I'm sure there are some plus and minus points to both and you should pick a pump that you feel comfortable with I have never used a cooler on these small pumps, so I can't speak from experience on these, but have a 30 cfm 3hp. Airablo that we installed a cooler on. We used to run 24" on this unit running 1900 taps, but with cooler ,we now run 27". This brought about another issue though. With the oil being cooled so drastically, we now have excessive condensation in the oil and have to drain that off everyday.

[PerryFamily]

I am also looking to put vac on a small ( 1000 tap ) bush.
While at the CDL open house I spoke briefly with the rep from air tech. Also spoke to another producer from northern Vermont who had the 3 hp version and loved it.
The pump would be going at the property owners shop so quiet and compact were a must. These seem like really nice units but.....are kinda pricey.
I priced out the 1.5( 25 cfm?) hp pump from CDL and it was $3200 +/-, now add in the electric vertical releaser and moisture trap and you are in the $4500 range.

I know the increased sap production will most likely pay for itself in one year, but are there alternatives to this vane pump with the same characteristics but maybe a little more......uh......cost effective?

I really like that it is compact, quiet, oil cooled and 110 volt.

Trying to spend more wisely.
Thanks in advance

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

I know this is going against what a lot of people say but, I figure atleast 3 cfm per 100 taps (it does not cost much to get bigger than you "need") and here is my reasoning; for those times when a spout comes lose or have a small leak, do you want to lose 2" of vac or 10"? Sometimes it may be all day before you check for leaks again so that is a lot of hours of loss. And definitly go with a liquid ring pump not vane pump, liquid ring can pull higher continously. Your pump is your money, if you skimp on the pump you are losing lots of syrup. You will probably get 10% more production for every inch above 25" you go. We went with a 75 cfm oil liquid ring pump from Indiana Vaccum for a 1900 tap woods this past year and held close to 27"+ all season long and came out with about .6 gal. of syrup/tap. You do the math, for another 1 or 2 thousand you may make it back in a week, or a year or two.

Samuel

As a side note you need enough cfm to suck all the air out of the system faster than it is coming in before you start pulling much vac. Cfm and Inches go hand in hand so don't cheat yourself on either. I purchased the same pump this year and ran 4400 taps with it. Performed flawlessly all year and maintained 27.5". Art makes a great product! General Stark, sorry to have steered off the main point of your thread.
Neil

[spud]

[QUOTE=philkasza;226542]I know this is going against what a lot of people say but, I figure atleast 3 cfm per 100 taps (it does not cost much to get bigger than you "need") and here is my reasoning; for those times when a spout comes lose or have a small leak, do you want to lose 2" of vac or 10"? Sometimes it may be all day before you check for leaks again so that is a lot of hours of loss. And definitly go with a liquid ring pump not vane pump, liquid ring can pull higher continously. Your pump is your money, if you skimp on the pump you are losing lots of syrup. You will probably get 10% more production for every inch above 25" you go. We went with a 75 cfm oil liquid ring pump from Indiana Vaccum for a 1900 tap woods this past year and held close to 27"+ all season long and came out with about .6 gal. of syrup/tap. You do the math, for another 1 or 2 thousand you may make it back in a week, or a year or two.

I would agree on what you are saying. Oversized would be better then undersized. The cost difference is not enough to take the chance.

Spud

[nymapleguy607]

If you don't mind me asking how big of a pump is this? How much did it cost? I have a Kinney 10 HP and I love it.

Spud

The pump is a KC-15 model pump, It runs on a 1hp motor I bought this one used off ebay and gave $650 for the pump and motor. It came wired for 3 phase so I will swap motors. I plan on running 300 taps and a sap lift with this pump and I'm hoping to maintain 28" in the woods. Definitely overkill for my setup but the price was right

[lpakiz]

Jeff,
You may want to check on running a VFD converter from Factorymation.com or several other VFD sellers.
You could run that motor faster or slower than the standard 1725 RPM to maintain the vac you want. It takes single phase input (110 or 220) and puts out 3 phase power as well as allowing you to select any HZ speed you want, from maybe 20 HZ to 120hz. 120hz would turn the motor twice as fast as normal. (3450 RPM). About 30 HZ would make the motor about half speed. (875 RPM). You can adjust to the 1/10th of a hz. Really lets you dial in the pump speed, and also set an acceleration rate for soft starts. Not that hard to program, either. They are really reasonable-less than $150 delivered. Mine for 1/2 HP was $122 plus less than $10 for shipping. Because of these cheap phase converters, 3 phase motors are no longer the white elephant they used to be.

[tuckermtn]

here is one on ebay now
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kinney-KC-Series-KC-15-KC15-Two-Stage-Rotary-Piston-Vacuum-Pump-/221236736849?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item3382bcb351

wonder if you could run it on gas- and how many RPMs do you need for optimum vac levels. How much oil vapor does it give off? Reclaimer and cooler?

[Amber Gold]

Matt,

I've run a 1.5hp LR pump (15 cfm) on as few as 400 taps and as many as 830 taps and pull 26.5". It is 3phase w/ a VFD. I haven't put a vac. transducer on it, but considering it. This season, it'l have ~850 taps on it. I'd recommend having a backup VFD, or pump, in case the VFD fails...happened before.

[TheMapleMoose]

What changes the frequency of the drive if you aren't using a vacuum transducer?

[500592]

How many taps you think that Kinney kc 15 is good for 800?

[TheMapleMoose]

How many taps you think that Kinney kc 15 is good for 800?
I would think 1000 at most.

[GeneralStark]

Lots of great ideas here and no worries regarding steering the conversation off track. Finding small pumps for small woods (less than 1000 taps) can be tricky, but you guys have come up with some excellent alternatives.

I find that I keep coming back to using a 1.5 hp 3phase liquid ring pump with a VFD. I have had good luck with this setup on my present leased woods. I lease woods and equipment from two friends and all told we have almost 2,000 taps on which we use two LR pumps and VFDs. One is generally a backup and both were acquired on the cheap. I plan to continue leasing this woods but may be setting up a new sugarhouse on 13 acres nearby that my partner and I are under contract to purchase. This is why I am looking for another pump. We are not sure yet how many taps we could have in the new woods but I suspect 5-600 eventually.

I have had my eye on the 1.5 hp nash elmo and I know I could find one new for about 2,000$. I too looked at the air tech pumps when at the CDL open house, and they seem solid as well, though pricey. I suspect though that with a purchase of other equipment through CDL it could be had for cheaper than the price quoted above.

I really like the idea of using a 3 phase pump and VFD and coupling it with a vacuum transducer to control the speed of the pump. It seems like using a larger pump than necessary can work out in this scenario though there are limitations with a LR pump.

The big thing for me is using a pump that is continuous duty and will provide high vacuum and the necessary CFMs to maintain high vac. in the woods. I will definitely be using an oversized wet/dry system in the new woods and want to be sure the pump can keep up.

[lpakiz]

MapleMoose,
I don't have a transducer either. To change the speed of my blower motor, I use my index finger on the "up" or "down" arrow button on the keypad. :).
I would like to know where to get one and how to use a transducer on one of these VFDs.

[GeneralStark]

MapleMoose,
I don't have a transducer either. To change the speed of my blower motor, I use my index finger on the "up" or "down" arrow button on the keypad. :).
I would like to know where to get one and how to use a transducer on one of these VFDs.

My experience with transducers and VFDs is that the type of transducer to use really depends on the type of VFD you are using. The transducer needs to be able to read to the vacuum levels you are looking to achieve, it needs to send a signal to the VFD that the VFD can read, typically 4-20 ma, and the transducer needs to be powered. Some VFDs can provide the 15-24 VDC that the transducer requires, but sometimes this power is too "dirty" to work effectively. We have a Setra Model 209 which seems to be one of the more commonly used transducers in the maple world. We are using a 24VDC power supply which is wired into a "loop" that is connected to the VFD, the power supply and the transducer.

Then, the VFD needs to be programmed and once again this is very VFD dependent. Basically, you can instruct the VFD to slow the motor when the vacuum level you desire is achieved, but how this is done depends on several things, and that depends upon your VFD. A good neighbor friend is an electrical engineer with lots of experience with VFDs and sensors and he has been very helpful in all this.

Additionally, where you install the transducer needs to be considered and you should put it where the vacuum is most consistent. With mechanical releasers this can be tricky as every time the releaser trips, the vacuum level drops between the releaser and pump and throws the VFD and transducer off. If there is a check valve between the main chamber of the releaser and the manifold where the mainlines connect, this can be a good place for the transducer as the vacuum levels stay relatively constant. It is easier with electric releasers.

[GeneralStark]

I found a performance curve for the Gast 2567 with a 2hp motor and it appears that when running it at 60hz, it could do about 2 cfm at 25". It seems that this could be a decent pump for 2-300 taps if the mainlines are short and oversized. Also, with a 3 phase motor it could be controlled with a VFD and transducer. This could be a decent candidate for me for my first setup in the new woods as we will probably only be able to get 200 taps the first year realistically as we will also be building a sugarhouse and setting it up.

It will all come down to finances and timing though and in the end it may make sense to spring for a 1.5 hp LR pump the first year. Or I could use the gast for a year or two and then sell it. Decisions.

Are these pumps run completely dry, or is there an oil component?

[TheMapleMoose]

It seems like it should be more than capable of handling 300 taps. The 100 (or 50) taps per CFM is based on pumps rated at 15" hg if I'm not mistaken. I.e most pumps in the maple world atleast are rated at 15" vacuum. The 2567 looks like a 10cfm pump at 15" meaning 1000 taps based on the 100:1 rule. I could be missing something

[Gary R]

There are many different models. The XX65 series uses a coupler to the motor and is lubricated. It uses a very small amount of oil daily. The blow by is capture in a jar at the exhaust. The XX67 series has lubricated (V1) and oilless (V103). They are direct mount to the motor. The oilless has carbon vanes and has nothing added. The Gast site has all the specs. These aren't efficient pumps but the have virtually no maintenance.

[GeneralStark]

It seems like it should be more than capable of handling 300 taps. The 100 (or 50) taps per CFM is based on pumps rated at 15" hg if I'm not mistaken. I.e most pumps in the maple world atleast are rated at 15" vacuum. The 2567 looks like a 10cfm pump at 15" meaning 1000 taps based on the 100:1 rule. I could be missing something

The 1CFM/100 tap rule applies at whatever vacuum level you wish to operate at. For the 2567, which is rated at 2-3 CFM at 25", it should handle about 300 taps at 25". If you want to run the system at 15", this pump probably could handle 1000 taps, but why would you want to run at 15"?

There seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding about cfm ratings of vacuum pumps. Some are rated at 15", but if you want to operate at high vacuum you need to consider the decreased capacity of the pump as it needs to work harder to achieve the higher level. Most manufacturers provide performance curves for their pumps so it is easy to determine the cfm rating at a given vacuum level.

[tuckermtn]

took a look at the small (8cfm) honda powered airablo pump at Bascoms today. nice looking compact rig. looking back at this thread, folks mention 25" for this pump. would the oil cooler (to get to 27.5") be over-kill on the small airablo pump?

but then your at $3800+/- and you are close to the Indiana Vac oil cooled gas powered rig that is 20cfm.

[Moser's Maple]

just buy the Indiana, and sit back and enjoy the trouble free years you're going to have with a pump 3x the size for the same price. I heard a rumor that lapierre is trying to get art (Indiana vacuum pumps) to build pumps for them. must be he's doing something right over there.