long term planning for tubing

[TRAILGUY]

I have lots of gully and may have 4 or 5 main lines. The last one out in the woods would have 50 taps a 30 ft drop 1400 ft run for main line and need 8 to 12 ft sap ladder. I was thinking of go with 3/16 without vacuum close to a 50 ' drop in 200' think may be more cost effective and with the distance and sap ladder natural vac would be close to vacuum. any thoughts??? If I try 3/16 tube would do this year vac is still a few years away' NOW 9 55 GALLON DRUM AND ALL 5/16 GRAVITY

[TRAILGUY]

ran 1500 feet of string to mark future main when I go to vacuum. really learned a lot and will make running main much easier. only one leg will need a sap ladder. If I do 1 at 3 1/2' and one at 6 ft I can pick up another 6 taps with out back feeding or is one 9 ' ladder and back feeding a better way to go. Another section would have a 30 ft drop from the releaser so I going to try 3/16 tubing on it.

[maple flats]

The way you describe it is confusing me. Can you give more info on where everything is located and what the elevations are? Try this link, I found it very helpful when I planned out my system http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/elevation If you can locate your location on the map you can get the elevation of various portions of your layout.

[TRAILGUY]

in a few week the county is give a course on gps and google maping that I hope to take.

starting at the releaser and tank.
go 150 (crossing a logging road) rising with 2% slope
drop 6 feet and go 50 feet rising with 2% slope
drop 3 1/2 feet and go 100 feet rising with 2% slope to the end of the main

or
go 200 (crossing a logging road) rising with 2% slope
drop 9 1/2 feet and go 100 feet rising with 2% slope to the end of the main

2 sap ladders instead of one

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

How many taps are we talking about on this whole system?

[lew]

From your original post, I gather that you are going to use all natural vacuum. I don't think that you will be able to run sap ladders on natural vacuum. YOur natural vacuum is developed in the 5/16 (3/16). Once it runs into the mainline you don't necassarily lose your natural vacuum but you would need a lot of taps to continue to have a good enough vacuum in the mainline to make a sap ladder work.

[maple flats]

In fact, for natural vacuum you would need to fill the mainline. Natural vacuum is only achieved when any line is full and has the needed drop in elevation. It takes far too many taps to ever fill even a 1/2" mainline to count on it.
Can you possibly do a line drawing of your proposed bush, with slopes indicated and post it? That may help. Also, post the possible taps on each section, approximate is OK for taps, but slopes should be more specific. You can get close enough just using a hand held site, such as http://www.surveysupplyinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.prodInfo&prodId=57185 or http://www.amazon.com/CST-Berger-17-620A-Hand-Level/dp/B002ISC2V2/ref=dp_ob_title_hi
These help a lot. I use the second one. If that is the case I suggest you buy 2 to get free frt. , then have a spare or sell the spare to another maple producer. The maple catalogs sell those for well over $30.00 ea.

[BreezyHill]

For a ladder to work you need one inch of mercury to raise sap 12"...this is due to the specific gravity of the two products. In order to raise sap 9' it must drop 9' first. As Dave K. stated you will need to have the line full to accomplish the production of vacuum. You will also need to have additional drop to over come the friction loses of the sap that is being pulled up the tube. Where there is a will... there is a way...I am sorry but I think a used vacuum pump is your best answer, but that will bring issues of transporting enough cfms( cubic feet per minute) to raise the sap up the ladder. The further from the pump the ladder the less the cfms available with out the use of booster tanks. The initial size of the pump in cfms doesnt make any difference at a distance 800' of 1" tubing due to friction loss. Smaller tube will have more loss per volume.

Do you have a gps? I do mapping for our snowmobile club. It is very easy to do and I strongly suggest getting familiar with a unit before you go to class; but first find out what unit the class is based on. I started with a magellan unit. Great reception in the woods with full leaf canopy, easy to understand software at the time. I went to NYS class for mapping and they liked the Garmin 60cs or 60csx unit. So everything I already knew was worse than pointless it was nearly backwards. So I had to forget everything I had learned and learn a new unit. The second class I went to was more useful because I now knew how to run the Garmin. I will be more than happy to help you with a garmin. you can get used units/refurbished/ new on ebay for less than at most stores. I can also give you a copy of how to use these units to map a trail, hand guide. It will be very useful in laying out a tubing line if you also use the topo map program. These are great tools...but...I think you would be better off with a hand level and a few rolls of different color servey tap. You will need the HL to lay the line in the woods since gps is only accurate to within 20' when you have great satalite coverage on cloud free days in open fields. I can email you a guide on how to use a hand level. I was taught by my dad that was a NRCS agent and built ponds, tile lines, contour strip cropping systems, etc. He worked with as little as 1% slope in our bush with great results.

Ben

[TRAILGUY]

The class is on garman and I also am a trailmaster for snowmobile clubs and have user other peoples gps after they set me up but I have so much to learn about them and thought at the class I might see witch one I like the best. I have shot some areas with a transit as my brother does septic system designs. So here is the big picture as I guess I am not very clear as always sorry will try again.
I have 5 different sections to my sugar bush. I am planning to go to vacuum of three of them with 7 to 10 cmf pump and a hobey releaser, The other two sections have over 30 feet of drop and farther in the woods so was going to use 3/16 on them.

this is vacuum planning only, with 7 to 10 cmf
1. 100 taps mostly SM, needs 600 feet long 3/4" main with 2 to 4 % slope passes through a 18" culvert with good drop on the down slope side( there is another 50 reds that I may tap if needed that would add 400 feet of main)
2. 200 taps mostly SM, needs 600 feet long 1" main to 3/4" main with 2 to 4 % slope passes through a 15" culvert with good drop on the down slope side
3. 100 taps mostly SM, needs 400 feet long 1" main to 3/4" main with 2 to 4 % slope passes through a 18" culvert with good drop on the down slope side
Here is my question. starting at the releaser and tank,go 150 (crossing a logging road) rising with 2% slope at that point I am 10 feet in the air, then drop 6 feet and go 50 feet rising with 2% slope, then drop 3 1/2 feet and go 100 feet rising with 2% slope to the end of the main

or go 200 (crossing a logging road) rising with 2% slope, then drop 9 1/2 feet and go 100 feet rising with 2% slope to the end of the main
this would use one sap ladders instead of two which is better for vacuum on remaining 60 taps?

hope this clear cause I like the input as I like to do it as right as possible the first time

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

I would not use sap ladders.. I would put vac where it was convenient and run vac line to releaser and tank 200' to lowest point of your woods, then pump back to road. No matter how you build ladders, you will lose production due to longer freeze-ups and loss of vac. If you want maximum production out of your taps, this is the way to go. Neil

[TRAILGUY]

are you saying use a second releaser and tank further in the woods. Is it worth it for around one hundred taps? vacuum (power) will be around 700ft from the first tank and releaser I could go another 700 ft (1400 Total) and pick up more taps. how big a pipe and how far is it practical to run vacuum to a releaser?

[BreezyHill]

My experience as a second generation tapper is ladders do work. Yes they freeze, but in my case the mainline over the brook freezes before the ladder freeze that go over the same brook 200' down stream. My ladders are a little over sized...one line has a 13' then 14' then 14'. Next year it will have three more added to it to bring in another 200 taps. They will all be 12 to 14'. Send me an email and I'll forward Steves research to you on vac calculation and cfm. bhffeed@msn.com its a word doc, like 9 pages long.

How Long can you run vac...how long can you run the pipe? It will suck as far as you run the pipe...the issue is that the longer the run the less the cfms will be available to draw on the tap holes. on a 15 cfm pump at 6000' you will have 3 cfm..while on a 100 cfm pump you will have 3 cfm, on a 1" line. Pump capacity
Distance in Feet 1” mainline 15 cfm 30 cfm 60 cfm 80 cfm 100 cfm
0 15 30 60 80 100
50 14 23 28 28 28
100 13 18 20 20 20
200 11 14 14 14 14
300 10 12 12 12 12
400 10 11 11 11 11
500 9 10 10 10 10

This is from Steve Childs paper from Cornell Univ.

You might want to wait on buying supplies for a bit...I have asked about the affect of adding vacuum boosters in the line as to their affect. I have a 2000' run to get 300 taps it was a single wet line of 1"...I was redoing as awet dry of 3/4" with blk on top for dry line so that when the wet is frozzen I can still get that early am run sucked to the sugar shack. In his RP the .75 line will handle the sap volume/ hr I just need to calculate the vac transfer will be enough for the 300 taps. The paper has all this in it along with: .2 gal/ tap for exceptional flow, flow capacity for 3/4 & 1" on 2%,6% 10%,15%,& 20% slopes.

2nd releaser and pump and all the wire to run the pump will be fairly costly. Well lets see: 100 taps at .25 gal syrup at $30 bulk rate is $750. gould pump $1000, $1500 for releaser, plus wire, 200' of 10 ga outside wire is about $215. Iam not saying that 10 ga will be big enough...check with your local code for that.
Personnelly I would not invest the exctra $$$.

.41 gal syrup/ tap in 2013
2x6 evap w/ steam hood and preheater
memtek RO
73 & 75 delaval vacs
bb1 & 4 surge vac
delaval glass reciever and stainless pump to glass pipe system
Air tight arch
all taps vac to the 26x30 sugar shack
2014 will see: stack preheater for a 1 hp blower for air over fire system

[TRAILGUY]

The good news is most of this is planned for 2014 and 2015. thinning sugar bush, clearing roads to tank and releaser location now. When I ran my Strings for proposed main line it was rain heavy and I had a small water flow and found out I did not spot tank at the lowest point (could see water flow) so cut , mowed and backhoe another spot 150 deeper in the woods. Going to look at another possibility and may move again as all this input keep me dreaming. Between jobs so spent the whole week in the woods and started working on energy grants. If I added a 4 Ft sap l I could be much closer to the sap house and power however that would add 200 taps on sap ladder and I do want to keep taps on ladders to a minimum. I collect with a tractor so I do not need a pump in the wood at this time

thanks all,for opening my eyes before I run tubing.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

We have 3 different setups where we run a second releaser off the same pump now. One is running 400 taps and is 600' from pump and main releaser, one is running 550 taps and is 2000' from pump, and the other is 250' from pump and running 400 taps(soon to be 1500). These are on 3 separate woods. We do not use electric pumps. In every instance,we use a $250 gas pump from TSC. Only takes 20 minutes to empty 1000 gal. tank. We had ladders for 2 years on one of these setups and switched to separate tank and releaser 3 years ago. Since switching, vac. runs 2" higher and throughout the 3 years have averaged 5 gpt more sap per year than the previous 2 years on ladders. I attribute this to running higher vac. consistantly and also not as long a freeze up time, especially in the morning as things are thawing out. Neil

[BreezyHill]

Neil,
how much time does it take to go out and gather from the tanks? I cant gather from our main bush unless I run it all down to a local road. We stopped that 25 years ago after the sap was stollen for a week straight and then the tank was gone one morning. I sure don't miss going and pumping and running the truck to the sugar house and draining the pump every night.
I think that steves research explains alot of why after ladders we had low vac years back but by putting in a needle valve and letting in a pin prick of air on the furthest tap it clears the 5/16 line of sap and runs vac all the way thru by bubbling the sap thru the ladders faster. I can get high twenties at the end with leakers running. Without them I was struggling to get past 20". The lines were to full to let vac over the sap and pooling at the ladder. Dry line going in this summer on all lines. The paper also has me looking as making vac boosters for every 250 or 500' of mainline. I can build a booster for less than $40 that is 2.35cf. It can be a challenge to get a ladder working well. I stumbled on adding the leaker when I put in my vac check gauge and flooded the vac pump trap on a ladder near the sugar shack and left the needle open a tweek. When I got back down the line was at 28" and the ladder was jumpin. I sent the wife to HD and cleaned them out of needle valves. boy did that releaser work hard for a bit. I still have some 100' 5/16 runs with 40-50 taps a peice; but the leakers keep the lines clear and the vac up...ok...not good. Next year I'll have two pumps to get the vac up and shut one down after level is up and ice is cleared, and during heavy flow periods if levels drop too much.

I bet your two year planning is from your trailmaster experience.lol We have to do 3 year plans over hear in NYS.

Ben

Ben

[TRAILGUY]

if I go with 1% slope on a section I may be able to go out further with out a sap ladder. Am I trading one problem for another?

[maple flats]

I'd go the 1% slope. The only issue then is making sure you have no sags. Make sure you have enough support even if you need to put in support posts. It can be done. Anytime you can eliminate a sap ladder it is a plus.

[BreezyHill]

1% will work...but...remember that from 6% slope to 2% slope, 1" mainline goes down over 50% capacity of gallons/hr. down to 1% slope will be as much if not more of a reduction...less gravity to over come friction. Remember the volume of a mainline is that of its flattest slope area; so the drop after the culvert will help to clear the line but the culvert may be your bottle neck. A 3.5' ladder is really simple to accomplish as is anything up to 10'. After 10 feet it gets more tricky...but...for $6.99 or less get: brass needle valve, 9" 5/16 tubing, clear check valve spout, y for tubing, cap for y. and tee for tubing.
Place tee on table, on short side connect 4" tubing, add single side of y to tubing...so two outlets are up
place cap on angle side of y...
add 3" tubing to straight side of y...
screw the bottom of valve into tubing so that handle is up...
attach 2" tubing to valve and add tap so that check valve is pointing down.
Finally place the apparatus at the end of a tubing run to your ladder after the last drop.
You will need to adjust the valve so as to gain the desired amount of air needed to produce bubbles in the ladder to assist in raising the sap. The most I have is 1/2 turn.
To check the vacuum level: remove cap on y and affix vacuum gauge.
If you have time to experiment...adjust needle valve to get the most vacuum in the line. This will take some time as it takes time for the system to balance flow of sap and vacuum. It can be allot of fun...take a pencil & pad and write notes as to adjustments and results. one drop of the wife's nail polish on the packing nut and the handle is an easy way to mark closed and where your most vacuum level was reached. Two colors are great for closed...red & another for most vac. Dollar store sells it too.
You are asking all great questions. People don't plan to fail...they fail to plan!

Ben

[pdr]

BreezyHill, you said "... I still have some 100' 5/16 runs with 40-50 taps a peice ..." A tap every 2'? What's your secret? :)

[BreezyHill]

That is on the state line between vt & ny, and an old hedge row. Some spots you cant walk between trees. Since they are on a field edge they have huge canopies. several trees that are 6 feet across...200 yrs plus, down to 24" diameter. We also have a brook that runs thru the farm. All along the side of the brook between the field are maples that for many years were hooked to 5/16. Next season they will all be on 3/4" mains. The farm has been in the family since 1907. You only cut down dead trees was my grand fathers way. Maples seldom die here, elm & ash do a lot. I only recall logging twice. Only for Oak, cherry, & beech. Front woods is about 3 acres of 90% Maples for 300+ taps.
I have to say that I only cut down maples that grew in the field edges, but now they get dug up if they are good and straight and go where we have ash that are dropping like flies. Dr Tim is right about bush management...take care of the bush and it will reward you well :)

[TRAILGUY]

Was out with the transit to see if I could go lower slope and go further in the woods with out a sap ladder. So here is the rub the main line would be so high in the air that could not reach the taps.
So here is the plan for taps to be vacuum
Line 1 620 ft at 4 to 5 % 100 taps
Line 2 640 ft at 2 to 4 % 200 taps
Line 3 300 ft at 2 % 50 taps then a sap ladder then another 150 ft at 2 % and another 50 taps

then another 100 taps on 3/16 using natural vacuum. I hope this is the biggest bang for the buck. Did a few hours of thinning in the rain where I plan to start this year.

[BreezyHill]

Sounds good. IS there anyway to get the ladder closer to the vacuum pump. The closer it is the more cfms the line will have and be more effective. Look at the cfm chart...the higher cfm rating is closer to the pump. If you could have the ladder at 150' and travel the 300' after ladder you will get better lift, since the cfms really drop after the 200' distance. This will also give you better vacuum levels past the ladder and more sap in the collection tank.

Nice to see there are other people that live on that sugaring high all year long! LOL

Ben

[TRAILGUY]

I can shorten it by 50 or 60 feet. Was thinking of running 1 " to the ladder would that help? Also should I run 1" on line 2 on the flatter section near the tank?

[BreezyHill]

Trail guy...so sorry I thought I subscribed to this thread my apologies!

1" will give you better vac transfer. The flatter the grade the more important the 1" line will be.

Also on the flatter slope the more crucial the pipe not having pools in it is. I use colored as I cant see in the black to find a pool of sap on my limited slope mains. It isn't sarcasm it is just easier to maintain lines that you can see the flow in. The cost savings of a few cents a foot is made up in higher production. Pools block vac transfer. Nothing worse than finding a pool surging back and forth as vac is made and lost.
I found one of these last season and hocked the gauge past the surge on a lateral. 8". Got the pool out by adding one support that the deer had nocked out and I was at 23" in the time I was able to walk back to the gauge some 150' away. My son asked what did I do the releaser went crazy for a moment and then back to steady dumping.

Looks like it should work well.

Good Luck!