"what it takes to achieve high yield production"

[Brian Ryther]

On a average season I can almost hit .5 gpt of syrup. I would like to do better.

[maple flats]

Wouldn't we all. I'm still looking for the .5 gpt.

[brookledge]

Keep improving your pipeline. I know they have computor monitoring programs to monitor vacuum levels in the sugarbush, but the cheapest test is to take a vacuum gauge and adapt it to a rubber tube that will fit over the style tap you use. go to various points and pull the tap shove the gauge on it and see what you got. Then make changes to increase the areas that are the lowest.
Then the other thing is constantly walk your lines. For me it gets old real quick but I make time to do it. Another way of further increaseing the GPT is to decrease the tap count on large trees reduce to one or two taps at the most.
This year I made .59 GPT and I know I can do better. As I look back it is hard to believe that I use to be happy with a quart per tap. that used to be the level that producers called a full crop. Now anything under .4GPT is a bad year for me.
I know some producers can not use tubing or vacuum for geographical reasons but to make a 1/2 gal per tap vs 1/4 adds up and if you want to make more syrup, I feel you are better off increasing you GPT instead of just adding taps.
Keith

[DrTimPerkins]

Three major factors are important in achieving high yields:
1. Trees
- size, health, good growth rate, crown exposure, nutrition
2. Vacuum
- proper tubing layout, good tubing installation, wet/dry lines as necessary, low # taps/lateral line.
- vacuum pump capabilities and management (on all the time, or off/on depending on temperature)
- rapid leak detection and correction
3. Spout/drop sanitation
- new spouts every year and new drops every 2-4 yrs (depending on several factors), or
- new CV spouts each year

[DrTimPerkins]

... the cheapest test is to take a vacuum gauge and adapt it to a rubber tube that will fit over the style tap you use.

Although this is useful in some respects, it isn't a completely true representation of what the vacuum level is at the taphole when the sap is flowing. As soon as you pull the spout, the sap in that line is sucked rapidly into the mainline, leaving a completely empty lateral and dropline. So the vacuum you read doing that is the highest it is likely to get. When there is a lot of sap and gas moving through the line (the normal situation), the vacuum is typically not quite as good.

[brookledge]

I agree with the fact that it will quickly empty the lateral line if you are not quick. And it will likely give you a slightly higher vacuum level since the lateral line has been evacuated. But at the same point doing this through out the bush will show you if your mainlines are undersized in some areas.
Keith

[DrTimPerkins]

But at the same point doing this through out the bush will show you if your mainlines are undersized in some areas.
Keith

That is correct.

[markcasper]

Keep improving your pipeline. I know they have computor monitoring programs to monitor vacuum levels in the sugarbush, but the cheapest test is to take a vacuum gauge and adapt it to a rubber tube that will fit over the style tap you use. go to various points and pull the tap shove the gauge on it and see what you got. Then make changes to increase the areas that are the lowest.
Then the other thing is constantly walk your lines. For me it gets old real quick but I make time to do it. Another way of further increaseing the GPT is to decrease the tap count on large trees reduce to one or two taps at the most.
This year I made .59 GPT and I know I can do better. As I look back it is hard to believe that I use to be happy with a quart per tap. that used to be the level that producers called a full crop. Now anything under .4GPT is a bad year for me.
I know some producers can not use tubing or vacuum for geographical reasons but to make a 1/2 gal per tap vs 1/4 adds up and if you want to make more syrup, I feel you are better off increasing you GPT instead of just adding taps.
Keith

You pretty much summed it up. Below .5GPT and there is something wrong in my operation, or it was a very bad year such as last year. It seems many producers where I live just tap the crap out of the trees. All you have to do is take a drive and its just amazing to see how many taps some of these guys are putting in the trees. The sad part is that you see many at seminars and meetings and unless your sleeping, it has been said for awhile now to be conservative in how one taps. And the fact that putting in extra taps DOES NOT mean more sap. I have heard of several producers yields in my area this year, and most of them are reporting that they are quite happy. On the contrary, I would be saying to myself, what did I do wrong?

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Although this is useful in some respects, it isn't a completely true representation of what the vacuum level is at the taphole when the sap is flowing. As soon as you pull the spout, the sap in that line is sucked rapidly into the mainline, leaving a completely empty lateral and dropline. So the vacuum you read doing that is the highest it is likely to get. When there is a lot of sap and gas moving through the line (the normal situation), the vacuum is typically not quite as good.

I check the vac. levels at individual tapholes throughout my woods as well. So I can get a more accurate reading, before I pull the tap, I pinch the dropline off with needle-nosed vise grips so as not to lose vac. to the lateral line, then pull the stubby, insert vac gauge into spout, unclamp vise grips and check vac., re-clamp vise grips, put spout back in tree and lastly unclamp drop. This doesn't interrupt the vac tansfer in the system. I use short pieces of 5/16 tubing on the vise grips so it doesn't damage the tubing. Neil

[Mark]

Three major factors are important in achieving high yields:
1. Trees
- size, health, good growth rate, crown exposure, nutrition
2. Vacuum
- proper tubing layout, good tubing installation, wet/dry lines as necessary, low # taps/lateral line.
- vacuum pump capabilities and management (on all the time, or off/on depending on temperature)
- rapid leak detection and correction
3. Spout/drop sanitation
- new spouts every year and new drops every 2-4 yrs (depending on several factors), or
- new CV spouts each year
What year did you start using a significant percentage of check valves or do you only use them on a small percentage of your taps?

[DrTimPerkins]

What year did you start using a significant percentage of check valves or do you only use them on a small percentage of your taps?

The mix of things we have done each year has changed over time. This year we probably had 75% of our taps on CV or CV2.

[spud]

Dr. Tim

What was your season average for sugar content? Had I had 2% average this year I would have come close to hitting .6 GPT. Last year my average was 1.7% and this year it dropped to 1.5% A lot of my trees are between 9-12 inches and I average 100 taps per acre. My low back would never allow me to thin my woods so a lot of my crowns will never grow real big. I think my soil is very good (but not sure) and the growth rate of my trees that I test are 1/2 inch per season. I feel the only thing I can do is tap early and shoot for 25+ gallons of sap per tap. I plan to add some more mainline and shorten some laterals for next season. I plan to tap first week of January next year and use all CV2s. It would be great to hit 30 GPT even if the sap test only 1.5%. Where can I bring soil samples for testing? How much does it cost? If lime could help me then I would somehow spread it around the woods. Thanks

Spud

[Thad Blaisdell]

Three major factors are important in achieving high yields:
1. Trees
- size, health, good growth rate, crown exposure, nutrition
2. Vacuum
- proper tubing layout, good tubing installation, wet/dry lines as necessary, low # taps/lateral line.
- vacuum pump capabilities and management (on all the time, or off/on depending on temperature)
- rapid leak detection and correction
3. Spout/drop sanitation
- new spouts every year and new drops every 2-4 yrs (depending on several factors), or
- new CV spouts each year


The next big factor is location. This year lower elevation seemed to be the ticket.

[spud]

Thad,

What did you get for sugar average this year. The elevation of my woods is only 600-700 feet. What is the elevation of your woods? I do know for a fact that had I tapped 2 weeks earlier I would have gotten about 3 GPT more of sap. My back was hurting so bad in January that I was afraid I might miss the whole season. I tapped the third week in January this year and my trees were still running on the 21st of April. By using the new CV2s next season I know I can tap January 1st and run all the way to the end of April if needed. I feel I need more early season sap to help bring my overall sugar content up for the season. My January sap was testing at 2.1% making light syrup but my April sap was only 1% making dark amber and some B grade. The early sap pay's .52 cents a gallon but the late season sap only pay's .27 cents. By using the CV2s I will now be able to get all the early sap and not loose any of the late season sap. I still hope to get 30 GPT of whatever sugar the trees want to give me.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

The next big factor is location. This year lower elevation seemed to be the ticket.

Yes, this year site was important. Colder bushes didn't do quite as well. I would actually include PMRC in this to some extent. A few degrees warmer on a couple of days and it would have been an amazingly good season.

[markcasper]

Dr. Tim, In regards to your comments about cold bushes: Over the long term, a cold bush will never perform as well as a warmer bush. Would that be a fair assumption? I mean practically every year we always receive those days where we are all saying "if it was just 5 degrees warmer.", on that side of the hill. The reason I bring this up is that I ran a new installation on a north bush this year and quite frankly, I was disappointed. With the location of this woods, I'm thinking it was a big waste of time and money because I can see every year being the same. And then when it does get going good, you get a good week and then its 70's for 3 or 4 days and its over.
On a side note....why do the buds and leaves all come out at exactly the same time whether warm or cold bush? I could never figure this out and this is a good time to ask.

[jrgagne99]

I tend to agree with Mark. It's been my observation that south facing slopes are much more prone to the large temperature swings that drive sap flow. North facing slopes are more tempered by the shade, and in general, don't tend to get the large temperature swings, even later in the season when the weather arrives.

[GeneralStark]

Obviously there are many factors that you can't control in regards to production. One of those is weather, and while you can control to some degree the nature of the woods you are tapping through selection, it seems that the point of this thread was intended to discuss the things a producer can control to get them to .5 gpt.

There are multiple threads on here regarding slope aspect and elevation, and there are many opinions on the matter and every year will be a bit different. For instance, here in the Champlain Valley, the valley producers did better than the high elevation producers, but that is in many ways atypical. But, I think the more important question here in this thread is what can a producer do to make .5gpt on average?

[red maples]

I know there were some big producers that made a bunch syrup in January as they were tapping. As far tapping dates at proctor when do you get tapped in do you watch the weather or do you just pick a date to start? with climates changing and temperature fluctuations and good sap weather happening from january straight through the season. There seem to be less and less extrended deep freezes of day time temps below 32* and with high vac as long as the tree itself isn't too frozen and you may get some sap especially in a warmer sunexposed section of trees. The longer season will add to the amount of syrup you make although tapping very early I would assume the sugar content would be much lower average throughout the season. It would be extra work to keep your membranes on your RO clean and free of any growth as well.

Anythoughts on this?

[spud]

[QUOTE=red maples;225714]I know there were some big producers that made a bunch syrup in January as they were tapping. As far tapping dates at proctor when do you get tapped in do you watch the weather or do you just pick a date to start? with climates changing and temperature fluctuations and good sap weather happening from january straight through the season. There seem to be less and less extrended deep freezes of day time temps below 32* and with high vac as long as the tree itself isn't too frozen and you may get some sap especially in a warmer sunexposed section of trees. The longer season will add to the amount of syrup you make although tapping very early I would assume the sugar content would be much lower average throughout the season. It would be extra work to keep your membranes on your RO clean and free of any growth as well.

Brad,

I was able to get my woods tapped the third week of January. I was hoping to start earlier but my back was hurting real bad. I shipped my first load of sap in January and it tested 2%. I was able to get 80,000 gallons of sap after that first run and all of it was above 2%. Although after I hit 80,000 gallons the sugar dropped and the best I could do was about 1.6-1.7% for the next few weeks. Once April came my sap went down to just 1% and stayed there for the rest of the season. What I found in January was my smaller trees (9-12 inches) would run very good when the sun came out and heated them up. Although the large trees needed more then just one day of sun to get them rolling (and that does not always happen). A small tree thaws much faster allowing me to get good sap runs from them during early season. A lot of people use the CV spouts to extend their season and give them a few more weeks in the end. Some people will say the sap is not worth keeping towards the end of the season. This is because of low sugar and poor quality syrup being made. My thought is by using the CV spout and tapping January 1st I can maximize the GPT and get more sugar early still allowing me to get sap into the end of April.

Spud

[Gary R]

What is "high yield production", gallons of syrup or sap per tap? I know many measure with syrup. I think it would be better to measure by sap. I think in sap production we have the most influence. My trees just don't have good sugar content. I believe the problem to be genetics and soils. I recently did a lime and fertilizer treatment. This would be very difficult and expensive for a large sugar bush. Last season was one of my better ones for sugar content. It still took me 72:1. For me I know I need to get rid of my sap ladders if I want better production. I don't know if I'll every do it because of the cost of a remote pump house for so few taps. I am definitely in the camp of better taps not more taps.

[spud]

What is "high yield production", gallons of syrup or sap per tap? I know many measure with syrup. I think it would be better to measure by sap. I think in sap production we have the most influence. My trees just don't have good sugar content. I believe the problem to be genetics and soils. I recently did a lime and fertilizer treatment. This would be very difficult and expensive for a large sugar bush. Last season was one of my better ones for sugar content. It still took me 72:1. For me I know I need to get rid of my sap ladders if I want better production. I don't know if I'll every do it because of the cost of a remote pump house for so few taps. I am definitely in the camp of better taps not more taps.

I tend to agree with you on the definition of (high yield production). For me it has to be sap because I sell my sap. Another reason is because my sugar is lower then a lot of other producer's. Dr. Tim has mentioned that thinning a woods can help bring sugar up because the crowns can grow. At this time I am unable to do any thinning in my woods. Like I have said in other post all I can do is try to extract as much sap per tap hole and may the sugar be whatever it is. For (me) high yield production would be getting 25+ GPT.

Spud

[red maples]

Well in my opinion yes the yeild per tap for sap is better, with modern technology(ro's) even with lower sugar you can ro to bring it up for cheaper, I don't mind darker syrup as long as it tastes good and my customers like it better as well. most people coming for syrup are looking for dark A and Gr B, and people that use it to sweeten say cofffee or tea they like the GR A light. and for those that like the less sugar also ask for the GR A Light...I know... I know... I tried to explain to them but they didn't get it!!!

[GeneralStark]

I tend to agree with you on the definition of (high yield production). For me it has to be sap because I sell my sap. Another reason is because my sugar is lower then a lot of other producer's. Dr. Tim has mentioned that thinning a woods can help bring sugar up because the crowns can grow. At this time I am unable to do any thinning in my woods. Like I have said in other post all I can do is try to extract as much sap per tap hole and may the sugar be whatever it is. For (me) high yield production would be getting 25+ GPT.

Spud

I suspect that tree vigor and health of the tree is a major factor in high yield production. It is #1 on Dr. Tim's list after all. Releasing your crop trees will do more than increase sugar content, it will also increase sap quantity as the tree will create more tissue faster which can in turn hold more sap.

Why not have a logger do some thinning in your woods and sell some firewood to make some extra cash from the land. It will also improve your ability to get those higher yields in the future. Win/win situation. I'm not telling you how to manage your woods, but it seems to me that this is a critical factor for long term high yield production.

I tend to be more in the "fewer taps but higher production" camp. One trend in the maple industry that does concern me is the focus on high yield production through vacuum and tubing systems (which I have no issue with) but without much discussion about tree vigor, health, and long term production. Sure, you can tube a woods and tap every maple with a leaf there is, but is that the most efficient or cost effective way to do it? Why not put some thought into how to better manage the woods for better production and better long term forest health?

[markcasper]

I tend to be more in the "fewer taps but higher production" camp. One trend in the maple industry that does concern me is the focus on high yield production through vacuum and tubing systems (which I have no issue with) but without much discussion about tree vigor, health, and long term production. Sure, you can tube a woods and tap every maple with a leaf there is, but is that the most efficient or cost effective way to do it? Why not put some thought into how to better manage the woods for better production and better long term forest health?

Spot on! Amen!

[spud]

GeneralStark,

What you are giving is very good advise. There are a few things to take into consideration though. Loggers do not always do a quality job in dropping and skidding trees out to a landing. Many of my maples that I would want to keep would or could be affected by poor logging practices. Another problem some may face (and I am one of them) is my set-up is fairly new so I have no intentions of taking it down so a logger can do his job. There also would be very little money made for me if a logger came to my land. My land was logged in 1991 and now has a lot of 9-12ish size trees. Organic is telling me 9 inch is minimum so that's what I do. PMRC taps down to 10 inch trees is what I have been told. I know I will never get the 2.5-3.0% sugar that some sugar maker's get and I am fine with that. Would I like to get that high sugar? oh yea but that would only happen (maybe) if I cut 1/4 of my woods down to give the other trees more space. I am not willing to do all that work so (maybe) my sugar content and my GPT will go up in the future? I'm almost 50 years old and I want to enjoy what I have for now. If someday my kids want to jump in and help out then maybe they could do some thinning themselves. For now getting 1.5-1.7% sugar average is ok for me. I just want 25+ GPT and I will be happy. If my back was better and I knew I would live to be 150 years old then I might do things different.:lol:

Spud

[Mark]

When a logger comes in all he is worried about is his bottom line.

[heus]

I too am hesitant to have someone log my woods. I have some beautiful 24-36" dbh cherries that I would be happy to sell. However, I fear that many of my sugars would be damaged in the skidding process, even with horses.

[TheMapleMoose]

We went to a sugarbush management seminar last week and one of the speakers was a state forester. He and several other foresters there made the point about releasing crop trees to increase tree health, crown size, and sugar %. It seemed like their suggestion was to thin to the S line, down to possibly 50-60 trees per acre depending on basal area.
I guess, being very novice in the sugarbush management area, that I can't see the benefit of cutting maples if we are trying to make maple syrup. If I've got 80 trees giving 25gpt @ 2%, am I better to thin to 60 trees? Will I really increase the production enough to compensate for the 20 taps I've lost? Am I missing the point completely :) ?

[bowhunter]

I'm also new to sugarbush management and I would have a problem cutting down producing trees. I've read two or three papers on sugarbush management to get some ideas for my little patch of woods. I'm trying to release the 4-8 inch trees right now and maybe take down a damaged maple here and there, but I don't have very many crop trees that are interfering at the canopy with each other and I think that's the important part. I've also started to release and cull some of the saplings, but I don't want to do too much at one time so the trees don't get shocked.

[Moser's Maple]

does stainless versus plastic main fittings play a role in this????????? i understand the theory of swtainless having a bigger id but is just a minimal upgrade, or a considerable advantage especially in wet/dry application

[spud]

We went to a sugarbush management seminar last week and one of the speakers was a state forester. He and several other foresters there made the point about releasing crop trees to increase tree health, crown size, and sugar %. It seemed like their suggestion was to thin to the S line, down to possibly 50-60 trees per acre depending on basal area.
I guess, being very novice in the sugarbush management area, that I can't see the benefit of cutting maples if we are trying to make maple syrup. If I've got 80 trees giving 25gpt @ 2%, am I better to thin to 60 trees? Will I really increase the production enough to compensate for the 20 taps I've lost? Am I missing the point completely :) ?

Another thing to consider is if you do cut 20 of your maples down to make room, whats to say some of those still standing trees won't die or blow down a year or two later? Then you're really going to feel dumb. I am going to let Mother Nature do my thinning for me. I don't think you're missing the point at all. I'm thinking the same way you are and really question if I would be better off thinning my woods or not. Would all this change really pay off for me in my lifetime?

Spud

[TRAILGUY]

there are more then one way to thin. I do crown thinning. I started thinning for a sugar bush in 78 then 90 them 2008 before I put up tubing. One tree I cut went from 21 year for 1" of rings to 7 years for 1" of rings. Released two side of the crown at a time and you can treat more then one tree as one tree by releasing the other 2 sides. The last cut I had many large oaks removed and ended up with an opening however it was where there was no good SM. If you need to thin large tree go to a site the logger did in the last two year and you will learn a lot. If the trees are less the 12 to 15 " find someone with a small tractor and a farmi winch I had my brother in law hall out 6 cord one day of 10 to15 " trees with very little damage. The best I have seen with larger trees and more area was dropped by machine cut to length and hall out with a forwarder and the trees left were great. You will see improvement in two years . Andy fast from the county asked if I would let him do a workshop on thinning at my wood lot this fall and I said yes so I hope for a hands on class be for I thin to go to vacuum and replace tubing. In a wet area I did have a few blow downs after cutting.

[maple flats]

In my own woods I thin (avg sugar 2.3%) but my 2 main sugarbushes are leased. I do not have permission to thin. In the first (avg 2.1% sugar) the land owner heats with wood and I have offered my help to work with him even offering my log winch and chainsaws. In the 5 yrs I've offered he still has not taken me up on that. I keep trying.
In the second and much larger bush (avg 1.9% sugar) the landowner also heats with wood, but he refuses to cut a live tree. As such I can't get any thinning done. I just need to concentrate on getting more sap.

[nymapleguy607]

Just a question for those that have made 1/2 gallon per tap, What vacuum levels do you maintain during the season? I got a good deal on a 15cfm high vacuum pump so I'm wondering where to keep the vacuum at to get the best production.

[GeneralStark]

Spud - It is true that having a logger work on your land is risky business. This is why it is critical to do your homework and find one that has a good reputation and has experience working in sugar woods and has the right equipment for the job. They are looking to make a living, but not all are just about the bottom line. That said, every woods is different so it may not make sense to have it thinned, or it may be essential. There are so many factors to consider that it is difficult to use one rule to apply to all situations. Once again, I am in no way trying to tell you how to manage your woods.

That said, in regards to the question of whether or not it makes sense to cut maple trees to make space for more maple trees, I would say that in most situations, especially in a pole stand, the answer would be yes. In the field of ecosystem management, there are often prescriptions that may not make intuitive sense, but the science supports it. Silvicultural practices are based on many years of research and science. There is no question that thinning increases tree vigor, crown size, growth rates and overall tree health. In a sugarbush, the wild crop we are attempting to harvest requires sunlight, nourishment, water and space to provide maximum production. Silvicultural practices attempt to meet that goal.

When examining a woods and considering its productivity for timber or sugar, it is easy to see that woods as a static system that in the present moment may provide just what you are looking for. That stand of maple trees 9-12" in diameter with over 100 taps/acre may seem like the ideal situation in the present moment, and it may be. But, in ten years as those trees run out of space to grow into (if they haven't already) they will become stunted and production will become more limited. You may still have over 100 taps/acre, but you may likely be producing less sap and sugar than if you had thinned down to 80 taps/acre 10 years ago. I know it seems counter intuitive to intentionally reduce the number of potential taps in your woods, but in most situations this will often yield higher production in the long term.

[spud]

Just a question for those that have made 1/2 gallon per tap, What vacuum levels do you maintain during the season? I got a good deal on a 15cfm high vacuum pump so I'm wondering where to keep the vacuum at to get the best production.

Jeff,

I run 27-28 inches of vacuum in my woods using a Kinney 10 HP two stage pump.

Spud

[spud]

GeneralStark,

I would agree with everything you are saying. Not all loggers do a poor job. I have read countless articles on Sugarbush management and I know that thinning a woods does help (over time). There are areas of my woods that have too many taps per acre for sure. I also know these tree will suffer for that over time. I think I am already seeing the starts of that now because I only averaged 1.5% sugar this year. I do have over 1500 taps from very large maple trees ranging from 30-40 inches. I have tested some of these trees and they range from 1.8-4.0% sugar. I know it's these big trees that are helping me get to 1.5-1.7% sugar average over the last two years. If not for the 1500 or so taps from my monster trees I think my sugar average would only be 1.0% or so. My wife and I need this sugaring money to pay the bills (this is not a hobby). Because of this we are unable to thin our woods and then wait several years to see the results. We have seven kids and the youngest will be 18 in 15 years from now. We need the money now just to feed the family and pay the bills. This is why we bought the neighbor's 60 acres also. Now we will be able to have another 2000-3000 taps for a total of 8500-9000 taps in all. With 9000 taps even if my sap averages 1.5 every year I still can make about $85,000 on an average season (selling sap). We are very happy with that amount and having a lot of fun doing it. I think it's safe to say that you are not making a living on your 400 taps. By having a woods your size this can be a lot of fun. It also gives you the ability to do proper thinning ( in a timely fashion and at little cost) so you can create the super sugar maple tree possibly. With that size woods I would lime every tree and read them a bedtime story:lol:. I am also in the process of fulfilling another crazy dream I have always had and that is planting an apple orchard. Some trees are already in and I plan to plant 750-1000 more in the next two years. My wife and kids all say I'm living the dream and I guess their right. The Lord's been good to us.

Spud

[spud]

GeneralStark,

I checked out your site and it is very nice. I find the mushroom planting to be very interesting. I have bought mushroom kits before and had a lot of fun with them but what you are doing is really cool. What is a pound of mushrooms sell for?

Spud

[markcasper]

We had our woods thinned a year ago this past December. My dad had it cut around 1982 before that. This was never a sugarbush until I arrived on the scene. We had a forester hired to mark the trees and it was mainly to get rid of alot of the weeds and garbage. They went in with a harvester and forwarder and I'll have to say i was very impressed with the job. I was quite pleased, it took alot of work and time to find the right logger.

The forester we could have did without as I ended up wanting more stuff taken out. He only had 250 b.f. of maple coming out, (not including pulpwood) and by the time I got done with my marking they took out 2500 b.f. of maple. This was on about 25 acres. A fair amount of oak got taken as it was mature and they hit the ash pretty hard with what is on the horizon.

The damage from this job was very minimal. There were a few small areas where we just left it because to go in there would have been a hazard to them and they would have had a hard time getting it out.

I started putting tubing up this past winter, but never got that tapped. I did throw 300 plus bags up in this part and the sap for the season averaged 3.4%. I still look at things and kind of wished there was a little more taken, BUT this woods has a history of getting bad wind and I have to tell myself there was enough taken for this time. The next time its scheduled to be cut is 2024 and they said it would be more of a sawlog harvest which kind of scares me. So, I know where your sitting, Spud. If you have a alot of pulp sized trees and small sawlogs, and their overcrowded though, a thinning would benefit you greatly in my opinion.

[spud]

Thanks for the advise Mark. How much did it cost to have the logger come to your place and do this work? How much money did you make ( after all expenses) when the job was done?

Spud

[markcasper]

Spud, We, or I should say I got my folks to put this woods in the MFL program back in 2000. Since the taxes were outrageous and the dumb lawmakers in Madison forgot to include maple syrup in the "use value" ag tax program. A few years later they did incorporate all woodland thats adjacent to an active farm, such as ours, under ag woodland. If I would have known that, I would not have gotten it enrolled.

The woods was suppossed to be cut in 2008, but because of the timber market crashing, no one became interested until the fall of 2011. We never got any bids until that time, and even then, this particular logger was the only one and because of the program rules, we had to take it. We spent $2500 hiring the forester and the DNR got another $5-600 for yield tax. The total sale was around $5,500 so that was a joke. Nonetheless, I was most concerned about what it was going to look like afterwards. As I mentioned....I was quite pleased as most neighboring woodlands have been high-graded, scalped, and then 1/2 the remaining timber gets damaged beyond reason. One consideration was that the logger had to be on the "approved" list from the DNR, or they would not be able to cut. These guys were on the list obviously. I was also out in the woods overseeing things practically everyday. They knew I was watching, but they also knew my objectives and what I wanted. After the first three or four days of harvesting I became quite confident in their work. The son was running the harvester mostly and I was just in awe seeing how methodically and perfectly he was dropping trees without touching the others, even on the steep slopes. I would stand back and tell myself there is noway in heck I could ever do a better job.

The forester really could have marked more and I did end up having more taken out. He really was probably just looking out for my interests, being careful not to take too many maples. The forester did mark this in 2008 however and over the course of the few years we waited, I kind of had a mind change as to what a good bush should be. I have more trees than I can handle though, so that probably puts me in a different position than you. Plus, You wouldn't want to do this unless your going to be replacing tubing. I wouldn't prematurely disassemble the tubing early just for the sake of getting it thinned. As others have said, pole sized stands are usually way overstocked anyway. As I mentioned before, the logger told me that 12-15 years from now, it would be mostly a sawlog harvest, but really there wouldn't be near as many stems taken, the ones they would take would just be bigger.

The number one thing is to be firm and solid with any logger that you get. We did have a contract with them per the dnr rules. I basically told them on the first day I met them that if I didn't like what i saw, I would shut them down. They were getting the wood for a song, the tradeoff was to leave the woods in top-notch shape and they did. I gave them a case of syrup at the end of the harvest because I appreciated their efforts.

[spud]

Thanks Mark and GeneralStark. This information has helped me out a lot. This is what makes Trader so great. Have a great weekend.

Spud

[Mark]

Thanks for the advise Mark. How much did it cost to have the logger come to your place and do this work? How much money did you make ( after all expenses) when the job was done?

Spud

The logger and I took a walk and looked the 300 acres. I explained what I wanted done and he said he was not interested unless he could cut what he wants. He said he hated logging marked trees and his feller buncher goes best in straight lines. If there is a nice maple in his path he would take it. Another logger just kept telling me I was nuts to drill holes in the trees and I would regret it later. In the past I worked for a logger for a few years and know how it works in our area, the land owner gets the short end of the stick.

What I did was purchase an old Gafner Iron Mule prehauler and over the course of three or four years I thinned it my self and removed about 200 to 250 semi loads of wood. I would rather work hard at taking out the pulp trees to make money and leave the nice maples rather than high grading it. There was also a bunch of yellow birch and cherry veneer. The only thing I would do different next time is take a log grading class first. Probably got taken a little on the veneer but without a logger I did much better anyway. It paid for the prehauler, 300 acres of property, the tubing for the first 12,000 taps, and an income while doing it.

[PerryFamily]

Mark- I have had the " drilling holes in veneer" conversation a few times. It seems to me that loggers think every tree is veneer. I feel the reality is only a small percentage are veneer, most being saw logs, firewood or pulp.

This is my thinking on a vacuum bush, if you could average .5 gpt ( high end but defiantly possible ) ,over the course of the trees life time it is worth way more tapping it than the quick buck cutting it. At $25/ half gallon, in 50 yrs that one tree made you $1250.00.

On the flip side, if you leased your trees for $.50-$1.00 a tap, it would take quite a few years to get that $1250!!

I also agree, it seems the landowner tends to get the short end of the log.

[TRAILGUY]

before I started maple I had a logger thinning so took down a few of the best maple. At the time was $2500 a 1000 bdft for veneer and we both thought it was. the mill thought other wise and paid around $400 so didnot cut any more and started taping.

[Mark]

before I started maple I had a logger thinning so took down a few of the best maple. At the time was $2500 a 1000 bdft for veneer and we both thought it was. the mill thought other wise and paid around $400 so didnot cut any more and started taping.
They look much more impressive standing compared to laying on the ground at the sawmill. I was getting about $1100 a load for pulp so it was not too hard to make money taking out the junk wood and keeping the nice maple. If a logger was doing it I would have gotten only about $150 a load for the pulp.
If a logger starts giving the usual line I tell him the birds eye trees run just as good as the rest of them.

[spud]

I hope you did not cut too many nice maples down. That's a big difference in dollar amount. So even if I find an honest logger then we have to make sure the mill is being honest also. Is there a way of having a price quoted to you before the cutting begins? It seems to me you would want someone from the mill coming to your site and marking the Veneer logs before they are cut. Is this even possible? I think the land owner should be making the most money but I know it does not work that way.

Spud

[wiam]

Spud, the logger and mill can give you good/fair numbers BUT nobody knows what inside of tree looks like until it is too late to tap it

[spud]

So when do you get your money then? Do you wait until the mill has sawed all your logs? If so how long does that take? I see mills with piles of logs that have been there for a while. Their running sprinkler's on those logs. I always thought the tree owner got his money right when the logs got to the mill.

Spud

[PerryFamily]

I think most reputable mills settle weekly. Most loads are scaled within hours. Many will take out the trucking and pay the trucker direct. That is where it seems that the quality of the log is really up to interpretation. What looks like veneer to a logger, is a scaled as a saw log at the mill which is paid as firewood or pulp to the landowner. I am sure most are scaled fairly but it makes me wonder. I think the big key is being around to know exactly what is leaving your land and asking for scale slips on every load.

I did some work for a logging / chipping crew down my way this winter. They were thinning a sugarbush in Springfield, VT. The crew was 100% mechanized. The trees were cut with a timbco feller-buncher, which cuts and picks up the entire tree, minimizing damage to surrounding trees. Grapple skidders pulled the hitches to the landing. At the landing, saw logs were cut out first, then pulp wood, after that everything went into the chipper. When they were done the woods were pretty clean since the tops and all were dragged out. They did a great job maximizing the value of the wood.

FYI- really cool to see an entire tree, 22" at the butt sizzle through that chipper.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I cut all my own and sell at roadside. I am present when the scaler comes and if I am not satisfied with his scale or grade, the log does not go. I buck up most of the logs but if I am unsure of what will make the best logs I wait and do the final cut when the scaler is present. They are glad to give good advise as they want the best logs possible. After the logs are scaled, I am issued a check, right there beside the road. Sometimes the logs go that day and sometimes it is a week or 2 later. I also have my own mill and burn wood as well as sell100+ cords a year so there are alternatives if I am not satisfied. I also sell some logs to an Amish neighbor strictly on a yield/quality basis. I get paid for exactly what is cut out of the log. Since most scales underestimate the bd. feet in a log, this is often beneficial to me. It is amazing how much top grade lumber can be made from a number 2 sawlog by a good sawyer,