Ro membranes

[ldick]

In looking at RO machines I find a lot of different membranes mentioned. Is there anywhere I can find a comparison of or pros/cons of the different makes and types?

[brookledge]

Check out Atlantic ro membranes
http://atlanticro.com/1.FilmTecMapleSheet.pdf
Joe has good prices. look over his website. This is where I get mine
Keith

[rchase]

two of my friends switched to these membranes this year and couldn't believe how much more they got out of there ro's. http://www.mapleexperts.com/ . The website should be complete soon from what I hear.

[Mark]

I have tried several different membranes and like the XLE440 the best. They are also cheap through Joe at Atlantic RO.

[rapovt]

I had a chance to test these membranes this year. I have them in a CDL 3 post, 7.5hp high pressure pump machine. I started out the season with my 1 year old H2o membranes to get a benchmark. I made 400 gallons with the H2O and 2900 gallons with the MES membranes. They asked me to beat the h*ll out of them, don't soap em, quick rinses, don't treat them good. I did work them hard. I rinsed them every night and I think I went 9 days without a soap wash. I usually ro my sap in 2 steps, 2.0 to 10% and 10 to 20-22%. This gives me maximum removal of permeate per hour. The first pass takes out most of the water at a high rate and the second passes pushes it up to 20-22% at a lower rate. The MES membranes out flowed the H2O by 10-20% and held their flow rates longer than the H2O(at 2-10). I have tried running my H2O membranes from 2-20% and they don't like it at all. The MES membranes will do it pretty well, but the flow rates are less than when doing 2-10%. When I went from 10-20 with my H2O and switched back to 2-10, I would have to rinse for 15-20 minutes to get the flows back up. With the MES I rinse for about 5 minutes with sap and they come right back.

I bought my first Ro in 1986. I have tried all the membranes over the years. I liked the H2O the best until I got the MES membranes. I am sold on the MES membranes and would highly recommend them.

[Mark]

I had a chance to test these membranes this year. I have them in a CDL 3 post, 7.5hp high pressure pump machine. I started out the season with my 1 year old H2o membranes to get a benchmark. I made 400 gallons with the H2O and 2900 gallons with the MES membranes. They asked me to beat the h*ll out of them, don't soap em, quick rinses, don't treat them good. I did work them hard. I rinsed them every night and I think I went 9 days without a soap wash. I usually ro my sap in 2 steps, 2.0 to 10% and 10 to 20-22%. This gives me maximum removal of permeate per hour. The first pass takes out most of the water at a high rate and the second passes pushes it up to 20-22% at a lower rate. The MES membranes out flowed the H2O by 10-20% and held their flow rates longer than the H2O(at 2-10). I have tried running my H2O membranes from 2-20% and they don't like it at all. The MES membranes will do it pretty well, but the flow rates are less than when doing 2-10%. When I went from 10-20 with my H2O and switched back to 2-10, I would have to rinse for 15-20 minutes to get the flows back up. With the MES I rinse for about 5 minutes with sap and they come right back.

I bought my first Ro in 1986. I have tried all the membranes over the years. I liked the H2O the best until I got the MES membranes. I am sold on the MES membranes and would highly recommend them.

How much $? Doe they make their own or are they re-branded?

[claytski]

Mark,

I co-own and operate Maple Expert Solutions, MES as it has become, and I was told about the talk of our membranes so I wanted to get on Maple Trader and answer your questions.

The membrane expected price will be $800 + approximately $25 in shipping (actual shipping costs will be billed) until July 1st. After July 1st $875 + the same shipping details. Pickup is available. The membranes are our own in house technology. The trial membranes were produced by a major membrane manufacturer with our licensed patented technology. This major membrane manufacturer will produce further orders for us, thus giving a quality end product. Due to the fact that we must produce runs of our membrane, this is why we will be pre-ordering starting May 27th and is anticipated to end Aug 2nd. To keep the costs low we are not holding inventory and those that miss the pre-order will not have a chance to get their hands on these membranes for this up coming season.

Commenting on the testing of the membranes by rapovt: We wanted to give these membranes the absolute worst time. We wanted to see what the membranes would do under the absolute worst conditions, pushed to limits of washing, rinsing, and concentrating. We do not advocate treating a membrane like this normally, but from the test results, the membrane can handle the abuse. It is often hard to project performance in subsequent years of operation. By pushing the membranes harder than normal, we were working on projecting flows and performance of years to come.

Much much more detail and information will be loaded onto our website: www.mapleexperts.com and will be going live May 27th. We will have comparable analysis, washing instructions, membrane specifications, etc. It is a pleasure to introduce this membrane and we hope all will enjoy.

[Mark]

What is the patent number? I would like to read it.

[claytski]

Thank you for the question. All relevant information will be posted on our website when it is launched. Thank you.

[batsofbedlam]

I spent an hour talking to two young women from Dow Chemical at the Lapierre open house in Swanton two weeks ago. They stated that the best membrane now available is the Filmtec Mark E8. The Filmtec Mark 1 exhibits excellent sugar concentration, but also high energy cost. The Mark E4 is a step above the Mark E1, but the Mark E8 has maximum sugar concentration and low energy cost.
I know that Leader's Springtech RO's now all have either the Mark E4 or the Mark E8. They have stopped using the Hydranautics PVD membrane. The Mark E8 allows high concentration without passing any sugar. All the others either pass a lot of sugar at concentrations above 8% or have very high energy costs.

[MillbrookMaple]

I spent an hour talking to two young women from Dow Chemical at the Lapierre open house in Swanton two weeks ago. They stated that the best membrane now available is the Filmtec Mark E8. The Filmtec Mark 1 exhibits excellent sugar concentration, but also high energy cost. The Mark E4 is a step above the Mark E1, but the Mark E8 has maximum sugar concentration and low energy cost.
I know that Leader's Springtech RO's now all have either the Mark E4 or the Mark E8. They have stopped using the Hydranautics PVD membrane. The Mark E8 allows high concentration without passing any sugar. All the others either pass a lot of sugar at concentrations above 8% or have very high energy costs.

I wanted say I agree with this statement. We switched from a Mark I this season to an Mark E8 and the performance was much higher. I am interested in the other company but I would like to know if anyone has done an independent study of their new membrane at high concentration in relation to sugar and mineral retention.

[rchase]

maybe I am wrong but isn't a E8 just a xle-440 with a smaller end plug? You just don't have to convert to the bigger end plug that are on the xle-440.

[Mark]

The Mark 1 is probably the same technology as a NF90 and the Mark E8 is close to an XLE 440, that is what I would guess. Yes just the inner tube size is different.

[batsofbedlam]

The Dow people told me that the Mark E8 has twice the number of folds that other membrane have, thus allowing higher concentrations without a drop in performance. I don't know if they were copying old technology.

[Mark]

Does the XLE-440 have twice the folds as the NF-90? Could that be why they are low energy?

[sapman]

maybe I am wrong but isn't a E8 just a xle-440 with a smaller end plug? You just don't have to convert to the bigger end plug that are on the xle-440.

I've heard that the E8 and XLE are the same membrane, but the E8 has a larger diameter permeate tube. Is that correct, or backwards?

I found it interesting that Joe couldn't sell the PVD1 for several years, then once he was able to again, Leader's membrane of choice changed to the E8, which Joe cannot sell.

[maplwrks]

Just the opposite---XLEs' have a large inside tube

[doocat]

What would be the purpose of the smaller diameter center tube on the E8?

Craig

[maplwrks]

That's a question I can't answer. I know that when I bought my new E8 this yr, I had a choice of that membrane, or a Mark 1. I sure am glad that I got the E8. I will order a second one this fall for my other tower.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

Can a PVD 1 membrane be replaced in an airblo ro with an E8 without making any modifications? Are there any adapters needed?

[TheMapleMoose]

With our springtech machine we don't need to send the membranes away for factory cleaning, would this be the case with the MES membranes?

[claytski]

Great question. When membranes are properly cleaned in the sugarhouse they do not need to be sent off for factory cleaning. Often times producers send their membranes off to be factory or professionally cleaned as a convenience. This gives the producer the reassurance that the membrane has been cleaned, which brings the membrane back to respectable flow rates, and the membrane is not passing sugars. This reassurance costs about $150 which adds up over the life of a membrane. When a membrane comes back from being cleaned there will be a printout that accompanies the membrane specifying flow rates and retention. This can easily be done in the sugarhouse by using a refractometer and a flow meter. Some RO skids are not designed to measure individual flows, but those that are are a much easier to measure flow rates. In a professional cleaning environment the membranes are cycled from a caustic to a acidic wash, rinsed properly, measure permeate flow rates, and with a conductivity meter can measure retention. Some cleaning facilities use a special dye that will instantly show retention instead of a conductivity meter.

So that was the long winded answer. The short is no, you would not need to send the membranes for factory cleaning as it already sounds like you have a good handle on your cleaning practices. Additionally, except for slight pH differences, which will depend on what model you currently use, the MES membranes can be treated exactly like any other true RO membrane on the market.

[claytski]

Letting all of you folks know that our website is up and running. http://www.mapleexperts.com. We are now in a position to take pre-ordering and deposits on the MES membrane. You will shortly see our advertisement in the Maple News along with a story on our RO.

Regarding Pricing: We have decided to offer the MES membrane at an introductory low price of $800 from now until July 1st. After this the membrane will be $875.

Best Regards,

[rchase]

Letting all of you folks know that our website is up and running. http://www.mapleexperts.com. We are now in a position to take pre-ordering and deposits on the MES membrane. You will shortly see our advertisement in the Maple News along with a story on our RO.

Regarding Pricing: We have decided to offer the MES membrane at an introductory low price of $800 from now until July 1st. After this the membrane will be $875.

Best Regards,
Nice website. Thanks for the heads up.