Apparently not a zero tank!

[madmapler]

I drove past this tank earlier in the season and if I remember right, the guage was around 20 hgs. Drove by today and this is what I saw. Crazy!7847

[mapleack]

zeros are only rated for 20" max, I'd say the regulator failed.

[TunbridgeDave]

That's why I prefer a releaser! I think the big brewery tanks are the only good vacuum tanks.

[maple flats]

Yes, regulators fail, that is why I have 3 on mine. A vacuum style Zero tank (not all are designed for vacuum) is tested at 20". Damage or corrosion can weaken the tank too. Tested at 20" does not mean it will implode at 21" but one tank may fail at 21 while another may not until 24". At any rate, it sure turns a nice SS tank into a messy lump of scrap in an instant. My plans are to put a releaser on mine in a couple of years and go to higher vacuum but now I have it set at 19" and hope not more than 1 controller fails, because I need 2 to get the volume of relief. My controllers are only 3/4" and on a good tight system they are sopposed to protect about 15 cfm, my pump there is 30 cfm.

[madmapler]

I was thinking that this tank was'nt actually a zero tank. It was obviously on a truck and its really old. I'm guessing 60s vintage. They built things a lot more rugged back then. Its been at that location for a number of years although I dont know how long its been on vacuum.

[maple flats]

It was on vacuum too long! ouch!!!

[500592]

Ah heck just put the air compressor to it it will come right out lol

[BreezyHill]

That's an old tandem truck tank for on farm pickup of milk. Not designed for vacuum, just transportation of milk to a milk plant. Lids open to fill and empty only. Saw a molasses tanker like that after the valve on the bottom broke off. molasses is 12#/gal and sucked the tank nearly flat as it leaked out. Good scrap find.

[BAP]

That is and old transport milk tank that has had the out skin and insulation taken off. They work great for a sap hauling tank, but not vacuum. Vacuum tanks like the Zero, old Mueller or some of the old glass lined tanks used in food plants work great. They provide much better vacuum in your lot because of the large reserve of the tank acting as a balance tank. As long as you have a good, solid tank and a vacuum regulator, they work much better than any releaser ever built. They are virtually trouble free. Also, as far as the 20" +/- hg vacuum level, I think most producers are kidding themselves to think they actually pulling higher than that out in their lots. You would have to work 24/7 to keep leaks fixed to maintain high levels of vacuum without resorting to ridiculously oversized vacuum pumps.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Actually if you are using a tank like that for vacuum you are losing money. The difference between 20 and 27 inches is way to huge to even think about using anything like a zero tank. But to those who do thank you and keep it up, I don't have to worry about you flooding the market.

[AdirondackSap]

Thad you sound like a douch bag. Every post you sound like you know everything there is to know about sugaring, thats cool if you do but you sound like a stuck up douch. Not everyone has a billion dollars like you do.

[BreezyHill]

The key is a regulator. I have had ours run for several years with out a regulator with no issues. They do a good job providing a more even vacuum on the mains than a mechanical releaser. An electrical releaser on the other hand will maintain the same constant vacuum as a zero. The balance tank is a big advantage from a technical stand point, due to consistence of vacuum to the mains 100% of the time. The use of over sized pumps or multiply pumps to draw down a zero is really not needed. On a 20 cfm pump for a 500 gallon tank is under 4 minutes, and just over 2 for a 30 cfm pump. Yes a 100 cfm pump would do it in under 1 minute but if you don't need that volume for your tap count why waste the elec.
I don't recommend that any body run a zero style the way I did. My dad was a surge dealer and know the equipment and the risks.

Please explain the comment of losing money when using this style of releaser.

Adsap...lol

[unc23win]

Obviously some people are fans of Zero tanks. Zeros are just not popular anymore from what I know at least 2 reasons 1 is they a hard to find and 2 they usually are small. A releaser can be set up to dump into any size tank. Many producers are moving to the open style tanks as used bulk tanks of larger volumes are also hard to find.

Pulling 20+ does not require checking lines 24/7 it does however require tight lines when setting up lines but everyone should strive to have tight lines. Producers who use guages and valves can find leaks among thousands of taps within in minutes.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Please explain the comment of losing money when using this style of releaser.

Adsap...lol


It has been proven that the higher the vacuum the more sap you will make. The numbers given are 5% per inch of vacuum. So the difference between 20 and 27 would be 35% more sap. Now lets take a 1000 tap woods. Personally the number I shoot for is 1/2 gpt, 500 gallons of syrup. In wholesale terms that will be $16000. You will lose just over a third call it $5400. A new vacuum pump for that woods is around $3000, relaser, electric or manual, for less than $1500. So now you have $4500 into it. That is still a $900 profit the first year. You will still own the equipment for many years. Even a smaller woods if it takes 2 years to pay for it is still more profit. So if you are using the old dairy pumps and/or a zero tank you are still losing money.



And now to address AdirondackSap. If some of you guys would take the time to go to the classes that are offered for sugarmakers, and listen to what is said, and then implement what you learn in the woods you too could know a little more about sugaring. But I guess all you have time for is looking up big words to call someone else.

[BAP]

Thad, do you actually make syrup, or just belittle others? Nothing is stated in your profile like most everybody else has listed on this site. If so how many trees do you tap and do you yourself actually make money off it? Having all the latest, and greatest, and most expensive equipment does not necessarily mean you are making money. There is a little thing called "diminishing marginal returns on your investment". You can throw all the money you want at it, but that doesn't mean it is the best thing to do. You throw out incomplete numbers that sound good, but don't have all the costs in them. Somebody who has smaller investment in equipment with used, could actually be making more "PROFIT" than your "CADILLAC" equipment even with slightly less yield. In a poor sugar season, everybody takes a hit financially, but the guy who hasn't invested everything including the shirt on his back, will be the one that survives to make syrup the nest year.

[mapleack]

Thads production numbers are right, provided you've got a top notch tubing system to go along with the high vac. He's also spot on with the comment about classes. You guys in New York / Vermont have tremendous educational/ research resources available, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM! New technology and methods can make you a ton more syrup and make your trees more healthy! If you're not running high vac you're leaving too much money in the woods. Why not make 30% more syrup with the same number of taps and same amount of time?? A zero tank might be fine for a small hobbyist, but if you're trying to actually profit from syrup, don't even consider them.

[unc23win]

BAP most big producers on here do not put anything about their operation in their profile or anywhere. There is plenty of research to back Thad up. Most larger producers know all about how to make as much profit as possible. .4-.6 GPT is very reachable.

I don't think anyone said that used equipment was bad. Obviously yes if you can get by on used equipment there is more profit initially. When it comes to high vacuum there is more profit and it is hard to achieve high vacuum with a zero tank let alone deal with the large volume of sap the high vacuum will generate. Does it make sense to try for high vacuum for 200 or 300 taps?

Use Thad's numbers for 300 taps Pump $3000 single releaser $900 = $3900 extra 150 gallons bulk @ $30 = $4500 first year profit $600 now maybe for year one you get a used pump and make more.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Thad, do you actually make syrup, or just belittle others? Nothing is stated in your profile like most everybody else has listed on this site. If so how many trees do you tap and do you yourself actually make money off it? Having all the latest, and greatest, and most expensive equipment does not necessarily mean you are making money. There is a little thing called "diminishing marginal returns on your investment". You can throw all the money you want at it, but that doesn't mean it is the best thing to do. You throw out incomplete numbers that sound good, but don't have all the costs in them. Somebody who has smaller investment in equipment with used, could actually be making more "PROFIT" than your "CADILLAC" equipment even with slightly less yield. In a poor sugar season, everybody takes a hit financially, but the guy who hasn't invested everything including the shirt on his back, will be the one that survives to make syrup the nest year.

Yes BAP I do make syrup, and quite a bit of it to answer your first question. As far as belittling goes, I believe the person using a zero tank and antique practices are really belittling themselves. If you already have the power to run the old dairy pump then you have the ability to run a newer high vacuum pump. If you already have a tank then you are all set and ready to go. It doesn't have to be the most expensive pump ever, I bought an airtech pump straight from the manufacturer last season at tremendous savings. Now as far as diminished returns, not really sure that would apply if the extra profit pays for itself in a year (or 2 if you have a bad year). Incomplete numbers? I guess I don't exactly understand that statement, I am more than willing to clarify that but my numbers are pretty straight forward. In my scenario you would make an extra $900 pluss pay for the equipment in a good year. Now in a bad year, I still don't believe you would come up short because running the same pump you are going to make more syrup. 4 years ago when it only froze 2 nights in the month of March, anyone running less than 22 inches of vacuum made almost no syrup, with 27 inches I had a very good year. If you have 500 taps or more and are not running high vacuum you are losing money that is plain and simple truth. There is no argument about it. Now on the other hand..... if you are currently happy with your production and do not want to make any more syrup(money) then by all means stay with the old system, sit back and relax and do the same as you have always done.

But listen close to this, as the writing is on the wall. Syrup will not always stay at this level of value, there will come a time in the not to distant future that the price is going to drop, and I believe it will drop a lot. If you don't believe this then look around at all the expansion. In Addison county there is a single expansion of 80,000 taps this year, to be expanded to 180,000 taps for next year. That is just one expansion, that will generate 90,000 gallons of syrup. That is going to hit the market. Every year. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that this is not the only expansion going on, and every year there will be more and more. Supply and demand will eventually catch up and the supply will out weigh the demand. Prices will fall. Then that 1000 tap bush wont be worth bothering with anyway. So make your money now.

I currently have a little over 10,000 taps, which I am able to run and maintain by myself, no help required. And quite easily I might add.

[wiam]

Thad, do you actually make syrup, or just belittle others? Nothing is stated in your profile like most everybody else has listed on this site. If so how many trees do you tap and do you yourself actually make money off it? Having all the latest, and greatest, and most expensive equipment does not necessarily mean you are making money. There is a little thing called "diminishing marginal returns on your investment". You can throw all the money you want at it, but that doesn't mean it is the best thing to do. You throw out incomplete numbers that sound good, but don't have all the costs in them. Somebody who has smaller investment in equipment with used, could actually be making more "PROFIT" than your "CADILLAC" equipment even with slightly less yield. In a poor sugar season, everybody takes a hit financially, but the guy who hasn't invested everything including the shirt on his back, will be the one that survives to make syrup the nest year.

This is coming from a guy who made a pretty rash statement about kidding yourself about more than 20 inches. Really?

[DrTimPerkins]

It has been proven that the higher the vacuum the more sap you will make. The numbers given are 5% per inch of vacuum.

Thad is correct, and maybe a little on the low side. The increase in sap yield is approximately 5-7% per inch of vacuum (that is vacuum at the tap, not vacuum at the pump). Thus the increase in sap yield going from 20" to 27" vacuum in the woods (which is achievable with a well-installed and well-maintained system) is approximately 35-49%.

Not everyone is willing to go to the level of effort and expense to achieve this. To each his/her own.

[GeneralStark]

Yes BAP I do make syrup, and quite a bit of it to answer your first question. As far as belittling goes, I believe the person using a zero tank and antique practices are really belittling themselves. If you already have the power to run the old dairy pump then you have the ability to run a newer high vacuum pump. If you already have a tank then you are all set and ready to go. It doesn't have to be the most expensive pump ever, I bought an airtech pump straight from the manufacturer last season at tremendous savings. Now as far as diminished returns, not really sure that would apply if the extra profit pays for itself in a year (or 2 if you have a bad year). Incomplete numbers? I guess I don't exactly understand that statement, I am more than willing to clarify that but my numbers are pretty straight forward. In my scenario you would make an extra $900 pluss pay for the equipment in a good year. Now in a bad year, I still don't believe you would come up short because running the same pump you are going to make more syrup. 4 years ago when it only froze 2 nights in the month of March, anyone running less than 22 inches of vacuum made almost no syrup, with 27 inches I had a very good year. If you have 500 taps or more and are not running high vacuum you are losing money that is plain and simple truth. There is no argument about it. Now on the other hand..... if you are currently happy with your production and do not want to make any more syrup(money) then by all means stay with the old system, sit back and relax and do the same as you have always done.

But listen close to this, as the writing is on the wall. Syrup will not always stay at this level of value, there will come a time in the not to distant future that the price is going to drop, and I believe it will drop a lot. If you don't believe this then look around at all the expansion. In Addison county there is a single expansion of 80,000 taps this year, to be expanded to 180,000 taps for next year. That is just one expansion, that will generate 90,000 gallons of syrup. That is going to hit the market. Every year. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that this is not the only expansion going on, and every year there will be more and more. Supply and demand will eventually catch up and the supply will out weigh the demand. Prices will fall. Then that 1000 tap bush wont be worth bothering with anyway. So make your money now.

I currently have a little over 10,000 taps, which I am able to run and maintain by myself, no help required. And quite easily I might add.

Not to be a douche, but I think the operation your are referring to is in Rutland County and I too share your concerns about the market being flooded with mediocre bulk syrup from these large scale operations being run by folks who want to be the biggest and have deep pockets to draw from but aren't necessarily "sugarmakers". If I were a bulk producer I would be quite concerned about syrup prices in the next 5-10 years. 80% of VT syrup is produced and sold bulk, so if the amount of syrup being produced continues to increase, that bulk price could drop if demand does not continue to rise. That is the big question, "will demand increase"?

Anyway, in regards to vacuum equipment, I used to find myself in the go cheap and use used equipment and scrape by camp, but since I have started really trying to develop the business into something that will generate some decent income, I have quickly found myself shifting into the do it right and spend some money to make some money camp. Everyone's goals and business plans are different, so there is no "right way" for everyone, but if we are talking scientific facts, good quality equipment and high vacuum will make you more money in the short and long term.

[BAP]

Do you guys actually have guages out in the woods to measure vacuum? or are they right next to the pump? The point being, a lot of people can have supper vacuum right next to the pump but virtually none out in the wood were it counts. As far as price dropping due to flooding the market, thats going to happen if production out paces demand and then your profit is going to drop. I am not sure why some people are afraid to post what they tap and what they use for equipment on this forum. Is it because they are ashamed that they use some of the methods that they talk against? This is supposed to be a way for people to share ideas and their thoughts with each other. If you don't give your own information, it is hard to believe that you actually know what you are talking about, and not some windbag.

[DrTimPerkins]

You guys in New York / Vermont have tremendous educational/ research resources available, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM! New technology and methods can make you a ton more syrup and make your trees more healthy!

Along with syrup, we export plenty of information from the northeast too. Our folks from UVM PMRC and UVM Maple Extension and our colleagues in other institutions, along with regulators, producers, dealers, packers and distributors are constantly doing presentations and workshops. We all travel fairly regularly to do classes and meetings, and are happy to tell folks what we know. What it really takes is a receptive audience.

[GeneralStark]

Do you guys actually have guages out in the woods to measure vacuum? or are they right next to the pump? The point being, a lot of people can have supper vacuum right next to the pump but virtually none out in the wood were it counts. As far as price dropping due to flooding the market, thats going to happen if production out paces demand and then your profit is going to drop. I am not sure why some people are afraid to post what they tap and what they use for equipment on this forum. Is it because they are ashamed that they use some of the methods that they talk against? This is supposed to be a way for people to share ideas and their thoughts with each other. If you don't give your own information, it is hard to believe that you actually know what you are talking about, and not some windbag.

Yes, anyone who has any clue as what they are doing uses vac. gauges in the woods to insure that their vacuum levels are what they are shooting for. My current system can achieve 28" at the releaser and 28" at the tap hole. I know this by measuring with a vac. gauge.

You are correct however that many assume that the vacuum level they achieve at the releaser or pump is the same as what will be found at the taphole. There is a big difference between playing around with maple sugaring and taking it seriously.

[unc23win]

BAP are you under a rock? High vacuum producers have gauges EVERYWHERE!

If you had been on the site sooner you would know that Thad is not a windbag he has a pretty good sized operation as he told you and he has offered a lot of helpful advice in the past. I don't personally know him but from reading his posts in the past I know he is all about MAXIMUM profit. As you saw Dr. Perkins chimed in and said Thad was correct maybe even a little low in figures. Maybe you should check out the PMRC website and see for yourself. http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/

Although as Dr. Perkins said you have to be RECEPTIVE well said Doc.

[BreezyHill]

Sees Fire! Wow...this thread got a little heated.

I hope that everyone can realize it is not what you say it is how you say it. Remember we all are in the same industry. It is a producers own choice as to how he wants to conduct his business and it is not very mature to criticize a fellow producer for the manner in which he conducts.

To often people get stuck in a rut and are unwilling to try new things; but if it works what is the harm if they are satisfied.

Having run vacuum from the mid 1970s there is a lot yet to learn. That is why studies are done.

Besides who is the wiser the producer that jumps on the band wagon and tries new tech as it comes out or the one that waits for it to be perfected?

Take a look at CDLs new fittings; cost of plastic and nearly the same orfice as stainless. The producer that is saving nearly 90% on the cost of fittings at a whip, with nearly all the benefits of SS looks like a genius with $65 in his pocket for every connection site of a lat to a w/d.

But...

Does that make the guy that has been using ss foolish...I say no, nor is the guy that goes out and upgrades with the latest and greatest, without dipping into the school tax piggy bank.

Lets look at how to maximize our operation within our budgets, leave the saber rattling for the bone head that goes shooting turkeys in the sugar bush.

I think we all agree that the data all points to more vac is more sap.

I personal have my zero for a storage tank for my RO. The releaser pumps to that tank until it is full and then a float will tell it to switch to another storage tank. Well insulated so it can sit right next to the RO and not cause any volume reduction due to lengthy piping of sap and she will stay nice and cool. She did a great job for several years as a releaser but she retired several years ago.
Since I am Homeland Security Registered Facility, I already see the regs that are coming and wont buy an open tank. What we have to do as a feed mill is totally over the top but when I had to sit blocking a road for three hours for the bomb squad to remove a discarded suitcase at the Port of Albany; It all became crystal clear.
We aint in Kansas Toto!
Game cams and security cams are here to stay and turned a five hour wait into three.

So lets not scare any new producers into posting questions with personal jabs. Remember there are kids out there that think this is the coolest thing...since mortal combat. LOL

[lpakiz]

Breezy Hill and General Stark,
Well said! I like the respectful tone and sense of understanding you guys construct your posts with, yet you do tell it like you see it. You can disagree without being disagreeable, as you have demonstrated.
Let's strive to be civil here, and respectful of others ideas and methods. There's room for all sizes and technology levels in this enterprise.

[BreezyHill]

You guess are aware of the large growth that Bascoms has undertaken right? I have been told that they have expanded into Europe and are expecting to move a 1/4 of a million gallons within two years. I know the guy that is doing the tubing in Rutland County and I don't see it having any affect on my business at all. May be for some of the producers in the immediate vicinity but there are a lot of things that you can do marketing wise right now to protect your sales. But it is the little guy that will make out in the end on these big expansions.
Customers enjoy knowing their supplier personally. Its that warm fuzzy feeling thing.

Marketing is what will save you or break you when there is a big box store coming to town. In my delivery area for our mill there is nearly a dozen tractor supply stores. They are the best thing that ever happened to us. Do they sell feed...YES...but they mostly have no clue about nutrition and I can 99% of the time supply a better product at a better price. But; I also know how to keep my over head and expenses down and maximize my investments to squeeze every last penny out of every dollar invested.

Keep a close eye on your costs: electric, supplies, containers, capital investments, taxes, labor, screw gun and drill bits, and anything that relates to sap/syrup production. Then divide the costs out over your production.
For us labor at our fair would be a killer if it were not all family. 12 hours open for 6 days, one holiday in there at double time. Over time at time and a half. Break time demands two people on duty. So for a 6 day fair you could easily rack up 200 hours and at only $10/hour that's $2000 put in another $2000 for the space, displays, and supplies and an additional grand for passes and food a fair can be very expensive at $5000 for a week; but when you increase business by as little as $25% and as much as one year at 80% it is worth every penny. But since it is family and I built the displays, and the custom booth off our camper so I have food and facilities right there and ac for those 95 degree days, with a cooler of drinks for the hot new customers; the cost is under $1750 annually.

If you fear the future be proactive today and protect your market...separate your operation from what you fear is coming.

Ben

[BAP]

Part of the point I was trying to make was, that there is not one correct way of doing things. Some of the people with all the high tech gadgets look down on everybody else who doesn't do things the same way. There was one near me a few years ago, who went bankrupt because he put too much money into his high tech equipment, that he couldn't survive a poor crop year. There is many people who don't have all the latest and greatest who dream about it, but for many reasons, don't have it or can't afford it. They get along just fine, making do with what they have. Finally, there is the people who do it just for fun. They have fun tapping a few trees, running a little tubing, and making some syrup to enjoy with their family and friends. Are they the most efficient, probably not. Are they happy, and satisfied, I would imagine YES if they continue to do it each year. The point being, people should sugar the way they want, with the equipment they want to use and are comfortable with. Unfortunately, some people in this world, feel that their way is the only correct way to do something. They also push this on other people. This hold true for Maple Sugaring, farming, sports, cars, financial investments, and many many other pursuits. But in reality, as long is the product you make is made to the correct standards, clean, and a good product, then everybody is right. What everybody should remember is to enjoy what they do and don't judge thigh neighbor for what they do. Nobody has the only answer.

[unc23win]

BAP that was one of your better posts.

There is a difference between % profit and total profit.

I actually know someone with 3000 taps who has been using Zero tanks for 30+ years. He only pulls about 15" and also with no wet dry system or boosters whips or anything just tubing totally old school. Not only that he makes way less than .5 GPT maybe .3 tops. So saying he could make .2GPT more the $ lost in just the last 10 years $180,000 at the least.

As Dr. Perkins said to each his or her own. My advice would be to anyone starting DECIDE are you going to stop at 5 taps or 50,000 and start planning for the high side use this site and others plus books and schools etc..You can't argue with the research.

[Sapboy]

Ive been using a zero tank in my woods with 950 taps for 11 years and I wouldnt say I feel ive been belittling myself by it. When I first put the setup in it was what I could afford. The tank was almost given to me todays prices for stainless tanks. I ran it at 20 in. of vac and it has served me well over the years. Ive known for awhile that I could be getting more sap if I had a releaser and ran higher vac. levels but ive been investing any extra money in expaning my setup in other areas. I added a 750 tap woods a few years ago and yes it has a releaser and runs at 26 in. Last year I added a RO and finally for next season the zero tank is being retired and getting replaced with a releaser and the hope to run higher vac. levels. I think making syrup is whatever you want it to be and noone should feel belittled by their setup. It dosent matter if you do 2 taps in the back yard with pails or have a 10000 tap setup on high vac. getting .5 gpt every year. I have no idea what the number is but I suspect the percentage of those that make their living just making syrup is fairly low so as long as youre making a safe product and are happy with what youre getting and are having fun with it thats all that should matter.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Ive been using a zero tank in my woods with 950 taps for 11 years and I wouldnt say I feel ive been belittling myself by it. When I first put the setup in it was what I could afford. The tank was almost given to me todays prices for stainless tanks. I ran it at 20 in. of vac and it has served me well over the years. Ive known for awhile that I could be getting more sap if I had a releaser and ran higher vac. levels but ive been investing any extra money in expaning my setup in other areas. I added a 750 tap woods a few years ago and yes it has a releaser and runs at 26 in. Last year I added a RO and finally for next season the zero tank is being retired and getting replaced with a releaser and the hope to run higher vac. levels. I think making syrup is whatever you want it to be and noone should feel belittled by their setup. It dosent matter if you do 2 taps in the back yard with pails or have a 10000 tap setup on high vac. getting .5 gpt every year. I have no idea what the number is but I suspect the percentage of those that make their living just making syrup is fairly low so as long as youre making a safe product and are happy with what youre getting and are having fun with it thats all that should matter.

A simple question for you Sapboy, do you sugar for the fun of it, for the money or a different reason? Just curious

[Sapboy]

Thad
I make syrup because I love it. Its the only thing that truely look forward to everyday. Im well aware of the reasearch and statistics that say higher vac. means more sap. I do realize that I could have made more syrup if I had gotten rid of the zero tank years ago and gone for higher vac.levels but I had other areas in my setup in the processing end that i was wanting to expand first. In I certainly have nothing against you or anyone else that has a high vac. super efficient setup and im trying to get there myself someday. I also am not trying to say I have anything against anyone that does make their living making syrup. If anyone was offended and thought I was trying to say something otherwise I apologize. But what I am saying is I dont think its right to be making people feel like their setup is inferior to yours and say they are "belittling themselves" or making them feel they should be ashamed of their setup.

[BAP]

Unfortunately, for some people, the only thing important to them is the ALL MIGHTY DOLLAR. They become so focused on that, they forget to love what they are doing, and have fun.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Unfortunately, for some people, the only thing important to them is the ALL MIGHTY DOLLAR. They become so focused on that, they forget to love what they are doing, and have fun.

I am most certainly focused on the all mighty dollar. But why not maximize what I love so that I make as much as I can while I am loving it. It doesn't take that much more effort to make a lot more syrup/money than it takes to make less. And to me I would not be able to have as much fun if I made less. Once you get it figured out and you can make an extra 30% you would never go back to making less. Now if you have a regular job if they said sorry BAP but starting tomorrow we are cutting your pay 30%, not sure it would be as much fun going to work.

[wdchuck]

My 2 cents worth.....there comes a point in most maple operations when you have to consider the dollars. If you're a hobby operation, that point may never come. If its a sideline and you aren't totally dependent on the cash, but its still a sizeable operation from the expenses side, you're probably going to be limited by what you can re-invest. Thad and I are both self employed, so we absolutely have to treat things as a business- that's how we got it to become a business!

[BAP]

I am not saying that if it is your only business, that you don't need to achieve to most return for your dollar. Also you need to try your best to make maximum profit. What I am saying is, that wether or not other people have the same goals, is their choice. If the choose to use older technology, and achieve lower results, is their business. They don't need to have somebody else's idea of what is best, rammed down there throat if it isn't what they want. If you can't accept that, then keep you thoughts gentle suggestions, not "you have to absolute do this or else." I have been sugaring my whole life. My family started making syrup in the depression, then WWII when there was no sugar to buy. Then moved on to making a large, second business to dairy farming. I was involved for 40 years before become disabled and having to give it up. Now I just do it as a hobby when I feel up to it. So I have seen both sides, visited a lot of sugarhouses. talked to a lot of people about it. I feel everybody's situation is different. Only they can choose what is the best fit for their particular setup and sugarbush. What works for person A may not be right for Person B. They are the ones to choose what is best for them, wether it is super high tech cutting edge technology, or methods that are more proven and older. How they market the syrup can dictate there methods. A highly visible, high traffic operation, with a lot of retail out of the sugar house sales may do much better with a open, wood fired evaporator, buckets hanging near by, and horse and wagon to gather with. An operation like that can attract a lot of visitors for the nostalgia and make a lot of money in retail sales because they can actually see they syrup being made from tree to syrup. The next person, may have no visitors because they are way off the beaten path, and only wholesale their syrup. They would do the best with getting the absolute last drop of syrup they can out of the trees with the most efficient operation. What it amounts to is everybody needs to accept that what you do is your business, what somebody else does is their's. You can give them advice if they ask, not force them to change.

[Brian Ryther]

I feel that this is a unnecessary exercise in beating up one persons take on a subject. This is a "forum." That means that there will be several opinions on a subject. It is up to us the observers to filter out the crap from what pertains to our needs. If you do not like a post then wait for the next one. Get back on track and talk about maple stuff.

[sugarsand]

This thread has been pretty well soiled, sugarin seasonneeds to come early!

[PerryW]

My 2 cents worth.....there comes a point in most maple operations when you have to consider the dollars. If you're a hobby operation, that point may never come. If its a sideline and you aren't totally dependent on the cash, but its still a sizeable operation from the expenses side, you're probably going to be limited by what you can re-invest. Thad and I are both self employed, so we absolutely have to treat things as a business- that's how we got it to become a business!

I like to think I do pretty well with my wood fired open pans with no RO and no vacuum. My one man operation can be totally set up with only 3-4 days of work and I have no fancy hi-tech, high maintenance equipment to stress over and run 20 year old tubing. I can make my 120 gallons of syrup with around $1000 in expenses each year and sell it all retail. Not bad for a part time job that lasts 8 weeks!

Never have to run to st albans in a panic looking for a seal or a bushing. Never have to drag a pump out of the woods though deep snow. DOn;t have to buy and through out new plastic every 2 years and can run w/o electrical power or any fossil fuels.

[BreezyHill]

Guys lets face the facts:
#1 We all do what we do for different reasons...these are our reasons.
#2 There will come a point in every operation that we will try something different. That is why we share our experiences and failures.
#3 It is cheaper to learn from others mistakes....I've made plenty...wont waste my $$$ or time on some of the new tech.

But since I want...no need to make more; because the taxes on the farm keep going up, I am/do try new things to see what works for me on my operation.

If I can get the same results with a new tap every year...I am going to put a new 18 cent clear spout in every tree every year. And all new taps will have a y to connect; as I saw the difference using a y over a tee, first hand.

Quite often it is not a matter of cant afford to, but a matter of cant afford not to for some operations.

When I crunch the numbers I need to get another $4000 a year to cover taxes. So I will invest in more tubing and tap every last tree on the farm that I can reach with out costing more than they can produce over 5 years. I am at 27+ " and have a plan to stay there.

The other thing is I hate to see my friend sell their syrup at bulk rate when there is a way to get more. So I am working on that too.
Safety is a standard that is uncompromising. I remember 30 years ago running a 5 x 18 and a 2 x 6 evaporator at the same time. It was hell. So dad bought the RO. It was noisy as hell! But it beat running back and forth filling wood, and cutting all that wood. OMG! I don't miss that at all.

Be it 10 taps or 10 thousand enjoy what you do, help your neighbor, and Thank God you were born in a land of choice. Or we would not be having this discussion.

I had a friend that put 3 kids thru Clarkson as a single parent...he did the bare minimum at raising his cattle and invested next to nothing to do it. The end result was three graduates, a beef farm that kept on going and a lot of people scratching their heads when he walked out of the auctions smiling year after year with the highest price on the east cost for several years. Would he have made more # of beef if he did things more high tech...YES; but he would not have been making as much $$$/# of beef by using that old equipment, and just buying oil, grease, twine, salt blocks, and some liquid feed for the replacement heifers. He had his goal in sight and a budget to work with. I wish I could duplicate his results but we have different markets.

Many faulted him for his practices but in the end he made the most profit at the end of the year.

I salute everyone that can take maple water and make Syrup. I don't care how few you tap or how many. You are a Master Craftsman!

[DrTimPerkins]

...in the end he made the most profit at the end of the year.

It is certainly valid to treat maple sugaring as a hobby, or to not make any changes because you are comfortable with what you are doing or are making what you consider to be a reasonable return. What you do depends upon your personal and business objectives and resources.

Some people look at possible changes and think....can't do that, it'll COST me too much. Others will do anything they can if it will get them a little more sap per tap, thereby maximizing INCOME. In general what producers should be doing (if your objective is to make money sugaring) is maximizing NET PROFIT (while still managing your resource properly). It's simple to minimize cost....don't make any changes...but you lose any increased sap yields and potential net profit this might get you. It is also fairly easy to maximize sap production.....lots of things increase sap yields (both in terms of activities and equipment)....but doing some of these things is costly, and doesn't increase income proportionally....thus you also end up with a lower net profit. However judging net profit is more difficult to measure than cost or income. Some things you do will result in a decent net profit, some of them have no real effect on the bottom line, and some of them result in a net loss to the producer.

For example....we know that replacing droplines (including the spout) every single year will produce the highest sap yields and highest income to the producer. The high cost of doing that (materials and labor) reduces the net profit considerably however, making it unlikely that many will consider it. We can look at several different strategies (as long as we have sufficient data) in this manner, and construct models to help us judge the value of different approaches. This is actually the topic of a paper I am in the midst of writing....hopefully it'll be ready in time for the Maple Digest in January 2014.

[DrTimPerkins]

I can make my 120 gallons of syrup with around $1000 in expenses each year and sell it all retail. Not bad for a part time job that lasts 8 weeks!

And that is perfectly fine if that is your objective. Making a few assumptions (average $60/gal in sales across all sizes) That comes out to $7,200 in income, minus your $1,000 in expenses (would be more if you had to cut your own wood) giving you a net profit of $6,200. Assuming you work only 20 hrs per week (part-time, although we're not counting your time spent selling syrup), although I'm guessing it would take longer than that boiling raw sap, for 8 wks gives you $45/hr in net profit. For 1,000 taps that's not at all bad. If that fits your objectives.....great....keep doing it....nothing wrong with that at all.

Let's look at another other option. One guy, 5,000 taps, high-tech, full-time, selling all in bulk. He's pulling good high vacuum, uses new spouts each year, and is checking for leaks frequently, so is making 0.5 gal/tap (very doable). That gives him 2,500 gallons of syrup x 11 lbs x $2.60/gal bulk price (averaging across all grades). He doesn't spend any time packing syrup....packer comes and gets it all at once. Income is $71,500. Let's say he spends half of that on equipment each year (probably on the high side of things after a few yrs), so he has $35,750 in net income (not bad at all for a temporary job). Divide that by 10 wks (takes him a little longer to get the woods straightened out and tapped in with that many trees) at 60 hrs/wk (he's really working hard during that time to make sure he gets a good yield) gives you $59.58/hr pay. As long as he isn't buying a new pump or new RO every year or two he would be doing far better than that.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Now once you have the equipment for 5000, its not a huge jump in equipment to go to 10,000....... now your profit more than doubles.....

[PerryFamily]

I thing the sugaring business is much like any other business.....you have to start somewhere.

For example, does a contractor start in business with brand new equipment or does he start with a used excavator, run it for 3-4 years, hope and pray there are not any catastrophic failures and then step into a new machine when work and money allows?

No doubt that there are some people who either some extra coin or have loans and big b@##s, and great for them if they can afford to go that route.

I am sure a large scale producer such as Thad had to start somewhere. But one thing I have been told and I have found very truthful...NUMBERS DONT LIE. With such a short window to make the maximum amount of syrup possible , if you are trying to make a living making syrup, I would think you absolutely need to go with the technology for the greatest yield possible. There is soo much data out there to back it up.

There is a operation near me that is backed by a TON of money. They said they spent $250k+ just getting the sugarhouse setup not to mention 800 taps on vac. They made a 370 gallons. My setup including tubing for 1100 taps cost me approx 10 % of their setup and I made 250 gallons.I made money with syrup....not syrup with money.

Again, I think everyone has to start somewhere and everyones goals are different.

good luck to everyone

[unc23win]

It doesn't seem at all right that a sugarhouse set up for 800 taps on vacuum cost 250K at that much I hope they are planning on expanding a lot.

Myself I am set up for 2,000 on vac. I went with a used Evap and used RO but I did price a brand new evap I at $42,000 Lapierre Oil burner much bigger than needed when paired with an RO a new 600 GPH RO depending on brand is what about 12-15K? My lines total about $10,000.

I am buildng a 30x36 sugarhouse myself materials are about $10,000 thats a high guess and I am doing a few extras to make it a little nicer. So 250K makes me wonder did they buy land as well? I could be set up with all new for under 100K

Also Thad is right it doesn't take much more to go from 5,000-10,000. I know one outfit that has 10,000 taps on 20" they got about .35 GPT if they increased it to .5 GPT by just getting a new pump for maybe $6,000 they would make another 1500 gallons.

[PerryW]

For 1,000 taps that's not at all bad. If that fits your objectives.....great....keep doing it....nothing wrong with that at all.



Yes, that meets my objectives. If I was 10 times bigger, I would be stressing about the weather and crying over spilled sap. I can have a disastrous year (like 2012) and just laugh it off. For the record, with my sawmill, others pay me to cut my sugaring wood!

8004

[PerryFamily]

No he didn't buy any land. He's very eccentric and is loaded. The sugarhouse has a full basement With heat and a handicap bathroom. The structure is a full timber frame That is the ugliest sugarhouse I have ever seen. Its very modern looking. Plus he has a moron that works for him. All of their equipment is used. I think he has more money in concrete and building than anything. He pays the guy that works for him $100 an hour to mow brush around is fields with an excavator. I tried to tell him he's creating a monoculture by getting rid of every tree except maples But they don't listen they have money.

I do agree that once you hit that 5000 tap number Thad is correct at jumping to 10,000. At that point anything about 20 inches is money in the bank for sure and well worth the investment.

[unc23win]

WOW well I guess profit is of no concern for that kind of money I guess that would be an extreme hobbyist.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I am sure a large scale producer such as Thad had to start somewhere.

I started with 4900 taps, then straight to just over 10,000.

I built my own sugarhouse, the only thing I hired was the concrete poured and finished, I did the forms and the rebar. Also I build my own arch, 6x14, oil for a cost of $2000, two carlin 801's for 1800, used pans,steamaway, and stacks, 9000. Everything else was purchased new. And I would not look back.

If making money is 3rd or 4th on your list then don't worry about high vacuum, but if money is higher on the list then high vacuum is a must.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I started with 4900 taps, then straight to just over 10,000.

I built my own sugarhouse, the only thing I hired was the concrete poured and finished, I did the forms and the rebar. Also I build my own arch, 6x14, oil for a cost of $2000, two carlin 801's for 1800, used pans,steamaway, and stacks, 9000. Everything else was purchased new. And I would not look back.

If making money is 3rd or 4th on your list then don't worry about high vacuum, but if money is higher on the list then high vacuum is a must.

then he sweet talks these flat landers from AZ to come help for free. Then charges them to wipe up the drool on the floor as they watch the syrup pour out of the rig at 110 an hour on a slow day.
I would go back in a heart beat to see it again just amazing for one guy to run this rig, as rumor has it I am said to drink a little during sugaring (no pics no proof) but on this day I couldnt crack a beer until the oil guns were off I was as nervous as a welfare rat waiting for another check and the govt shutting down.

[whitetail farms]

well I was doing some research cause I thought I hade an amazing idea to turn a cage tank into a zero tank, but after seeing that I can see why no one else has done it yet.