High Efficiency Evaporators

[Amber Gold]

So I'm thinking about buying a new evaporator, and would prefer a high efficiency model. I'm looking to expand, but only want to cut/split/stack/load so much wood.

So I've made the rounds in St. Albans the past few years and the Force 5 sounds great but is it really as efficient as they claim, and does it boil hard or is the efficiency gained by just petering along? Then you've got CDL's intenso-fire and D&G's Tornado, which are basically Jerry's design with some tweaks I'm sure. Their both claiming high evap. rates per sq. ft of arch, but how much wood are they going through to get there? They all say there's is the best, but it could all be sales b.s.

Then there's the cost. I'm looking at a 2.5x10 w/ pans, preheater, and hood. The companies are all in the same ballpark at about $25k (think it was sale price, so it'll go up). You can get a standard arch w/ forced draft from the bottom and front w/ pans/preheater/hood for about $12k. Is it really worth the $12k extra to get a H.E. evaporator? I can buy a lot of wood for $12k.

Then there's the max pan debate. Some claim the extra flue depth doesn't make a difference, yet others claim you get 10-20% more.

Another option would be to have an 802Maple arch made locally and buy a new set of pans for it. I think I can do that for $14-15k.

It'd be nice if there's was an independent testing source, or a competition between the brands, so a consumer knows what they're really getting.

Thanks for any input you all can provide.

[500592]

Here is uninteresting thread http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?13939-Boil-Off-Maple-Rama/page6&highlight=Boil.

[sam1234]

Hi Ambergold,

I will talk about the CDL rigs that I know kinda well...
You have two options with CDL.

#1 - The intens'o'Fire
This arch is a high-efficiency arch with high evaporation rate. (5gal. imperial per sq.ft.)
Air Controls are manual

#2 - The Chinook which is basically an upgraded version of the intens'o'fire is specifically built to have the best efficiency possible.
The upgrades are : Automatic air control which will keep a constant boil during all the load.
Preheater for the air that will bring down the stack temperature drastically from to increase efficiency and inject hot air in the firebox for easy gasification.
2012-2013 customers are claiming : 1/3 cord of wood per 32 gal. imperial drum when concentrating at 10.
Max evaporation rate 4 gal. imperial per sq.ft.

If you are a Customer looking for performance, I would definately go with the intens'o'fire because this arch is powerful while being good on wood consumption.
The intens'o'fire is cheaper than the chinook. It doesn't matter if wood is dry or not.

If you are a Customer looking for maximum efficiency, you should go for the Chinook.

I hope it helps!




So I'm thinking about buying a new evaporator, and would prefer a high efficiency model. I'm looking to expand, but only want to cut/split/stack/load so much wood.

So I've made the rounds in St. Albans the past few years and the Force 5 sounds great but is it really as efficient as they claim, and does it boil hard or is the efficiency gained by just petering along? Then you've got CDL's intenso-fire and D&G's Tornado, which are basically Jerry's design with some tweaks I'm sure. Their both claiming high evap. rates per sq. ft of arch, but how much wood are they going through to get there? They all say there's is the best, but it could all be sales b.s.

Then there's the cost. I'm looking at a 2.5x10 w/ pans, preheater, and hood. The companies are all in the same ballpark at about $25k (think it was sale price, so it'll go up). You can get a standard arch w/ forced draft from the bottom and front w/ pans/preheater/hood for about $12k. Is it really worth the $12k extra to get a H.E. evaporator? I can buy a lot of wood for $12k.

Then there's the max pan debate. Some claim the extra flue depth doesn't make a difference, yet others claim you get 10-20% more.

Another option would be to have an 802Maple arch made locally and buy a new set of pans for it. I think I can do that for $14-15k.

It'd be nice if there's was an independent testing source, or a competition between the brands, so a consumer knows what they're really getting.

Thanks for any input you all can provide.

[upsmapleman]

I got one of the first intens o fire to come out I think it was 003. It was one of the best things I did. It is not all about how much wood you burn but how well you can boil. These will burn just about any wood you put in the door and the boil will be from front to back with door open or closed. It boils down to how much you want to spend and what you want to accomplish. A high efficiency arch will allow you to make more syrup in a shorter time. I got mine like 15 years ago and am sure it was a lot less than 5k. I have had zero trouble with it

[Shawn]

Andress Sheet Metal in Plainfield NH. John makes what you want and its the best around, . He is fair and does it right and knows what he is doing.:cool: Makes pans, arches what ever you need. He has made a lot of them and has done a lot in this area. Hard to find a Tin Smith around anymore that knows what and how to do things let alone he will come to the sugar house to finish the work or to work on something.

[Dave Y]

Ambergold, I am a Force 5 owner. I have boiled on my rig for four years. I will tell you that this rig will do what Lapierre says it will. I am very satisfied with my rig and if I had to do it over I would by a Force 5. I can not speak to what others will do. The force 5 is the easiest rig to boil on that I have seen. you would not go wrong purchasing one. Good Luck.

[tuckermtn]

josh- I think you know my numbers, but for the record-

2.5x8 with a 5.5ft raised flu grimm with I think 7" flues.

arch is based on 802maples design with two air circuits- one for air under through drilled brick, the other puts air in the door, over the door, down both rails, and on the back wall. Dayton high pressure blower.

We do not try to burn less wood, we try and boil as hard as we can. 100-110 gph average with no pre-heater and boiling 7-8% on average.

we burned a little less than 10 cords (6 cord softwood, 4 cord hardwood) to make 640 gallons. So I figure 65 gallons to the cord. Breezy Lane has a similar arch and he does way better with gallons/cord, but I think he has a pre-heater and concentrates to 18%.

I think I have around $6K in to my arch.

I would make another arch like this in a heartbeat...

[brookledge]

I have always thought of anevaporator like a car. you can drive a car with the pedal to the floor you will get to the finish line quicker but use a lot more fuel. The same thing can be said with evaporators. When you want to maximize your gallons of syrup per cord of wood then you can run lower stack temps and have lower boiling rates. With the new style evaporators they are trying to keep lower stack temps and give high evaporation rates. This will maximize your efficiency.
Keith

[nymapleguy607]

My new arch that I boiled on this year is based off the intensofire design. I like that it gives you the option to boil very fast with a high evaporation rate depending on how much air you run through the grates or you can give up some evaporation and boil more on the gasification side. I havent ran any other evaporators so I don't know if the others would give you that flexibility

[Bruce L]

Can you get too much air under the grates?When Leader brought the new arch last year,it came with the standard sized blowers for under the grates,but with our set up there is an elbow,possibly causing a restriction.They switched up blowers for a larger size,and the back pan was sure jumping this year.Bruce suggested more stack height to draw to the back of the pan even more,I am wondering about a larger old furnace fan with a variable speed motor,if I were to get even more airflow through the grates,or is there a point where you can have too much airflow through the grates?

[lpakiz]

On my home made Intensofire, the stack temp (well, the temp of every thing) is controlled solely by the grate air. You could have a very generous sized blower, but be sure you can control it, as ours will run wild if left in full air. We shoot for 800 on the stack, but you better start throttling it back at about 775 or you will overshoot for sure. I bet less than 30 seconds after it hits 775 and is not controlled, the stack would be at 12-1300 degrees. BTW, sap is jumping into the hood gutter at 900.

[PerryFamily]

you can absolutely have too big of a blower. I had a blower from a hot air furnace on my 2x6 and it was too big. I choked off the air supply as much as possible and had a heavy duty rheostat slowing it down and it still wanted to blow the doors open!! I ended up making a bracket to hold the doors shut. But, man did it boil!!!! At 10% I was making 4-5 gallons an hour. Soo much steam you couldn't see any sap in the pan there was so much steam. Made me nervous really. actually got the casting around the doors glowing and cracked it in 3 places. For 2013 I am going to get the arch front welded, get a smaller blower and build a air tight door. Hopefully get another yr out of it.

Was thinking about building a manifold in the ash pit to direct the air directly up instead of at the draft door, any ideas ?

check out the pictures at perry family mapleworks on face book

[nymapleguy607]

On my home made Intensofire, the stack temp (well, the temp of every thing) is controlled solely by the grate air. You could have a very generous sized blower, but be sure you can control it, as ours will run wild if left in full air. We shoot for 800 on the stack, but you better start throttling it back at about 775 or you will overshoot for sure. I bet less than 30 seconds after it hits 775 and is not controlled, the stack would be at 12-1300 degrees. BTW, sap is jumping into the hood gutter at 900.
Does your blower run at 3450rpm?

[lpakiz]

Jeff,
I am cheating on blower speed in that I am using a 3 phase 1/2 HP motor run by a VFD drive from Factorymation.com
The drive can be speed controlled from near 0 rpm to double rpm. ( O HZ to 120 HZ) The impeller is direct-mounted on the armature of the motor. The motor is a 1725 rpm. We run, at most, 70 cycles. Not sure of the math, but guessing our rpm at 2000. (1725 divided by 60 equals 28.75....times 70 results in 2012 rpm). The first day we used a 1/2 HP single phase at 1725 but could not get the stack temp we wanted. Our blower was a bit too small. The second boil I had installed the variable speed set up and it is just what we needed. Like I said earlier, get the blower a bit bigger than you need, then restrict the intake to get the right CFMs for your total system (AOF and AUF) Your grate control should do the rest.
BTW, the VFD was about $122, and is powered by 220 single phase, and puts out 220 3 phase. It is a really neat way to make a variable speed anything. I am getting one for my lathe and for the drill press. I already have several motors laying around.....

[Amber Gold]

I want my cake and eat it too. I want at least 20 min load times, burn less wood, and boil hard.

I forgot about the boiloff from a few years ago...they should do another this summer. I also forgot I did some calc's to generate sap boil/chord of wood and the Lapierre was way ahead of everyone else on that number and boiled almost as much sap. One thing I like about the Force 5 is it burns almost dry, large chunks of wood, so the wood you're burning requires much less labor.

The HE arches alone are $15-16k for the size I'm looking at. Is there that much more work building one of these than a standard arch worth $4k? Burning less wood is great, but it's sure coming at a cost.

[jmayerl]

Josh,

I believe I was able to build just what you are speaking about. The wood also depends on load times but when using hardwood in 6" logs I was at 30 minute firing times. The burn was a little slower but I could crank the grates up and burn a bit faster. When I used softwood slabs it really boiled but then I had to fire every 15 minutes, couldn't back off the grates anymore to slow it either.

With some considerable build time and research, a arch can be build to function like the big boys....will Ido it again, probably not.

[Jeff E]

I agree, with the time and effort, you can upgrade for more efficiency. I took my 3x12, added a steam pan, over and under air and get 170 gph.
Thats a real 4.7 gph per sq foot off an old Leader drop flue set up.

All together, I have about 13K into the evaporator. I think that is pretty good cost to production ratio. What would a new rig cost that does 170 gph?

[Dave Y]

Josh,
most tinkers think they can build a high efficiency arch and I believe they can improve on thier efficiency. However after boiling on a force 5 for four years, I doubt they will reach the efficiency of this rig. I have a steamaway on my 4x14 and I have boiled 385gph with 40 min firing times. I use only half the wood I did with my 3x12 and make way more syrup. I buy my wood so this rig pays for its self. you get what you pay for. Come and see me and I will show you the difference.

[Jeff E]

That is impressive boil rate. Not to nit pick, but do you consistantly boil at 385 gph and 40 min firings?
That is 6.9 ghp per sq ft. That is a great rig. What did it cost?

[Dave Y]

yes it is fairly consistent. If you have to ask how much you cant afford it. lets say I spent more on it than any thing else I have ever bought. But it makes me money.

[Dave Y]

Jeff,
I run my front pan at 1 1/2"and the back pan 1/2"over the flues. the steamaway is run about half way up the steam tubes. Sometimes my pump for the head tank has a hard time keeping up. I do not have a RO and need to boil as hard as possible. once I get an RO I will back off a little

[Jeff E]

yes it is fairly consistent. If you have to ask how much you cant afford it. lets say I spent more on it than any thing else I have ever bought. But it makes me money.

Oh come on, :) you can tell us how much you spent!

[ennismaple]

I'd be willing to guess Dave has more into that rig than if he bought a brand new 3/4 ton pickup with all the bells and whistles.

[Dave Y]

Ennis, you are right on target. Only the rig is prettier and will last longer.

[Amber Gold]

Dave, I would like to make a trip out your way, but it wouldn't be anytime soon. What were you getting for gph before you added the steamaway? Are you burning all hardwood to get 40 min. load times?

We burned about 10 chord of wood this year that I need to replace. Since we're burning wood in the house, I'm not interested in burning much more wood in the SH every year. We did concentrate to 12% on average, but going higher wouldn't save me that much wood. If I buy wood, I'll pay a bit more to have it split small like the intensofire type arches like. The Force 5 is appealing because anything <8" you leave alone. What about burning slabs in the force 5? I can get all those I want for free, and very little labor involved.

[Dave Y]

Josh, I was getting 265 be fore the steam away. as far as slabs go I wouldn't waste my time with them. they will burn like paper. I burn all chunk wood and like it to be 6-8 in diameter. also if i can get wood that was on the stump in March,April or May I like it better. this year we had a lot of hold over wood and it burned too fast. I like the fact that there isn't a lot of splitting to make wood for the Force 5.This rig saves me work in more than one way. and we all know time is money. How big of a rig are you looking for?

[ennismaple]

One of best parts about the Force 5 is the reduced time spent splitting wood. If we can lift it we don't split it. A lot of the wood we burned this past season was unsplit hardwood tops from 4" to 8" dia and cut to 44" long. Once we got through that wood we got into a bunch of 4yr old basswood that was split very fine with some slabs mixed in - and did it ever suck! We couldn't control the burn rate and the stack temp got too high and we were throwing sparks and smoke out the stack. At least its gone!

[Amber Gold]

I'm also looking to reduce my work in the off-season. Not having to split wood, or at least minimize the wood I do split, is appealing. Lapierre says to cut/stack the wood August/September so the wood isn't too dry. Is that true? Can the wood be too wet?

I'm looking at a 2.5x10. Lapierre claims 104 gph with a preheater...~4gph/sf. Dave, you were getting almost 4.7gph. Did you have a hood/preheater to get that? I'm wondering if Lapierre's stated rates are conservative and if the the 2.5x10 will actually do more like 125gph. If I had a lot of sap to boil, I wouldn't mind going from 40 min. load times to 20-30 min. if it meant the evap. rate went up.

The new version preheats the air going into the fire, so not sure how much of a difference this makes in either the efficiency or boil rate.

[pdr]

Are you all referring to face cords or 4'x4'x8' cords?

[Moser's Maple]

Hey josh
When I was talking to rejean last weekend at the open house we too were thinking 10' but he recommended 12' to help promote better gasification and to keep stack temps cooler

[ennismaple]

Josh - We run our RO at 3.25 GPM all season and the Force 5 keeps up. That works out to 195 GPH feed rate or almost bang on 4 GPH per square foot. Some days we can do better depending on how high a concentrate we're feeding it - meaning we pull off more syrup per hour. I don't fire as hard as my brother does so I get more efficiency out of the wood but he gets more GPH and re-fires more often.

We're getting a load of logs delivered in July for next season to suppliment what we've already cut ourselves. I'll be cut to length, split and stacked in September and should be perfect for burning in March. We don't have a way to measure moisture content of our wood but that seems to work for us.

At our size I never refer to face chords because every reload of The Beast is about a third of a face chord! Up until we got into the crappy wood and the sugar content dropped we were getting better than 70 gallons of syrup per full chord of wood and we don't concentrate above 7% to 8%.