Pellet evaporator- anyone with experience?

[tuckermtn]

There have been sever threads on here about pellet burning evaporators, but to my knowledge there is not someone on the Trader that has used either the CDL or the D&G models that are out there. Lapierre has one, but don't think they have sold any of the $45,000 arches in the States.

I am looking for some real-life feedback from someone who has one of these rigs, as the feedback that I have been getting from salesmen in the industry is NOT encouraging. I am most concerned about reliability. I am not interested in something I have to tinker with.

I am leaning toward oil as an alternative for next year. I make my living in the forest products community, so to admit that I am looking at oil is almost a sacrilege. With my declining health (ALS) if I want to still make syrup, I need to do something other than chuck cordwood.

So looking for feedback or a connection with someone who has run a pellet arch.

The next thread will be some oil fired evaporator questions if it comes to that.

Thanks-

-Eric

[wiam]

There is a guy in Corinth, VT that has a wood chip set up. I do not know much about it.

[Mark]

I burn chips but but could burn pellets. With pellets you would have to have a storage and handling system that takes room. Pellets are still half the cost of oil. The arch would cost a bunch more. How long would it take to recover the cost? If I had health problems I would rather flip a switch to fire the arch.

[sam1234]

There have been sever threads on here about pellet burning evaporators, but to my knowledge there is not someone on the Trader that has used either the CDL or the D&G models that are out there. Lapierre has one, but don't think they have sold any of the $45,000 arches in the States.

I am looking for some real-life feedback from someone who has one of these rigs, as the feedback that I have been getting from salesmen in the industry is NOT encouraging. I am most concerned about reliability. I am not interested in something I have to tinker with.

I am leaning toward oil as an alternative for next year. I make my living in the forest products community, so to admit that I am looking at oil is almost a sacrilege. With my declining health (ALS) if I want to still make syrup, I need to do something other than chuck cordwood.

So looking for feedback or a connection with someone who has run a pellet arch.

The next thread will be some oil fired evaporator questions if it comes to that.

Thanks-

-Eric

Hi, You should communicate with CDL (1-800-762-5587) Ask for Garth as he sold a few units last year. He will be more than happy to give you a few customers phone numbers that have purchased some this year. You could communicate with them directly to have the truth. Otherwise, the is one running in Newport Vermont this weekend or in St-.Albans April 26th - 27th.

[collinsmapleman2012]

VVS, The school where the NYS maple conference is held, owns one that was new this year. they are burning willow chips from a biomass project in it. seems to work well and its really efficient on wood chips.

[gmcooper]

Tucker, I have been thinking about a pellet evaporator since the NY conference in Jan. My biggest concern is reliabilty. So far there does not seem to be very many in use and from Garth at CDL they have been tweeking them every year. I believe he said the model coming on the market for next year should be good. That wasn't a huge selling point for me. I appreciate the fact that they have been improving them but what if the next model isn't quite there as well.
To be honest in your situation I would go with oil. Messing around with a plugged augur while boiling would certainly be a PIA. Fuel might cost more but the arches have been in use for years the technology is not new. I think the resale on an oil fire unit would hold up better than the pellet model.

[tuckermtn]

I got a hold of David Hicks from the Colebrook NH area this afternoon. He is in his second year of running a 4 x 14 CDL pellet arch. He loves it. I was certainly encouraged to hear that. He is also a dealer for CDL, but I think I got a straight answer. I think gmcooper's point about re-sale is an interesting one that I had not considered.

I think from past quotes, just the CDL 2.5 x 8 pellet arch (no pans) is in the $16K range. Two years down the road, what it is going to be worth since it is a unique rig that someone might not be willing to take on. If I knew that I could spread the depreciation out over more years, then it might be an easier to swallow. The reality is I have no idea how quickly my ALS will progress.

So I am leaning toward finding a reasonibly efficient oil fired 2.5 x 8 or something close that will do 80-120 GPH.

I also plan on upgrading my RO to something more automated and quieter than my existing Memtek RO. Automatic shut off in the concentrate and rinse mode would be a nice thing! Plan is to also make some layout improvements in the sugarhouse so things are more accessible. Its a new layer to consider in my operation, but if I want to continue to make syrup - something that is a huge part of who I am - I need to be realistic about what I can and cannot do.

-E

[wiam]

Eric, yours does not have "automatic" switch. Mine would shut off when concentrating but not when washing or rinsing. I added a regular pump pressure switch after the filter and wired in to the control. I can walk away now.

[tuckermtn]

mine does have the pressure switch and other automatic controls, but they have all been disabled. Want something quieter in the sugarhouse anyway.

[wiam]

I understand the noise more than most. lol Mine is in an unattached shed.

[PerryFamily]

Eric- I too am very interested in the CDL pellet evaporator, although it will be at least one more season before I can make the move.

CDL said that a complete 2.5x8 is $23k, and the arch only is $16k. They also said a comparable oil rig is $20k, but didnt mention what oil model it was.

I had not thought about the resale value either. I guess I was hoping it was going to be the last....probably not.

Being a one man operation (more or less), I am looking for the consistency of oil but using a domestically produced product. You should be able to buy the pellets in the summer when they are the cheapest.

I am going to look at them closer at the open houses and see if I can get some details.

With a nice efficiency grant, who knows one may be closer than I thought.

[sam1234]

Tucker, I have been thinking about a pellet evaporator since the NY conference in Jan. My biggest concern is reliabilty. So far there does not seem to be very many in use and from Garth at CDL they have been tweeking them every year. I believe he said the model coming on the market for next year should be good. That wasn't a huge selling point for me. I appreciate the fact that they have been improving them but what if the next model isn't quite there as well.
To be honest in your situation I would go with oil. Messing around with a plugged augur while boiling would certainly be a PIA. Fuel might cost more but the arches have been in use for years the technology is not new. I think the resale on an oil fire unit would hold up better than the pellet model.

Roughly 5 CDL Sirocco were sold in the USA last year and at least 60 in Québec/Ontario si I could say this arch is more than a prototype.
Savings are 60% over fuel in Quebec (maybe a little less in USA because fuel is cheaper). 50% would still be fair I believe. The more fuel you burn, the more interesting it gets.
Concerning the resale value, I wouldn't worry about it. If you really (but I don't think you would) want to switch back to oïl. Insert an oil burner in front of it and your done.

[gmcooper]

Roughly 5 CDL Sirocco were sold in the USA last year and at least 60 in Québec/Ontario si I could say this arch is more than a prototype.
Savings are 60% over fuel in Quebec (maybe a little less in USA because fuel is cheaper). 50% would still be fair I believe. The more fuel you burn, the more interesting it gets.
Concerning the resale value, I wouldn't worry about it. If you really (but I don't think you would) want to switch back to oïl. Insert an oil burner in front of it and your done.

The number sold in US and CA is more than I heard from CDL but that is encouraging that they are getting more in service. I did not think the arch was convertable to oil with some of the modifications with the air injection.

I am still looking at the pellet evaporator and hopefully get to see one in action this spring.

[tuckermtn]

A first today in my brief 9 year maple career- bought some equipment that is actually new.

Signed on the dotted line today for a 2.5 x 8 CDL pellet arch. Still working on the pans for the new arch.

Chris from maple guys has been great to deal with. Nice early order discount.

Lots to figure out between now and delivery (silo feed vs. hopper, how to finally get real power to the sugarhouse) but very psyched to give this rig some 8% to boil...

-E

[PerryFamily]

Eric - congrats on the new purchase!!
I have friends in Andover and would live to check it out when you get it!!
Keep up posted.

[maple flats]

Yes, congratulations. I'll be following this as you start using it.
I too am thinking about a pellet rig in the next few years. They run cheaper than oil and far quieter. An oil fired roars. It would be too loud for my liking. I was thinking of getting a funnel bottom grain bin with an auger to feed the arch. There are 2 pellet manufacturers (maybe more) within 100 miles, one is only 30 miles away. Quieter and 35-50% the fuel cost of oil are my reasons for considering one.

[lpakiz]

Eric,
You may know this, but the funnel-bottom tanks can be configured with a 3 inch? FLEXIBLE auger, so the tank can be located in a convenient location, both for filling and general, out-of-the-way placement. They do this in cattle feeding places, here anyway.

[tuckermtn]

yes I was doing some research this morning on feed silos and cone bottom tanks as well. Lots to learn. I have a good friend who worked for years at New England Wood Pellet so I will be picking his brain.

[JAMIE]

Google Chore Time they make flex augers that would work excellent for moving pellets into the sugar house.We used them in are hog barns,worked great and trouble free.

[sam1234]

Hi Eric,

I am glad to see you made the deal with Chris.
We will be presenting a vacuum feeder for small units at the open house in st.lazare next weekend. This is new and is made in europe. I will try to snap a video and show it to you. We will be trying it for the first time so... anyways, I'll let you know but it seems very affordable compared to a Silo. Also, many producers use a chain block with 1 ton bag which sits on top of the hopper and they are good to go for an entire day with roughly 20 000taps so it's cheap and very easy to set up. If you can make the trip to st-lazare next week-end, comme and see us on May 17-18-19.

Talk to you soon,
Sam

A first today in my brief 9 year maple career- bought some equipment that is actually new.

Signed on the dotted line today for a 2.5 x 8 CDL pellet arch. Still working on the pans for the new arch.

Chris from maple guys has been great to deal with. Nice early order discount.

Lots to figure out between now and delivery (silo feed vs. hopper, how to finally get real power to the sugarhouse) but very psyched to give this rig some 8% to boil...

-E

[Mark]

[QUOTE=sam1234;225382]Hi Eric,

I am glad to see you made the deal with Chris.
We will be presenting a vacuum feeder for small units at the open house in st.lazare next weekend. This is new and is made in europe. I will try to snap a video and show it to you. We will be trying it for the first time so... anyways, I'll let you know but it seems very affordable compared to a Silo. Also, many producers use a chain block with 1 ton bag which sits on top of the hopper and they are good to go for an entire day with roughly 20 000taps so it's cheap and very easy to set up. If you can make the trip to st-lazare next week-end, comme and see us on May 17-18-19.

Talk to you soon,



A ton of pellets is equal to 118 gallons of #2 heating oil. With 20,000 taps can you go all day on that?

[sam1234]

Hi Mark,

A 4x15 Sirocco will produce roughly 40 gal. US of syrup per hour concentrating at 18brix.
It will burn 288 lbs of pellet per hour.
So, with one ton imperial (2200lbs), it will produce roughly 300gal. of syrup per ton.

One drum(32 gal imperial) will cost +/- 21$ per drum of pellet figuring pellet at 190$/ton.


[QUOTE=sam1234;225382]Hi Eric,

I am glad to see you made the deal with Chris.
We will be presenting a vacuum feeder for small units at the open house in st.lazare next weekend. This is new and is made in europe. I will try to snap a video and show it to you. We will be trying it for the first time so... anyways, I'll let you know but it seems very affordable compared to a Silo. Also, many producers use a chain block with 1 ton bag which sits on top of the hopper and they are good to go for an entire day with roughly 20 000taps so it's cheap and very easy to set up. If you can make the trip to st-lazare next week-end, comme and see us on May 17-18-19.

Talk to you soon,



A ton of pellets is equal to 118 gallons of #2 heating oil. With 20,000 taps can you go all day on that?

[sam1234]

I agree with Jamie.
It is very important to avoid breaking pellets during conveying and these works good!


Google Chore Time they make flex augers that would work excellent for moving pellets into the sugar house.We used them in are hog barns,worked great and trouble free.

[spud]

I really don't know much about pellet evaporators. Someone was telling me the other day that you can save a lot of money using pellets verse oil. What is the real difference in cost per gallon? I have oil heat in my house but I also have a pellet stove. I could run my pellet stove alone and heat my whole house but there is no savings in money. I just find it hard to believe there is a big savings on pellets verse oil when it comes to boiling sap. What am I missing?

Spud

[tuckermtn]

for me it is not about saving money vs. oil, it is the convience factor of oil while using a product that is produced locally in an industry that puts food on my table every day.

[maple flats]

I think the most of the pellet savings comes with bulk pellet delivery and not bagged, by the ton. For a pellet fired evaporator of any size you will need a funnel bottom grain bin on legs. Then a truck will fill it by auger and you will feed the evaporator by an auger off the bottom of the bin. Pellets this way are far cheaper. I have heard the pellet evaporators run about 1/3 to 1/2 the fuel cost of oil and they run rather quiet, an oil rig roars. My plans call for a pellet rig when I decide wood is too much for me.

[Mark]

Do the pellets have some type of binder added to them to remain stable in the hopper? I tried pellets in my rig and had some bags left over that had very tiny holes in them. The moisture from the air turned them back into sawdust and the bags burst.

[PerryFamily]

All I know is that I am psyched that a producer (tucker mountain ) has one of these rigs so close to me. At this point it is a little out of reach money wise but I will have one in the next few years. Cant wait to hear ( or possibly see ) the way they operate and how the numbers work out.
I was told by CDL that they make syrup for around $.80 /gallon, or approx half the cost of oil. I feel like if you have to buy wood, cut it, split it and stack it....the pellet rig is almost as cost effective as wood?
All the benefits of oil while using a domestically produced product....win win.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Pretty common for oil to be under .25 gal of oil to make a gallon of syrup. At 3.36 for oil that would be .84. For the cost of a pellet boiler 4 cents a gallon isn't going to save you enough money to cover the difference.

[spud]

I have to agree with you Thad. I see no reason to spend a lot of money switching to a pellet evaporator when there seems to be very little to no savings at all. I also think that the price of pellets will increase in time making it a waste of time to own one. Like I said in another thread I own a pellet stove in my home plus have oil heat. My pellet stove cost the same to run as oil (maybe a little more)and it is far more inconvenient to run. I just see no need to buy a pellet evaporator over an oil evaporator. It's only going to take a season for someone to find out for sure.

Spud

[PerryFamily]

To each his own for sure...but I personally would rather support a local business ( 2 pellet manufactures less that an hr from me ), which uses local loggers, truckers and provides lots of jobs and revenue locally than support big oil. I dont buy oil to heat my home for the same reasons. I buy locally harvested firewood.
As far as cost, CDL told me a comparable oil rig ( high efficiency I assume??) was $3000 less, which granted $3k is $3k.
Again, I only am repeating what I was told. I have no experience personally with them . Who knows, after seeing how tuckers experience goes I may just change my mind. Just my opinion.

[tuckermtn]

this is going to be an open book experiment. I will happily share my numbers on here and folks are welcome to stop over and check it out. Hopefully others can learn from my mistakes and/or my successes.

I will admit I could have purchased or made an oil fired evaporator for quite a bit less than the pellet arch I bought. Again, I did not make the decision to run pellets based stricktly on the numbers.

This is by no means a slight to those who run oil, but I just couldn't get excited about saying "Hey, come check out my new oil fired evaporator". I work in the forest products industry in New Hampshire and my pellets will come from less than 60 miles from my house. I know half a dozen loggers who provide that pellet mill with bole chips. And the sawdust used in their pellet process is provided by many of the sawmills that are members of the forest products association that I work for.

"Local wood, local good" is the bumper sticker that I have on my truck...trying to walk the walk...

-Eric

[sugaringman85]

First off I would like to say congratulations to Eric for the purchase!

Second: Thad and Spud I think you both are thinking about current prices of pellets and the way oil prices are currently. As Eric said earlier in this thread it is not about the price difference. Its about burning a renewable resource for his fuel. As involved as Eric is in the forest industry I would much rather purchase a pellet evap vs a oil burning one knowing that I am supporting an industry that has supported my whole career. (granted it isn't that long of a career yet, but has been a great one) some day it will be significantly cheaper to run pellets than oil. If i ever have to choose another source of heating for my evaporator it will be pellets.

[spud]

I have never met Eric but he sounds like a great person. If Eric is happy with his pellet evaporator then I am truly happy for him. Wanting to support your local company's is nice but not always best. I don't think pellet prices will just come down in the future. What I think is pellets will rise and fall in price based on oil prices. I think it's great to hear of people using all sorts of different heating methods. My original question was asking the cost differences between oil and pellets because a friend told me pellets were much better (and I question that). Eric did say it is not about saving money that caused him to go with a pellet evaporator. If a person is looking for the best bang for his buck then a pellet evaporator might not be the way to go. Please also understand that when you buy oil you are supporting local business also. I have many friends working in Alaska on the North slope pumping 600,000 barrels a day down the pipeline. If it was not for the yuppies in the lower 48 we could be pumping 3-4 million barrels everyday.

Spud

[Dill]

I've been interested in the pellet evaps as well. I think down the road I'll be leaning in this direction for the push button operation without oil.
However I when I was at the Hydepark maple school this spring I was talking to a guy at lunch who said they've had fires with a couple pellet operations. I have no real info, I didn't get his name.
I have a couple clients with pellet furnaces that are really impressive, and I think once bulk delivery catches on the price will come down. There just isn't enough being used for competition.

[Mark]

I have never met Eric but he sounds like a great person. If Eric is happy with his pellet evaporator then I am truly happy for him. Wanting to support your local company's is nice but not always best. I don't think pellet prices will just come down in the future. What I think is pellets will rise and fall in price based on oil prices. I think it's great to hear of people using all sorts of different heating methods. My original question was asking the cost differences between oil and pellets because a friend told me pellets were much better (and I question that). Eric did say it is not about saving money that caused him to go with a pellet evaporator. If a person is looking for the best bang for his buck then a pellet evaporator might not be the way to go. Please also understand that when you buy oil you are supporting local business also. I have many friends working in Alaska on the North slope pumping 600,000 barrels a day down the pipeline. If it was not for the yuppies in the lower 48 we could be pumping 3-4 million barrels everyday.

Spud

I think the peak was about 2 million a day coming down the pipeline. I was up there a few years ago and they were at 900,000 a day so it is dropping fast. At that time they said there was a problem when the velocity slows down in the pipe but I don't know how low they can operate it. Should tap ANWR before the pipeline is shut down.

[spud]

They should drill in ANWR but there is too many outsiders that have put a stop to it. You will not find many Alaskans against ANWR. I sold two homes of mine in Alaska a few years back and had ANWR been open I could have doubled my money. What a shame.

Spud

[wiam]

this is going to be an open book experiment. I will happily share my numbers on here and folks are welcome to stop over and check it out. Hopefully others can learn from my mistakes and/or my successes.

I will admit I could have purchased or made an oil fired evaporator for quite a bit less than the pellet arch I bought. Again, I did not make the decision to run pellets based stricktly on the numbers.

This is by no means a slight to those who run oil, but I just couldn't get excited about saying "Hey, come check out my new oil fired evaporator". I work in the forest products industry in New Hampshire and my pellets will come from less than 60 miles from my house. I know half a dozen loggers who provide that pellet mill with bole chips. And the sawdust used in their pellet process is provided by many of the sawmills that are members of the forest products association that I work for.

"Local wood, local good" is the bumper sticker that I have on my truck...trying to walk the walk...

-Eric

I have to agree. I also sell meat and push the fact the grain that I use is mixed by a small company in the same town as me. It makes a lot of customers feel good.