Need some advice... (vacuum and releaser)

[gentlemanfarmervt]

Gravity is, well, as said before this season i got 1000 taps on and gave it a rest. After getting it up and seeing the first few yields i decided to listen to what everyone had been telling me. Gotta get a vaccum pump!!! So after collecting about 2500 gallons of sap so far ive been eyeing a big vacuum pump. Delaval 84 with the oil reclaimer. Question is how many cfm? (about 65 @ 20") Also, the contiueous releaser, is this a good pair up for 2500-4000 taps potentially. I believe pump is 10hp, and dont really know too much about this. Just wondering if this sounds like something that is going to work for me. What size vacuum supply? about 300' to releaser is needed? Should this be a wet dry? What about a moisture trap, even though the vac. pump is 20' above the releaser and tanks and about 300' away? Also could this pump run two releasers? This might reduce my costs greatly... Any assistance is apprecieated thanks


2013-first year-627 gravity 1" to 4 cage tanks, 400 more across driveway (same setup)
1998 k2500 hauling 300 gal at a time
all running about 4000' in 1"

[unc23win]

Well if the pump is 65 CFM at 20" you should get a little more vacuum with less CFM requirement I think most Delaval pumps max out at 26" you should get more than 20" with 4000 taps. Every inch over 20 is .5 gallons more sap per tap. I think you'll be fine the only way to get more vacuum is more $ the Indiana pumps are $3000-$6000 http://www.harrissugarbush.com/vacuum.htm and others capable of higher vacuum are in the same price range.

Your line running to the releaser is dry you want the diameter as big as possible in order to not limit CFMs so with 300' it’s a matter of $ if the releaser was right by the pump you would want 2" or 3" whatever the fitting is on the releaser.

You also want a moisture trap with big diameter pipe so you don’t limit the CFMs there. The vacuum line goes from the pump to the moisture trap and then to the releaser.

You can for sure run two releasers. Base that on the CFMs so if you have 3000 taps on one releaser and 1000 on the other your total is 4000 your good. Not sure if you are doing a wet/dry line system or not but if you do that you would want boosters the booster will help you get the most out of your vacuum by maintaining vacuum levels further into your sugar bush.

[gentlemanfarmervt]

thanks again for the help, ive located an older delaval 84 10hp vac. and hope to flood it and shim as needed, also found larger releaser to suit my expansion to 4000 taps. If ive got this right, it goes, 2"-black main (dry vacuum supply)-2"-moisture trap-releaser(which is 1 1/2") Or should i go with 3" pvc to the releaser? its actually about 260 lin. ft. away...

[maple2]

10hp may be an overkill for that many taps. rule of thumb is 1hp per 1000. though 1.5 works better for me. we went to high vac. on our small bush, this year. from 20in to 27in. got 60% more sap

[BreezyHill]

Delaval 73 with a 2hp maxes out with the needle quivering at 29"...used pump from a 38 cow dairy. The trick is using good pump oil. The old surge oil had a special additive that polished the pump. Use delaval pump oil...ATF(auto transmission oil is designed for the clutches in a transmition...not for pumps. Oils are very specific. Walk into a snowmobile supply store. There are atleast 5 different oils. Ash less, mineral, synthetic, petrolium base, and blended. Is it designed to cool and burn slow or lube and burn quick... High Ash oil will eat a pump alive. Pumps get hot and need an oil that will handle heat and not break down. Delaval oil is good. no ATF...its a high pressure oil ...Tractor Supply oil is low quality...vapors very easily under high vac's heat condition and goes out the exhaust. Check into sap ladders. I run vac over 2000' on a 73 delaval...no problems. You'll like the 84 good unit. You could put a smaller pulley on the 84 to reduce the cfms and get more longevity. Good Luck...my dad was a surge dealer for several years.

[Thad Blaisdell]

So for 4000 taps you are going to go the cheap route? So you are doing everything you can to make MORE syrup, and then you are going to go with the cheapest vacuum pump that you can find. This never ceases to amaze me. You are willing to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on all the other equipment and tubing that is needed and then go buy the cheapest old farm vacuum that you can get your hands on? Go buy a real pump and a real releaser and make more syrup. The gain will pay for both and then some.

[TheMapleMoose]

Don't be afraid to get closer to 2cfm per 100 taps. If you've got some dryline distance to the releaser and plan to run two of them the extra CFM will come in handy. Especially if you've got some leaks and plan to use a sap ladder. p.s. don't use a sap ladder unless absolutely no other solution. We've got a 3hp Airablo flood, with a cooler and I definitely recommend this pump. There was one day we were under 27.5" and i went out to find 3 taps and a 5/16" line open. A busch claw pump may be a good option as well but someone with some experience with them may be able to speak better of the performance. If you want to maximize production in your woods don't skimp on your pump.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

I agree 100% with Thad and Maple Moose. If you are going to invest in a new woods, then invest in a pump and releaser specifically designed for maple production. If you do this, it is like money in the bank. With 4000 taps, it will pay you back the first year, then every year after that is profit. Neil

[BreezyHill]

Read Steve Childs latest paper on cfm thru 1" tubing. This proves what many have noticed for years...no matter how big the pump, after 500' of tubing a 100 cfm and a 20 cfm are statistically equal. If you have money to burn... then so be it...but if you have other areas to spend it.... like larger tubing, replacing tapes and drops annually, cleaning tubing to remove sludge, etc. then dont buy the 3k pump. Keep the money in the bank. Old saying: " Watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves."

Vacuum boosters actually don't boost the vacuum; but allow the surges in the sap flow to be evened out so that vacuum can be conducted in the remaining empty space in the tubing. A surge that fills the line to capacity greatly reduces the vacuum to the end of the tubing.

The use of a y will increase your vacuum more than a booster tank by keeping the flow of sap more even than the use of a tee. The tee basically stops the flow of sap at the junction instead of introducing more flow to the main flow.

Think of the tubing as an interstate: on ramps introduce slower flow to a higher speed flow...the higher speed may slow slightly to carry the slow up to speed. In a tee the slow flow must change direction then gain speed...this causes mini surges of sap...causing poorer vacuum.

Ladders work...as long as they are setup correctly. BUT they will never be as efficient as a 2% or better sloped line. If it is a matter of not tapping trees because they are below grade...then build the ladder and the sap will flow. I have been very successful at getting ladders to work, but my father was a Surge Dealer and an industrial arts teacher. He taught me about vacuum and Dr Tim and Steve are doing great research on vacuum systems, tubing and sap.

Sizing the tubing, slope & supports, and wet/dry system are the keys to vacuum to the tap hole. Efficiency of the releaser and the ability to clean should be priority followed by fewer moving parts, when looking at releasers. I cant count the times I have heard guys say their releaser screwed up because they forgot to lube it right, or a bushing squeezed a shaft and it failed to dump.

Ben

[DrTimPerkins]

...but if you have other areas to spend it.... like larger tubing, replacing tapes and drops annually,......

I agree pretty much with everything you have said, except the part about replacing drops annually. While that strategy is the most likely to result in the highest sap yields, there are VERY few instances where it results in a producer net profit (meaning money in your pocket as opposed to money in the equipment dealers pocket) due to the high cost of the materials and labor making them, installing them, and removing used drops from the woods. We have a paper we're working on now that describes this in detail, but the short story is that if you are NOT going to use CV spout adapters or CV spouts (in which case there isn't a great need to replace drops at regular intervals), then the typical rotation time for drop replacement to achieve the highest net profit is 3 yrs. If you have baseline yields that are very high (25+ gal/tap) and you place a really high value on your sap ($0.50+), then maybe every 2 yrs. This presupposes that you are using new spouts (of some kind) each year.