Old CV's vs. New CV's

[220 maple]

I use the old style CV's with a stubby, my question for the guys using the new ones. When do you change them out? Now after the end of the season or right before you tap next season, or some combination of both? Do you have to use a single handed tubing tool to put them on the dropline? Seems to me it will require extra time to change them? Has anyone heard if they are going to make the old style CV's with ploycarbonate clear plastic?

Just Curious
Mark 220 Maple

[rchase]

you cut the spout off when your pulling taps and change them when your tapping next year. they do take extra time but the ball wont come out like the old style.

[sapman]

Think I'll go around next winter and install the new ones, as it looks like it will require a tool. To me, no comparison to the old ones. New ones win hands down, for me. Never had such a great year maintaining vac levels.

[Maplewalnut]

Agree with sapman. And would add that we found leakers in half the time it normally took. Will use nothing but cv2 next year

[red maples]

I personally don't like the new ones. (CV2) take longer to install, take longer to remove, had 5 times as many leakers than the stubby adapter style, had several tips come out in the hole and had to fish them out with a piece of wire, I only installed 100 of them to see if I would like them and I really don't. I don't see what the big deal is??? No offense to anyone obviously its just one person's opinion but they are not for me. I will install the stubbies before next season. and I will stick with the stubby adapter!!! but again thats just me!!!

And you don't need a tool to install them. but I do recommend you get the new universal T that will accept the open tube or the stubby. so you can close up your system during the off season. oir you can get lappierre's ring plug. see bascom's catalog.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

when i first installed them i didnt think i was going to like them, but now the season is over i have changed my mind. 1 easier to find leaks 2 no push offs on hard freezes 3 easier to remove at end of season

[Russell Lampron]

I haven't used any of the cv2's yet but if they are like other seasonal spouts that I have seen no tool is needed to connect them to the drop. When you tap the spout into the tree you can then push the drop line onto the spout by hand. The barbsI want to try some of them next season as it sounds like they are less prone to leakage.

[DrTimPerkins]

...had several tips come out in the hole and had to fish them out with a piece of wire,....

If this happens, I would recommend that you just leave the tip in the hole. The hole never fills in, so the tip won't go anywhere. It won't hurt the tree in any way to leave it -- it will just be encapsulated by the tree. You may do more damage to the tree trying to get it out.

[DrTimPerkins]

Seems like it is mostly a matter of personal preference.

General observations from what we've seen are that the original CV (like any Stubby-style adapter) is quicker to tap in (as long as you have Stubbys already), but the CV2 has fewer possible places for vacuum leaks, and that the CV2 (like many polycarbonate spouts) seems to "grip" the tree better. A good part of our woods was tapped with the CV2. We spent almost no time in the woods this season after tapping in and getting the initial leaks fixed, which is quite unusual.

In terms of production.....we don't have all the numbers in yet (sap is still running), but in general yields from the original CV and the CV2 are running neck-and-neck. Different seasons could give different results though. This has been a "cold" season for the most part.

[sugartree310]

We used 3000 of the CV 2 this year and we think they are a huge improvement over the CV and stubby system , spent so much less time chasing leaks this year, they seat much better in tree , we will use them every year now , just our opinion . They are still running !!!!

[unc23win]

I like the CV2 over the CV1 just for the peace of mind that there will be fewer leaks. I only put on a few CV2s experimenting mostly. I have about 300 CV1s I only found one that needed put back together after a long freeze up in the middle of the season. Most of them I am finding as I am untapping now are HARD to get apart.

I am planning on putting the CV2s on about 1000 taps next year. The tubing is 4 years this year so I am going to try CV2s for 1 maybe 2 years and then replace the drops and start over. Having read all the research and reports on tubing replacement and check valves I am really looking forward to finding out about increased sap yields for myself. I found it easier to put the tubing on the CV2 and then put into the tap hole rather than put the spout in the put the tubing on. I might go around and put them all on before I tap to save a little time when time might matter a little more. My only change would be to make the line more like a barb just for peace of mind that the tubing will stay put.

[TheMapleMoose]

This our 2nd season with about 1000 cv1. We put out 50 cv2 on new taps this year. We had some cv2 leakers but they are unbelievably easy to find...whether you can fix it or not is another issue. I had to pull reset 35 or 40 cv1 this year that were loose and leaking between the cv and the tree.... And separating the stubby and cv1 is a 2 plier deal, and we don't drive them together. In general we like the cv2, but will most likely wait until the stubbys lives are over to switch completely.

[sapman]

And you don't need a tool to install them.

Maybe tapping and installing the spout first, then pushing the drop on is an easier way to go. Problem is, if I assume that is correct, and it's not, I'll be wasting a lot of time during tapping. I know the cv2 goes on 30P and similar tubing easily, but I'm using the Flex on my drops, and inserting the spout into the drop by hand is pretty tough.

[red maples]

I tried tapping them in first and putting the tubing on and you can loose the seat on some. so what I did was stick it on and just tap it against the tree and it went on easy. I have never had a CV1 adapter come loose out of a stubby. not sure why every one is having trouble with that?? out of 100 CV2 I had 5 or 6 that had to be tapped back in after one of the hard freezes and 250 cv1 and only had 1 loose all season and it was a cold season like the DR said.

[Dill]

That's what I've done with the CVs Brad. I know its contrary to the instructions. But I've been using the clearance first year CVs for a few years now and can count on 2 hands how many I've broken. And I don't have the separation problems either. Drill hole, put the adapter on the stubbie, pound it in as one unit. I end up using 2 pliers to separate them when I pull taps.

[Mike in NY]

I have never broken off a tap in the tree untill I used the cv2's. Out of the first 10 taps I pulled I broke 3. After that I used a set of pliars to rotate the the cv a 1/4 or 1/2 turn before attempting removal. Think I broke 1 more tap after that; this is a good thing ,right?getting the tap to seal so tight they are hard to remove??

[red maples]

That's what I've done with the CVs Brad. I know its contrary to the instructions. But I've been using the clearance first year CVs for a few years now and can count on 2 hands how many I've broken. And I don't have the separation problems either. Drill hole, put the adapter on the stubbie, pound it in as one unit. I end up using 2 pliers to separate them when I pull taps.

no sorry I should have type that a little clearer I was talking about the CV2's.... but forthe CV adapter with stubby I tap in the CV adapter in the tree just like any other spile the put the stubby on 2 quick taps and move on quick done. As for the CV2's I start the tubing then tap it against the tree. the hammer it in. With the CV1s I have never broken 1 I have never even had trouble with fingers or the ball coming out nothing.

[sapman]

So far (400 removed), we haven't had one cv2 break in the tree. None my broke on installation, either. To remove, we are using the multi sized removal tool made by the man in Syracuse. Pricey, but works great. And so far my wife has done them all.

[Jeff E]

Just to add to the confusion, I have CV with stubbys, and had 0 leaks attributed to the CV or stubbys in 3 seasons.

Jeff E

[sapman]

Just to add to the confusion, I have CV with stubbys, and had 0 leaks attributed to the CV or stubbys in 3 seasons.

Jeff E

Jeff, I've heard of this, too, so I'm not surprised. I've envied those of you with these results, cause we were always tightening them up, especially after a deep freeze. I probably would've left the stubbies if I had your kind of luck!

[steve J]

I am converting all my standard spouts to CV2's. I am going to rework the lines this summer and change some lines that are older. Is it ok to put heads on at this time since I am going to have to install all the drops as I reconfigure the lines? In reading this thread I am left confused as to rather I need a tool to install these or not?

[steve J]

Going thru the Leader catalog tonight I what I think is the old style check valve with a stubby #4711 and than I see a clear style #4712 is the ckear one what you consider to be the new style?

[DrTimPerkins]

Just to add to the confusion, I have CV with stubbys, and had 0 leaks attributed to the CV or stubbys in 3 seasons.

We've had minimal heaving with the original CV (stubby + adapter)....certainly no more than other spouts (and in some cases far less). With the CV2 (and most other polycarbonate spouts....with a few exceptions), we've had none heave out of the tree or pop off the dropline. This was probably the best year we've ever had in terms of vacuum. Once we were tapped in and repairs made, there was extremely few problems. Vacuum came up and stayed up all season long....and the main pumps stayed on the entire time.

[sapman]

I am converting all my standard spouts to CV2's. I am going to rework the lines this summer and change some lines that are older. Is it ok to put heads on at this time since I am going to have to install all the drops as I reconfigure the lines? In reading this thread I am left confused as to rather I need a tool to install these or not?

I think it's best to install new spouts in winter. If you use a pretty rigid tubing, I think they go on rather easily. But I'm using a flexible one for drops, so I plan to use a tool. If can get by without a tool, so much the better.

[Maplewalnut]

We had no problem at all this year putting cv2 on by hand. I drill holes, my wife and 13 yr old put taps on tubing and my 11 yr old tapped. (Except for the few he couldn't reach) lol

[mc-vi]

I'm wondering about the new cv. I did not try them but I have 2 000 of them, brand new in a box. When I put the three side in my mouth and put vacuum in them, the ball is leaking. We feel the air going through the ball system and it wont keep the vaccum for no more then 2 seconds if I block with my tongue. The old cv (black one) is not leaking like that. I wonder if it is my batch that is not good? Did anybody else noticed? I tested at least 20 of them and none were good (and i never noticed any black one that was leaking). I wanted to put those for next year but if they are all like that, I will probably stick with the standard policarbonate.

[TheMapleMoose]

Mc-vi,
We ended up with about 30 cv2 in the woods this year to finish up a section we ran out of stubbys on. We wash under pressure and when the cv2s were popped out of the tree they all sealed and didn't leak. I had some cv1s that leaked a bit but they were pretty gummed up. So I didn't notice that problem with mine but I plan on putting 500 more cv2s out next year and will probably have a better sample. Did anyone else notice any problems with the cv2s? (Other than the ball and tip staying in the taphole)

[twobears1224]

i had 330 cv2's in use this spring on flex dropline tubing thur out the season i found 18 droplines that had pulled off somehow..four of those where on the last tree of the line.also when,i washed my lines i found many that leaked around the spout where the dropline was hooked on.i did like how they sealed in the taphole.i bearly tapped them in and they seemed to seal very well and not leak or pop out in anyway.
what i,de really like to see is a clear cv that hooks on a stubby spout but has the cv ball on the end like the cv 2's.

[TheMapleMoose]

I asked David from Leader if they were developing a clear polycarbonate cv1 and all he really said was that they were having trouble getting the polycarbonate and nylon stubby to stay sealed together. I see Lapierre makes a clear polycarbonate spout adapter for their stubby, does that system work well?

[sapman]

. I see Lapierre makes a clear polycarbonate spout adapter for their stubby, does that system work well?[/QUOTE]

I used them in '12. Tons of leaks after freezes, for me anyway.

[doocat]

I used 3000 of the clear poly adaptor with stubby this year and after a few days of leak repair had the best year we have had as far a vacuum. No freeze outs and no seal problems. 27 inches the entire season. They were spouts from DG.

Craig

[maple flats]

I'm wondering about the new cv. I did not try them but I have 2 000 of them, brand new in a box. When I put the three side in my mouth and put vacuum in them, the ball is leaking. We feel the air going through the ball system and it wont keep the vaccum for no more then 2 seconds if I block with my tongue. The old cv (black one) is not leaking like that. I wonder if it is my batch that is not good? Did anybody else noticed? I tested at least 20 of them and none were good (and i never noticed any black one that was leaking). I wanted to put those for next year but if they are all like that, I will probably stick with the standard policarbonate.
Testing them is good, but putting them in your mouth negates any benefit. You are then putting bacteria directly in the tap hole. You will see no improvement that way. When I saw one of my tappers hold a CV in his mouth, he got a stern warning and that CV was disposed of. The human mouth is full of bacteria. If you want to test them, find a better way.Now, how did you detect a leak? With the tree end in your mouth and vacuum on the other end, that is how they should leak, you want the sap to flow into the drop. Am I understanding what you meant to say?

[mc-vi]

I did not install them on the line. So when I tested them it wasn't installed on line. Just the tree side in my mouth, put vacuum in it and sealed them with my tongue. We can feel the ball is leaking. I tested 20 of them just because I was worry. The old ones keep there vac. but not the CV2 I have. I'm aware that I must not put bacteria on them if I tap them. But since the ball don't seem to seal correctly, I just wonder if I have a bad batch or if they work even with a little leak or if they only do as good as other clear spouts (as the ball isn't sealing correctly). Acer center result on check valve and regular clear spouts showed the same result 2 (or 3) years in a row at 2 different operation. This year they tested black vs white. White performed 7% better than black (all new spouts). So what I thinks is that clear spout = black cv and CV2 should be better than black cv and clear spouts but only if the ball seal correctly.

[DrTimPerkins]

Acer center result on check valve and regular clear spouts showed the same result 2 (or 3) years in a row at 2 different operation. This year they tested black vs white.

Actually that is not quite correct. The first year they found no difference in yield. However, it appears that this result was due to the fact that they used drop lines that had been cleaned, then stored in a dry garage for several years. When you do that, the tubing reaches a very dry stage that kills most microbes so in essence, they compared new spouts on new drop lines to new CV spouts on new drop line. We would not expect any differences in this case.

In the second study they compared new spouts on used, but alcohol cleaned drop lines to new CV spouts on used, alcohol cleaned drop lines in two study sites. In one site they found a significantly higher sap yield with CV spouts, even after alcohol cleaning. No difference was found in the second site, which had extremely low yields for unexplained reasons.

In addition, none of these studies had any replication, so technically no statistics are possible on any of the results, and no conclusions can be drawn from any of these studies.

[spud]

I was just looking on the Leader site this morning and could not find the new CV2 spouts. I thought they had a big write up on these spouts on their site. Did I just not see them? How much will they be selling for this year?

Spud

[maple flats]

You're right. They for some reason do not show them, but then the online catalog is dated summer 2012. While they were available in limited quantities then, they must not have had them in that catalog. It's hard to figure why a major player in the maple business would be so far out dated on the web site. This means you can still buy everything at the old price? I'll bet not.
To answer your question, I ordered 1500 CV2's at $.40 each if memory serves me (it often fails to), then I was discounted during the May sale, like 10% I think.

[western mainer]

They put it under Plastic 5/16" Tubing Fittings.
http://www.leaderevaporator.com/c-17-plastic-516-tubing-fittings.aspx
Brian

[spud]

Thanks guy's.

Spud