Homemade RO suggestions

[Diesel Pro]

Looking at a relatively simple setup but using above average components and mid level performance. This will be somehwat of a rush job for me as it's 11th hr and the sap is starting to flow. I have 88 taps in right now. This may (read as likely will) grow next year so I want to build a solid foundation. I'll be servicing the sap on weekends so I'll have limited time to "cook" hence the desire for a RO machine.

I figure the heart and soul would be the pump. Looking at Procon units. Worth the stainless over brass? Does a guy want clamp on or bolt on?

Clamp on offerings 100gph and 232gph

Bolt on offerings 80 gph and 232gph

Preferrably I would use my Honda EU 2000 to drive this machine and want to steer clear of max load. If not I could take my EU6500 up for the season, but that's just one more bulky item to get in the way. The 232 gph pumps use a 3/4HP motor, but what sort of actual load is on these both starting and running? What sort of motor is required for these pumps? Are these 1725rpm or 3450 rpm farm type motors or are there special small motors used specifically for these?


On to the membranes:


Several simple residential or should I load up a couple larger SS housed units?

Plumb in series or parallel? I've seen it done both ways.


At present my storage is limited to 2) 65 gallon tanks in my "sap buggy" and I anticipate that these will be full to mostly full when I arrive on the weekend. I'll also have I figure I'll need something like a 30 gallon barreel to catch and hold some permeate. I could either recirc back into one of my buggy tanks or I could add another tank for concentrate. Using the buggy and recirc would be nice, but it ties the machine up from collecting so I'd lean towards another tank.



Am I starting out too big? Maybe a setup like horodskib has?

My fear is getting a good flow week and having 130 gallons on the buggy plus another potential 160-200 gallons in the 40 Homer buckets in the woods.

Sap buggy:

7530

[not_for_sale]

Pump: the cost of the motor is the issue. 48YZ motors (clamp on) in higher wattage are expensive - 56C (Bolt on) are cheaper but coupler could get expensive. Procon has specs on what is needed, but the 1/3 HP is not big enough for 200 GPH and 250 PSI.

You want to continue this? Then I would choose a 40 inch vessel and a 40 inch membrane. Not much more expensive than 4 residential membranes, but much more powerful.

However, you have to remember, it will work with ONE pump, for long life a feed pump and a recirc pump makes sense though. The recirc pump needs to be able to take the pressure of the feed on its housing ( not easy to do for cheap).

Parallel or series doesn't matter if you go with one 40 inch membrane, it doesn't matter for residential setup either if you recirculate through a tank. If you want to feed your evaporator directly series would make sense.

I would get at least a barrel to store your permeate. You are going to need it for washes - remember the membranes cant take any chlorine, so you cant wash with city water or any chlorinated source.

[Diesel Pro]

Just a recap to get this all into one post.



Here's the rundown of my initial order. I ordered everything through Freshwatersystems.com I found the customer service to be poor at best, but eventually I started working with the men there (Cory and John) after frustration trying to find missing orings for the membrane housing had me calling Hydronix for specs. Hydronix called Freshwater and Cory got involved. I had my orings the next day. Freshwater was not the least expensive, but what they did offer was one stop shopping with the exception of misc plumbing fittings etc. My total here is just over $1000 which is not bad. I had the filter housing on hand and added a boost pump to the feed which I also had on hand. Later I'll try to detail the project further and take some more pics of the latest config.

The red stuff was errors. There was a drive coupler in with the pump so now I have an extra.

I later went to this flow meter:

Hydronix Flowmeter Adjustable Panel Mnt 0.1~1GPM - 1.00...........55.62
1/4" MNPT


Having a .5-5gpm meter on the permeate line was well past 5x over scale. The replacement did not need to be adjustable. I only ordered the adjustable version as I thought it would match the other one, but I've found this whole flow meter thing to be a mess as the print specs do not match.





Product Qty Each Sub Total
________________________________________
Procon NEMA 48YZ RO/Carbonator Motor 3/4 HP 115/230V -
Part # H714 1 $219.99
21.25 $219.99
________________________________________
Procon Pump Brass With 1143 Bronze Coupling 240 GPH 1/2 NPT 170 PSI Relief -
Part # 104B240F11BA 1 $220.74
3.70 $220.74
________________________________________
Hydronix Adjustable Panel Mount Flowmeter - 0.5-5.0; 1/2" MNPT
Part # AFM-055 1 $53.62
1.20 $53.62
________________________________________
Procon V-Band Clamp -
Part # 1113 1 $6.50
2.00 $6.50
________________________________________
Procon Coupling Slotted Rotor C/O -
Part # 1143 1 $5.73
.06 $5.73
________________________________________
Filmtec XLE-4040 Tap Water Extra Low Energy 2600 GPD RO Membrane Element -
Part # XLE-4040 1 $250.11
6.00 $250.11
________________________________________
Stainless Steel Membrane Housing 4" x 40" 1/2" Feed -
Part # MHSS-4040-1212 1 $199.99
15.00 $199.99
________________________________________
Hydronix Panel Mount Flowmeter - 0.5-5.0; 1/2" MNPT
Part # PFM-055 1 $29.72
1.20 $29.72
________________________________________
Mounting Bracket - SINGLE Housing METAL for 10" & 20" Big Blue® Housings -
Part # FM-25W 1 $17.00
2.70 $17.00
________________________________________
NOSHOK Bottom Mount 2.5" Water Pressure Gauge 0-300 psi, S.S., 1/4" NPT -
Part # 25-901-300 2 $22.14
.85 $44.28




Here is my machine. This was before I added the booster pump to push through the filter. A real must have:

11350

[saekeaton64]

Source: www.freshwatersystems.com
1- flimtec xle 2540 850 GPD =175.00
1- 2.5"X40" Stainless housing =134.99
1- 3/4HP procon pump motor = 219.99
1- 10" Filter housing = 10.28
2- .5-5gph rotameters = 59.44
2- 300psi gauges = 33.94

Source: www.wateranywhere.com

1-240gph procon pump w/170psi preset =162.00

Total = 795.64 + hoses and fittings.

The reduction factor on the membrane with 36 deg sap is 2.6, 850gpd/2.6=326.92gpd
326.92 gpd/24hrs-day= 13.62 gallons per hour.
These calculations are based on 100psi feed pressure, as feed pressure is increased production will increase.

The 240gph pump will give you around 4 gph at pressure, the 2.5" membranes are rated for max. 6gpm flow.
You could add another tower if you wanted without a great need for recirculation if setup in series.

[Diesel Pro]

Awesome thanks for the listing!

This would be great if I could pop up to the cabin start the RO and have material to run in the evaporator in an hour or so.

So does adding the second membrane/housing double productivity or is there a factor involved? I'd assume the GPH would drop a bit, but we'd have 2 cracks at removing water.

Aslo I wonder about setting this up in a 2 wheel cart/dolly? Unistrut for attaching etc.

[not_for_sale]

Source: www.freshwatersystems.com
1- flimtec xle 2540 850 GPD =175.00
1- 2.5"X40" Stainless housing =134.99


Just to throw a small wrench into this. The XLE 4040 is 240 on ebay (new) and there is a guy on ebay selling a 4040 housing for $80. Same money - triple production.

Also - hoses and fittings - especially fittings - are expensive. You can use PEX-AL-PEX for up to 300 PSI.

[not_for_sale]

Permeate barrel will be a must. No running water at the cabin only creek water. Thinking I need to transfer concentrate to another barrel as well.

If you get an old electric water heater as your permeate barrel - set it higher than the evaporator - run a thermosiphon through your stack and you will have hot and clean water! :o

[Diesel Pro]

Just to throw a small wrench into this. The XLE 4040 is 240 on ebay (new) and there is a guy on ebay selling a 4040 housing for $80. Same money - triple production.

Also - hoses and fittings - especially fittings - are expensive. You can use PEX-AL-PEX for up to 300 PSI.

pex al pex as in Kitec? I should have a bit of 1/2" from radiant flor systems.


The 4" membranes can get me to a more standardized pipe thread also. I could conceivably have all 1/2" NPT with the exception of the gauges which could be bushed.

[not_for_sale]

Yes, 1/2 kitec. Minimum burst pressure is at 900 psi and 300 psi long term fatigue.
It also takes standard pex fittings - which other sizes won't.

[Diesel Pro]

So if I go up to a 4" membrane my production in GPH (flow) will go up?

Would I stick with 40" long or could I drop to 21" to make more compact?

[not_for_sale]

The membrane rating is based on square footage. The membrane is rolled up. A 4040 has about 85 sqft. XLE 4040 is rated at 2600 gpd, so with cold sap about 1000 gpd.

[not_for_sale]

XLE means xtra low energy. Rated at 100 psi and capable of taking 600 psi.

[saekeaton64]

If you chose to go with the 4040 membrane, I think you will have to use a larger pump than the 240gph procon. I looked up the minimum flow rates for the filmtec membranes and the min. concentrate flow rate on the 4040 is 6gpm. The 2540 has a min. of .7 gpm.
http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/dh_0036/0901b803800362e3.pdf

[Diesel Pro]

OK lets see if I have a list of compatible parts here and have made the correct choices:

Pump, motor, clamp, drive coupling:

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5329-procon-nema-48yz-rocarbonator-motor-34-hp-115230v.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-7181-procon-pump-brass-with-1143-bronze-coupling-240-gph-12-npt-170-psi-relief.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5309-procon-v-band-clamp.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5311-procon-coupling-slotted-rotor-co.aspx

The pump was less on water anywhere, but this is one stop shopping.

With the clamp on pump/motor I mount the motor and "hang" the pump from the motor?

Is there any proper orientation as in vertical shaft or horizontal shaft?

I think sticking with 3/4HP is probably best so I can run my small generator w/o strain.

[saekeaton64]

Your list looks to be complete to me, I have seen the pumps mounted both ways. What ever way works best for you.

[Diesel Pro]

Your list looks to be complete to me, I have seen the pumps mounted both ways. What ever way works best for you.

Great thanks again.

Sometimes motor bearings don't like to be mounted with end load is why I ask.

How about membrane housing orientation? Any rules or suggestions there?

Watching for comments on your GPM concerns with the 4" units before I make my move.

[saekeaton64]

They also can be placed either way, the membranes are easy to install in the horizontal position but the system takes up less space and easier to drain in the vertical position.

[saekeaton64]

Sorry, I was looking at the wrong spot in the data sheet. The minimum concentrate flow rate for the xle 4040 is 3gpm. The max feed rate on the xle 4040 is 14gpm. The lowest ratio you could run and still be in spec. would be 3.6:1 which would total 13.8 gpm.

The xle 2540 has a minimum concentrate flow rate of .7gpm, at a 4.42:1 ratio you would still be under the max pump flow rate of 3.8 gpm.

[Diesel Pro]

OK so you are saying that the 2.5 is still the best choice?

Should I look to run 2 in series or stick with single unit/single pass then cook off from there?

[not_for_sale]

There's someone on this forum running two 4040 with a 330 gph pump.

1000 permeate, 4000 concentrate, 5000 gpd total. 208 gpm. And that if you get full specd flow which you won't because the specs assume you feed with permeate. Sap at 2% reduces the flow another 30%.

[saekeaton64]

I am only basing the info that I have posted on the spec. sheets and technical data from the manufactures, as I have not yet built or used an RO. With that being said, I think with the number of taps you have this year you would be ok with just one membrane. As you expand you can add a second membrane in series (won't cut your flow down like parallel) and maybe later a recirc. pump.
Before you pull the trigger I would maybe let a few more members chime in, as there maybe something that I have missed or messed up on. I would hate for you to base your purchase on only my input and it turn out to be a flop.

[not_for_sale]

Also, the ideal flow rate ratio for the 15 % recovery is 6.7 : 1.

Remember, you can adjust the concentrate valve to achieve that flow ratio. What it essentially means that if you want to run at a higher removal rate than approximately 55 GPH you need a bigger pump or recirculation. I would go with the bigger membrane because if you wish to run it faster you simply get a second PROCON and recirculate.

[Diesel Pro]

Thinking I'd take a 2 wheel hand truck, mount the motor and pump to it low pump up to the filter at the midway point or so then back down to the entry of a 40" membrane with the discharge ports set up top. The membrane housing could be mounted behind the handles but still ahead of the axle.

So if I went to a 4" membrane with the pump that I have chosen I can tune the flow to make it work?


Could you give me a brief explanation of the 6.7 ratio? Does this mean close down the needle valve to get 6.7 times more water than concentrate?

[not_for_sale]

No, the other way around.. Your concentrate flow is higher. You adjust back pressure via needle valve on the concentrate line. Pressure controls permeate flow.

Yes, you can adjust the flow to work with the pump.

[saekeaton64]

I guess I misunderstood the ratio, I thought it went the other way around. I would go with the 4" dia. in that case then.
Thanks, not_for_sale things are a little clearer now.

[mellondome]

If you are looking at a total sap count of 200 gal of 2%.. you do not need 4" membranes. you don't have enough sap to start up the unit!( it will process about 250+ gal /hr) keep it simple and sized for what you are doing like saekeaton64 had listed. You will find that set up as he has listed , you will get closer to 35-40 gph depending on the pressures you run. You need to make sure you create enough permeate to flush the membranes with, and have storage for that. If you start it running while you are collecting, you will be surprised how much difference it will make. Removing 20 gal/hr of water is probably a lot faster than your current rig.

if you want a ready to go unit, take a whole house water R/O system.. throw out the charcoal filter and softener units, and add the procom pump to give you pressure boost. and keep the concentrate.

There are a couple complete step through guides posted on Sugarbush.info.

[Diesel Pro]

Thanks for the info. Found a quick look at a setup on Sugarbush similar to what I'm loking at and built into a cabinet. I might get the cabinet part later.

So I've seen some use the filter pre and post pump. I'd guess with the pressure that the Procon makes I need to go pre pump with the filter? Or can the filter take the psi?

[Diesel Pro]

Also, the ideal flow rate ratio for the 15 % recovery is 6.7 : 1.

Remember, you can adjust the concentrate valve to achieve that flow ratio. What it essentially means that if you want to run at a higher removal rate than approximately 55 hog you need a bigger pump or recirculation. I would go with the bigger membrane because if you wish to run it faster you simply get a second province and recirculate.

I'm not sure just how much I'm going to have just getting started that is the issue. 88 taps in right now with 130 gallons of storage plus 40 5 gallon Homer buckets. I have a ton more trees that I could tap, but my second day of tapping had me selecting what I perceived to be the the sugars over the reds etc.


OK so 6.7 parts concentrate to 1 part permeate would I want to process twice before cooking or is one pass sufficient? Is the 15% recovery considered 15% of the water removed or is there a factor in there that I am missing?

Trying to determine if it would be better to go with a single 4" or a pair of 2.5's.

I'm thinking single pass even if at a lower flow rate would be most efficient rather that trying to recycle into my sap tank to process twice.

Just how much water do I want to remove before I start to cook?

Also does concentrate have any different storage time restrictions than raw sap?

What is 55 hog referring to?

[Diesel Pro]

I ordered the following today:


Membrane and housing 4x40
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3842-filmtec-xle-4040-tap-water-extra-low-energy-2600-gpd-ro-membrane-element.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-7044-stainless-steel-membrane-housing-4-x-40-12-feed.aspx

Pump, motor, clamp, drive coupling:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5329-procon-nema-48yz-rocarbonator-motor-34-hp-115230v.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-7181-procon-pump-brass-with-1143-bronze-coupling-240-gph-12-npt-170-psi-relief.aspx


http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5309-procon-v-band-clamp.aspx


http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5311-procon-coupling-slotted-rotor-co.aspx




Better filter and bracket:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3893-culligan-hd-950-heavy-duty-10-water-filter-housing-w-pr-1-fpt.aspx I actually had one of these here

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-1169-mounting-bracket-single-housing-metal-for-10-20-big-blue-housings.aspx

Filter elements in 5 micron: (hopefuly they fit as they match our whole hose Aqua Pure setup)

http://www.filtersfast.com/Aqua-Pure-AP810-water-filters.asp



Flow meter one of each:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4308-hydronix-panel-mount-flowmeter.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5285-hydronix-adjustable-panel-mount-flowmeter.aspx


psi gauge qty 2:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4567-noshok-bottom-mount-25-water-pressure-gauge-0-300-psi-ss-14-npt.aspx

[not_for_sale]

I ordered the following today:


Membrane and housing 4x40
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3842-filmtec-xle-4040-tap-water-extra-low-energy-2600-gpd-ro-membrane-element.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-7044-stainless-steel-membrane-housing-4-x-40-12-feed.aspx

Pump, motor, clamp, drive coupling:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5329-procon-nema-48yz-rocarbonator-motor-34-hp-115230v.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-7181-procon-pump-brass-with-1143-bronze-coupling-240-gph-12-npt-170-psi-relief.aspx


http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5309-procon-v-band-clamp.aspx


http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5311-procon-coupling-slotted-rotor-co.aspx




Better filter and bracket:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3893-culligan-hd-950-heavy-duty-10-water-filter-housing-w-pr-1-fpt.aspx I actually had one of these here

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-1169-mounting-bracket-single-housing-metal-for-10-20-big-blue-housings.aspx

Filter elements in 5 micron: (hopefuly they fit as they match our whole hose Aqua Pure setup)

http://www.filtersfast.com/Aqua-Pure-AP810-water-filters.asp



Flow meter one of each:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4308-hydronix-panel-mount-flowmeter.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5285-hydronix-adjustable-panel-mount-flowmeter.aspx


psi gauge qty 2:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4567-noshok-bottom-mount-25-water-pressure-gauge-0-300-psi-ss-14-npt.aspx

Good choice - now you just gotta add fun and excitement to the mix and you can boil off water without boiling.

[not_for_sale]

Just how much water do I want to remove before I start to cook?

Also does concentrate have any different storage time restrictions than raw sap?

What is 55 hog referring to?

If you double your sap brix you are removing half the water - If you start with 2 %, 4% will remove half the Water and 8% will remove 75% of the water. 100 Gallons of 2% will turn into 25 Gallons of 8%. Supposedly the concentrate spoils easier. The pump actually warms the sap - unfortunately.

I meant 55 GPH. With this system you'll have 8% concentrate in 90 minutes on 100 Gallons of SAP if you recirculate into the tank.

[Diesel Pro]

If you double your sap brix you are removing half the water - If you start with 2 %, 4% will remove half the Water and 8% will remove 75% of the water. 100 Gallons of 2% will turn into 25 Gallons of 8%. Supposedly the concentrate spoils easier. The pump actually warms the sap - unfortunately.

I meant 55 GPH. With this system you'll have 8% concentrate in 90 minutes on 100 Gallons of SAP if you recirculate into the tank.

OK so if I recirculate concentrate back to my sap tank I'm not being inefficient? This should save me having extra tank capacity if this works.

How far down is it practical to refine with the RO before starting to cook?

Trying to put this into perspective as far as cooking goes. I guess if I had 100 gallons of sap and cooker did 10 gallons per hr I'd have 10 hrs cooking. Now I'll have 90 minutes RO time but how much cook time? It would be much less than the 2.5 hrs to cook 25 gallons of 2% because it's already at 8% right? I realize of course this is all theoretical, but it helps to justify the expense when explaining to the "war department"

P.S. It's looking like I'll tie about $1500 into the major parts for this. Could have done it cheaper, but if my plumbing equipment passes muster it should be very flexible and easy to plumb.

[saekeaton64]

I can't find the link, but somewhere I read that the osmotic pressure to concentrate to 8-10% is around 200psi( I think). If you concentrate to 8% then the ratio of sap to syrup is around 10.75:1. If your evaporator boils off 10 gph then you should be drawing off close to a gallon of syrup per hour.

[saekeaton64]

Congrats on your purchase, keep us all posted with plenty of pics as you put everything together. I hope to start building my system later this summer.

[Diesel Pro]

I can't find the link, but somewhere I read that the osmotic pressure to concentrate to 8-10% is around 200psi( I think). If you concentrate to 8% then the ratio of sap to syrup is around 10.75:1. If your evaporator boils off 10 gph then you should be drawing off close to a gallon of syrup per hour.

So you are saying I'll need to ramp up my psi to get to 8%? I have a 170 psi relief on the pump.

One other thing I am struggling with is filter location. I believe my filter housing is rated for 100 psi. I've seen the filters plumbed both pre and post pump. Can I draw through a 5 micron filter adequately or will I need to boost it? If I pressureize the filter and limit to 100 psi what does that do to my % potential?

Sounds like once I start cooking 8% sap I had better stay on my toes...

[saekeaton64]

The pump you bought has a preset at 170psi but is adjustable between 151-250 psi. You should be able to look at you pressure gauge and adjust the relief valve to the pressure you wish to run. I would install you filter before your pump. 1) It will stop anythings bad from going into your pump. 2) You don't have to worry about the housing cracking due to the pressure. The filter is going to cause a slight reduction in flow but I think as long as you keep your feed lines level or above the pump you should be fine, the pump you bought can self prime at 6' of draw so it should pull the sap through the filter just fine.

[Diesel Pro]

So is it reasonabl eto expect a 50% reduction the first pass?

The reason I ask is I am contemplating adding another pair of 65 gallon leg tanks on saw horses. Maybe a 35 as well.

Pull up the buggy and draw from sap tank one until empty feeding concentrate into concentrate tank one. Then same for sap tank 2.

From there I can either recirc the concentrate tank or add another smaller 35 gallon concentrate tank.

Move the concentrate to the evaporator with a 5 gallon "Car Boy" tank.

Take my semi finished product home in another car boy tank....

[saekeaton64]

Well I have plugged some numbers and here is what I have come up with (right or wrong ?)
The XLE 4040 is rated at 2600gpd of permeate flow. Being that the sap going through the membrane is cold (around 36 deg. F) there is a reduction factor of 2.6 that must be applied.
2600gpd/2.6=1000gpd
1000gpd/24hrs=41.66gph
41.66gph/60min=.7gpm
The 240gph procon pump running at 200psi has a flow rate of 228gph.
228gph/60min=3.8gpm
So the maximum amount of sap you can run through you machine is 3.8 gallons per minute with a permeate flow of .7gpm that would give you a 4.4:1 concentrate to permeate ratio.The minimum concentrate flow rate for the for the membrane is 3gpm with would allow at best .8gpm permeate. Not_for_sale metioned a 6.7:1 ratio, that would give you 3.28gpm con. and .49gpm perm.

Now that we have a lot of numbers, lets try to make them make sence.
The best your machine could do is to remove .8 gallons of water per minute, and with the 6.7:1 ratio you would be removing .49 gallons of water per minute.
You said that you have 2-65 gallon storage tanks (130 gallons of storage). If you do not recirculate the concentrate back to the storage tank you will be removing 3.8 gallons of sap per minute.
130gallons/3.8gpm=34.2 minutes. It will take 34.2 minutes for the pump to drain your tank. If you are removing .8 gallons per minute then you will remove (34.2 x .8 = 27.36 gallons per pass).
So, in one pass you will reduce your total volume to (130 - 27.6 = 102.4 gallons).
Lets say that you have 130 gallons at 2% sugar content and are running at .8 gallons of permeate per minute (48gph) in the 1st hr. you will have 82 gallons @ 3.17%, in the 2nd hr. you will have 34 gallons @ 7.65%, once you reduce you volume to about 32.5 gallons you should have 8% sap.

Hopefully this makes sence and helps to answer you question, long story short you should be removing about 21% of you water on the 1st pass.

[not_for_sale]

Well I have plugged some numbers and here is what I have come up with (right or wrong ?)
The XLE 4040 is rated at 2600gpd of permeate flow. Being that the sap going through the membrane is cold (around 36 deg. F) there is a reduction factor of 2.6 that must be applied.


You also need to adjust for the TDS content of the Sap. If you look into the Spec, the 2600 GPD is only valid if you feed permeate to the pump. So it will only get that during permeate wash. There are a couple of columns on feedwater that is not permeate. The 2.6 is at 41 F - so 2.6 is not entirely accurate either.

As far as pressure goes - Reverse Osmosis happens because you apply pressure on the concentrate side to counter the natural osmotic pressure. The more pressure, the higher you can concentrate, and the faster the process goes. When you have organic molecules like sugar, you have OH groups that can plug the membrane - and as such turbulence and fast flow on the concentrate side are necessary to prevent this plugging up (fouling). So the faster your flow - the better the membrane will hold up. The recovery rate of 15 percent says that you should only apply enough pressure so that your concentrate flow is 6.7 times higher than your permeate flow. If you don't apply more pressure to go past this ratio - you don't need recirculation. If you go past the ratio, you need recirculation in order to prevent fast fouling. 100 psi will get you in the 9-10% range if you have infinite time available.

[Diesel Pro]

Thanks for the math guys. That's where I'm lacking is the theory and math of things.

Let's see if I have this right.

Running the RO and with both lines wide open there should be a lot of concentrate flow and little permeate. Using the flow valve to restrict the concentrate builds resistance to flow to get permeate flow and target a 6.7:1 ratio.

Do I concern myself with pressure at this point or just the ratio? If I follow I woud only up the pressure if I exceed relief on my way to 6.7 ratio?

Pressure gauges at inlet of housing and outlet of concentrate port?

[not_for_sale]

Pressure gauges wherever you want them.

You'll notice that sometimes you would want to go faster than 6.7:1. You can do that, but the machine will need a rinse and wash more often. The flow meters help you decide when to wash. You should meter your build with a new membrane at a certain pressure. You then compare your flow rates and pressures with the running operation. If you need to apply much higher pressures to receive the flow, it's time to wash with permeate. If that doesn't restore the performance, its time for a wash with RO soap. The more you wash the happier your membrane is going to be.

[ihuntbear]

good morning everyone..Been following this thread,very good info..I'm looking at building one also,does anybody have a drawing of one of these units..please keep the info coming

[Diesel Pro]

One of the better illustratiuons that I have found is here:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtYXR0YXR1Y2ttYWRuZXNzbWFw bGVzeXJ1cHxneDo0MWIyY2E0OGM0NGY4Yjhh

Now I will be using a single membrane and pre filtering due to pressure, but the concept is similar.

[BRL]

Diesel Pro are you going to do a drawing, parts list and build along? I would love to build something similar to the size you are building. Brian

[Diesel Pro]

First I have to make it work. I'll gladly share photos and specs as well as results then maybe someone could work up a schematic.

I also plan to investigate alternative methods of filtration so I'm not throwing away a filter each time I run the unit.

[BRL]

If you send me a hand sketch when you are done I will gladly cadify it and pretty it up for you.

[Diesel Pro]

Will do

What I see this site needs is a handy reference page or a few locked sticky threads that outline common issues. Searching is an option, but you get a ton of stuff to wade through before you find what you are looking for.

[ihuntbear]

:confused:when you guys say wash or back wash with premate do u mean back wash like a pool filter or just run premate through it ..I was looking at the drawing and noticed check valves at every fiter.if that's the case u won't be able to back wash just run premate through it until the gages go up..am I looking at this right or am I missing something..to me u need to reverse the flow in a filter to clean it but that's coming from a pool guy

[not_for_sale]

You run warmed permeate through it.

[Gary R]

One of the ways to help with searching is to have the correct title on the thread (you do). Advance search for the word in the title only. Hopefully if there is good information the thread takes off and many posts are made. Look for high post numbers. You never know, some take off, others fade away. There's many of us kicking around the RO idea. It would be great to have a information thread that works well.

I know a couple of producers who use swimming pool filters for the sap. It looks like a great way to clean the sap. No throwing away cartridges. Unfortunately I don't know how they do it.

[saekeaton64]

Ihuntbear, when you wash you don't really run the permeate backwards through the system as it would damage the membranes. You just open the concentrate needle valve so there isn't any back pressure on the system and you flush the remaining sugar, bacteria, minerals, etc. from the membrane. This keeps the membranes fresh. Once the wash is complete the membranes should preform close to new, if not then a membrane soap wash is needed to better clean the membranes.

[not_for_sale]

Pretty good price for these components on Amazon. Amazon has been one of my favorite supplies for this stuff.

Pumps:

1. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0099TTV76?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B0099TTV76&linkCode=xm2&tag=mapletrader-20

2. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LDG4L0?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000LDG4L0&linkCode=xm2&tag=mapletrader-20

3. If you get teh Aquatec, make sure you get the 8852 - some sellers sell an 8800 pump and then its likely the low flow pump. My Aquatec can handle 3 150 GPD membranes in parallel with cold sap easily. this Amazon price on it is only $79 right now - pretty inexpensive: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A7ZV2GO?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B00A7ZV2GO&linkCode=xm2&tag=mapletrader-20

Membranes:

1. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WPHUAG?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000WPHUAG&linkCode=xm2&tag=mapletrader-20

2. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004BG5ETG?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B004BG5ETG&linkCode=xm2&tag=mapletrader-20


The stainless housing for the XLE 4040 is actually cheapest on ebay. There is a seller selling them for $80. Amazon sometimes has the housings for the residential membranes at $7.00 plus shipping.


Here is what I use to backwash. RO soap is actually lye (NaOH). This is pure lye (food grade even though it says drain opener :) ).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002BW4MV8?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B002BW4MV8&linkCode=xm2&tag=mapletrader-20

In order to backwash with this - you need to make sure you know the PH of your bachwash water. You can either get a PH meter, or, your could just get PH strips. Effective backwash is at a PH of 12. Some recommend a PH of 11. 12 is more effective though.

The review on the meter are kinda bad, so I just used strips.

Strips: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001T77WW2?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B001T77WW2&linkCode=xm2&tag=mapletrader-20

Meter: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G8PWAU?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B004G8PWAU&linkCode=xm2&tag=mapletrader-20

[saekeaton64]

I have been thinking of a few ideas for a simple schematic and valve setup. The design allows the unit to be controlled by 4 – 3 way valves, the upper valves allow the flow from the membrane to go into the concentrate tank, the raw sap tank or evaporator, or allow the system to drain during the wash cycle. The lower valves control the inlet into the pump; sap, R.O. soap, or permeate water can be selected.
The design on the schematic uses two pressure gauges, one on either side of the membrane to monitor pressure drops.

[saekeaton64]

On the picture of the valve setup I posted above, the location of the drain and concentrate from flowmeter ports needs to the switched.

[bowhunter]

not-for-sale,

Be careful with the NaOH. I don't believe any US producers still use mercury cells, but I'll bet other parts of the world like China do. NaOH produced by the mercury cell process contain trace quantities of mercury and would not be suitable for food grade applications. You might want to stick with peroxide and if the RO soap is too expensive just throw the membranes away if the peroxide doesn't bring them back.

Dave

[childsr2]

Here is an excellent article on membrane use for sap and membrane maintenance by H2O Innovations. I use their 4" membranes.
http://maple.h2oinnovation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/H2O_Innovation_Maple_Membrane_Training_2011_ENG.pd f

[not_for_sale]

not-for-sale,

Be careful with the NaOH. I don't believe any US producers still use mercury cells, but I'll bet other parts of the world like China do. NaOH produced by the mercury cell process contain trace quantities of mercury and would not be suitable for food grade applications. You might want to stick with peroxide and if the RO soap is too expensive just throw the membranes away if the peroxide doesn't bring them back.

Dave

Thanks - is there a quick way to test for Mercury?

[bowhunter]

Sorry I don't know of any quick test for mercury, but there may be. I would expect it to be at very low levels and difficult to detect.

[Diesel Pro]

Parts arrived today. Quick check with the 4" housing and it fits like a glove on teh back side of the 2 wheel hand truck. I'll need to weld a couple cross pieces of strut in place and clamp it in, but should be good to go.
Same for the pump, motor, and filter. Then I need a smal panel for the flow meters.


I'm not planning to mess with valves on this one. I'll just plug the supply and discharges into the appropriate tank(s) and goo from there.

[Dennis H.]

Diesel Pro do you have any pics of your RO build?

[Diesel Pro]

Here's the start of it. A couple hours and I have it pretty much mocked up. Still need to plumb and touch up burnt paint.





7657

[Dennis H.]

That is cool! I love the idea of using the hand truck.
Very compact also.

[bowhunter]

very nice......

[hodorskib]

That is awesome! Not only impressive but practical. Nothing like a little Yankee Ingenuity :cool:

[Diesel Pro]

I tried to get you guys to talk me out of the hand truck idea...

I need to get some 90° streets for places like the filter out port and figure out where to plumb the high side pressure gauge. The street tee that I have comes up too close to the motor. Might be able to rotate it 90° or just add a 2" nipple and a std tee.

Not sure what I'll do for a panel for the flow meters yet.

Waiting on tubing and the drain valve. Also need to get proper sized strut clamps for the housing as the ones I have are too big. The "pipe" sizing thing gets me.

Also need to verify the plumbing in and out of the membrane housing. See my other thread.

[Diesel Pro]

Do I need to lube the drive coupling or just leave it dry?

[bowhunter]

It's a good idea to lube the coupling in most cases.

[Diesel Pro]

OK I'll be lubing the coupling with some nice clingy EPL grease.

Mounting flow meters today.

For some reason the AFM-55 is shorter than the PFM-55 even though the spec says they are the same. They also mount differently. The PFM has bulkhead rings and extended pipe nipples. The AFM has shorter nipples and 2 short brass mounting screws. Also the AFM has a white backdrop where the PFM is translucent. I guess a guy could have gone with matching AFM's and just left the one wide open.

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/specifications/HDX_PFM-AFM-IFM.pdf

[Diesel Pro]

Added a "panel" and mounted the flow meters. I can see whare having a side port housing would be nice for plumbing. Live and learn I guess...

Going to wing it with food grade silicone spray for teh RO seals as that is all I have.

[Diesel Pro]

Not much progress today. Tubing is here. Waiting for some elbows and nipples. Also waiting on the missing orings for the RO housing.

So can I get a crash course in comissioning and operation please?

My educated guess is that I would open needle valve wide open and process water first. The needle valve would be gradually closed until the concentrate flow is reduced to approx 7x the permeate flow?

Do I need to open the needle wide open and then start to close gradually when switching to sap or can I leave in same general range?

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

you will want to wash your membrane and do a rinse. also remember sap doesnt go thru as easy as water. so you will make different adjustments

[Diesel Pro]

Any step by step procedure that you could point me to?

[Diesel Pro]

So here is my plan to start with a new system and new dry membrane:

1) Flush with clean tap water to get it ready and get the “junk” out. I’m planning to try using home water system pressure to do this as they want low pressure and I’m not sure that I can get that with my pump. I don't have any permeate to flush with, only clean filtered water. I can use our plain tap water or I could use our softened tap water either way. All well water and all very good.
2) Close up system, transport to sugar shack
3) Install my flexible lines and start the sap processing until all is processsed
4) Swap my feed line to the permeate tank when done and run permeate through the system pushing the first bit of concentrate back to concentrate tank until sugar content is gone.
5) Swap pre filter and flush system more this time discharging to the ground
6) Remove lines, plug ports, and store for the week until next weekend

Do I drain the bulk of the water or leave it stand inside for the week?

Freezing is not a concern where it is stored.

Do I need to "wash" the membrane between weekend batches or is a simple rinse/flush sufficient?

[Diesel Pro]

Well I don't know what to say for sure. It's plumbed and running, but lots of air. I'm recirculating so that could be a factor, but lots of foam and seemingly low flow.

The membrane had a flared seal on one end only. I put this facing the inlet end thinking this made the most sense.

[bowhunter]

Are you circulating sap or tap water? If you're running sap and it hasn't cleared up you probably better go back on tap water until you can get it settled down. The Procon pumps will not tolerate running dry for more than 2-3 minutes. If you have a lot of foam the pump may be running dry. You may have a leak in the suction piping and its sucking in air. Can't help with the membrane question.

[Diesel Pro]

I'm still at home on water and recirculating into a likely too small tank. Probably eating my own foam. I'll see what I can so at the cabin where I will have some volume to process and more tanks to drop into.

It's moving water, just a bit slower than it should be. Hopefully tomorrow I can work out the kinks.

[bowhunter]

Is it developing pressure or do you have a gauge on it?

[not_for_sale]

Tap water? Hopefully no chlorine in it!

[not_for_sale]

What it could be is that you are sucking through a filter. Many pumps don't like that.

[saekeaton64]

You are going through the filter first then the pump, your filter is mounted a bit higher than the pump. I think you could have an air bubble in the line between the two causing the problem. You may need a bleeder valve after the filter and prime the system to get the air out. Maybe move the pump up and/or the filter lower so any air can pass throught the pump easier. Don't know just a thought.

[Diesel Pro]

I have it loaded in the truck and ready to go. We'll see how it goes tomorrow. The sap buggy tank is higher than the filter so I am hoping that it gravity feeds strong enough. I hope all that air doesn't hurt the membrane. Might have to add a booster pump. Also the release button on the filter may be an issue. I think the spring is strong enough to overcome any suction. I guess time will tell.

It was able to build pressure, but flow was cut way down. My max free flow was running around 2.5-3gpm as I recall.

[saekeaton64]

When you were testing your system, were you drawing water from below the filter? With your bulk tank higher I think it should help force any extra air out. I have seen a few pictures of other homemade ro on another site that is setup similar to the way you have your and they didn't need a booster pump. Hopefully the extra draw head pressure will solve your problems.

[mellondome]

sounds like maybe you have the air purge on the filter head on the output side and not the input side. If it is on the output side, your pump will suck air in the purge before it pulls water through the filter.

[Diesel Pro]

70+ gallons collected Thursday evening. Another 70 collected Saturday noon and 30 more Sunday noon.

Feeding the RO machine from my tanks in the sap buggy (gravity feed) the unit worked exceptionally well. I was able to use the release button (inlet) to purge the air from the system and it cleared the air quickly. The system is a bit noisy until I start to lean on it a bit with the needle valve. It starts to settle down as output approaches 200psi. My guess is maybe this is a bit of supply starvation and at this point I may be starting to bypass at the reliefe valve. My permeate flow meter is WAY too large of scale. It soon dawned on me that theoretically, this meter should be no larger than 1/5 the size of the concentrate. The .5-5 is completely useless as I can't make enough flow to move it. What I did was go by clock method. I turned the needle to make 175 psi or so and watched how long it too to fill a 5 gallon jug. In this case it was 15 minutes initialy. So 20 gph is .33 gpm. Now you see why the scale of the meter is too large.

I played with my digital refractometer keeping all the numbers in my head, but essentially what I saw was this 20 gpm initially and then as the sap began to concentrate this slowed down. I ended up running at around 200 psi removing well over 100 gallons of water (all tested at 0.00 brix) with the RO so it was definiteley a lifesaver. The sap that I cooked was all in the upper 7's brix. I haven't tested the 8-9 gallons of "near syrup" that I have, but it should be up in the 50 brix plus range by my best guess.



Modifications needed:

I need to add mini ball valves to stop the flow when shut down to switch tanks etc.

Permeate flow meter needs to be swapped with a MUCH finer scale. .1-1 gpm is what I'm figuring. Need to downsize some fittings though as this one is only 1/4 NPT.

A couple drips need to be taken care of as well as location of the main pressure gauge.

Enlarge feed tubing size to be larger than the discharge




I'll try to get some more pics of the RO setup this week and also try to get some pics of my sugar camp in operation when I get things cleaned up and better organized.

[saekeaton64]

Glad to hear the system worked well for you. Keep us update on performance and upgrades.

[Diesel Pro]

You agree on the flow meter sizing correct?

If we max at 6:1 ratio then a 1/6 scale permeate meter is in order.

Figure the Procon pump at 240GPH (4 gpm) I assume this rating is free flowing and that there is a curve as pressure rises.

With .33 gpm permeate I had concentrate in the low 2's and falling to below 2 as the brix rises.

I did a cold water rinse, but did not have any soap or warm water available this weekend.

[saekeaton64]

I would say that you are right on downsizing the flow meter for the permeate. Maybe one that measures 0-2 gpm.
When you said that the concentrate was in the low 2's, is that your flow rate? I would think that it should be a bit higher than that.

[saekeaton64]

The flow range on the procon 240 pump is: ( 50psi=243, 100psi=240, 150psi=236, 200psi=232, & 250psi=228)
At 200psi you should be pumping around 3.86gpm, if your permeate is at .33gpm and concentrate is around 2gpm =2.33gpm
You are loosing about 1.5gpm somewhere.
Are the lines connecting the different components in your system a smaller dia.? Maybe some restriction there?

I know that all this info is based on lab test, using water at a certain temp. Blah, blah ,blah, etc.

[bowhunter]

The pump should hit the pump curve. I've seen hundreds of pumps in industrial applications and they will all come very close to the curve unless there's a problem. I suspect the suction to the pump is restricted a little too much. All the tubing/piping should be the same diameter as the suction connection. Also there should not be any significant restrictions such as a filter in suction to the pump. A trash strainer is alright and I believe the pump has one built in..maybe not. I think the noise is the pump cavitating until the flow is restricted enough to allow the suction pressure to get up high enough to stop the cavitation.

Dave

[Diesel Pro]

Yeah I kind of figured it was cavitation that I was hearing. I have one more batch to run then I'll look at replumbing it larger.

I used 1/2" "nylon" tubing but I think they might size it based on OD. A special high pressure high quality material similar to air brake line. I think I need to size the supply up to 3/4?

I figured the tubing with push connects would allow easy reconfiguration.

Hopefully it survives the last weekend and then I can look forward to even better performance for next year. Might add a booster pump to the inlet of the filter just for good measures.

[Diesel Pro]

I would say that you are right on downsizing the flow meter for the permeate. Maybe one that measures 0-2 gpm.
When you said that the concentrate was in the low 2's, is that your flow rate? I would think that it should be a bit higher than that.

I went 0.1-1 with the flow meter.

My reasoning is that even IF I was at a 6:1 ratio and I had even say 1 gpm permeate flow I would have 6 gpm total flow or 420 gph and I'm nowhere near that.

[bowhunter]

That range should be fine on the flow meter. I would also check to make sure the internal pump strainer, if it has one, is clean. It could have sucked in some trash and be partially restricted. Cavitation probably won't hurt the pump as long as it doesn't do it too long. I would definitely go with 3/4 inch supply to the pump. I just checked the pressure drop on 10 ft of 1/2 pipe at 4 GPM and it was over 8 PSI. That's a lot on the suction to pump. Ten feet of 3/4 inch would have about 1 PSI of pressure drop. 1 PSI is the equivalent of sucking the liquid up 2.3 ft. I didn't have any idea how long your suction tubing is, but I figured 10 feet would account for the piping plus some additional fittings in the suction piping.

Dave

[saekeaton64]

Maybe you could use soft copper tubing, it has a very high burst rating, NSF certified, easy to work with, and the cost only hurts a bit.

[Diesel Pro]

My tubing measures .390" ID, but we move 3-5 gpm through 1/2" hose with 12v "pumps" at 29 watts. I think I'll be OK on the high pressure side. It's the supply side that needs to be revised.

I'll have a look at 1/2" NPT hose barbs at the hardware store, but I'm thinking 5/8" hose should suffice for the supply side. This will be huge compared to my existing line.

I will also check the inlet for obstructions and to see if there is a screen. It looks like the pumps come apart pretty easily. Just a snap ring and the end plate comes out. Any "consumables" inside? Probably just an oring end seal?

[bowhunter]

I'm pretty sure your problem was the tubing on the supply side so it's probably not necessary to check the strainer. 5/8 inch 2 psi of pressure drop on the supply side for 20 feet of tubing. That's probably ok.

Dave

[Diesel Pro]

With my portable "dolly" style I run about 8' of pre filter and 2' or less post filter. I might lengthen a bit, not sure just yet.

The run from the pump to the housing is less than a foot, but I may still look to enlarge that as well.

The permeate line is probably 12' long, but insignificant due to low volume. This gives me the flexibility to run to different tanks.

The concentrate line is close to 10' and seems to flow well.

I'll have a properly scaled flow meter for this coming weekend so I'll be able to much better gauge performance.

[bowhunter]

Is the filter in the supply line? If it is that would be a concern especially when the filter starts to plug. I think everything on the discharge of the pump including the permeate line sounds like they're ok.

[Diesel Pro]

Yes filter is in the supply. Feeds gravity from tanlk to filter and then from filter to pump which is just a few inches off the ground. Filter housing is only rated at 100 psi so I did not want to filter after pump. I keep my sap strained pretty well so there's not much getting into the filter to plug it. Plus the 10x4 element is oversized for the little bit of throughput it gets before being tossed.

I picked up some 5/8" hose and replumbed the feed portion. Personally I would think 1/2" hose would suffice, but the fittings are small passage. If a guy had a special fitting that actually stretched the hose and matched the ID's would be best.

I think this setup will do well. If not it will probably have to wait for next season.

[bowhunter]

It'll probably be ok because you can hear the pump if it cavitates. It might be a good idea to add a second filter in parallel to the one you have. The would be a pretty cheap way to minimize the problem vs. trying to get a higher pressure rated filter housing.

Dave

[Diesel Pro]

OK so in theory, how many gallons of sap should I be able to process with the 4x40 xle membrane before needing to rinse?

Do I understand correctly that a cold water rinse is inadequate and that I need 90-100° water to do a proper rinse?

Is it normal to see permeate flow drop as the concentration rises? Hard to gauge with a semi functioning unit and I'm hoping toi hit the ground running this weekend. If I'm due for a good rinse I'd liek to do that this week while at home and I have access to warm water.

[mellondome]

Rinse after every use. Warm permeate will rinse faster, but cold will work fine too, just need more of it. Your permeate flow will drop as concentrate flow increases.
Keep track of how your membrane works new. Run water through it at a known temp and pressure, and track the flow on both outputs. This will be a baseline to know when your membranes are clean. Do the same once you are pushing sap. The first few minutes will be fast and gradually slow to a stable set point. Keep track of that stable rate and pressure. When you see it has dropped say 20% then time to flush. Flush until you get back to your clean water baseline. Don't use warm water for your baseline unless you are heating all your permeate to that temp.

Also when you are flushing, the first couple minutes of water from the concentrate side will have sugar in it as it gets washed off the membrane.

[bowhunter]

Diesel,

I think you've probably seen this presentation, but if not it has some useful information to go along with melondome's advice. http://maple.h2oinnovation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/H2O_Innovation_Maple_Membrane_Training_2011_ENG.pd f

Dave

[Diesel Pro]

OK so it looks like I am nowhere near the per day capacity of my membrane after running 170 or so gallons of sap down to 60 or so. I did a water flush midway last Sunday. I caught the first 3 gallons or so and put back in the concentrate tank as it scored 2.5% as I recall. I then went back to sap, finished my run and then switched over to water and flushed probably 10-15 gallons or more through at no pressure, changed filter, and closed it up for the week.

Bowhunter,

Thanks for the link. Lots of stuff in there to sift through...

[bowhunter]

Hope it work for you. I'm trying to decide on an approach for mine for next season, so I'm trying to keep up with everyone who's trying them this year.

[Diesel Pro]

Not sure what I'd do different except maybe consider dual membranes for more refinement in a single pass and maybe some sort of washable reuseable type filter. Also side port housing for simpler plumbing with less elbows.

I'm not sure if there is an optimal plumbing arrangement for the membrane housing, but I push in through the bottom and out through the top in order to push out the air. Seems to me I've seen the plumbing done the opposite way before.

[Diesel Pro]

The upsized supply line definitely helped. It was pretty darn cold Saturday (30°s) but it ran well. I ended up pushing up the relief valve and found that running up around 225 psi I could get around 24 gph removed. Of course this drops off as the % increases and by the time I hit around 8% it is geting pretty slow and wanting to start to groan and cavitate. In the end I processed 180 or so gallons of sap to 8% or so and boiled down to just a tad over 6 gallons finished product.

When I was finished with the RO I switched to permeate tank and ran about 3 gallons through which I asaved and boiled off. I then ran about 12 gallons through and dumped. Not knowing whether it waqs best to rinse at no psi or low psi I varied my pressure, but most of my rinsing was at zero psi fast flow. I tell ya what permeate just FLIES through the system.

Next season I think I need to look at either a bypass pump or just a simple boost pump to keep the filter under pressure.

Setting up for one more weekend and it promises to be a big one...

[mellondome]

add a cheap $100 1hp stainless boost pump between your supply and your filter. this will eliminate the flow issues and save your procom pump from self destruction from starvation/cavitation. There is a huge difference sucking through a 80 mesh screen and a 5 micron filter.

With a 4" membrane, you want to flush with your pump pushing as much water as it can. the xle should be capable of 15 gpm through put. Just leave the pressure as low as you can ( probably around 75psi) with high flow rate... don't exceeded the throughput limit of the membrane.

[Diesel Pro]

In the true spirit of the home build I happen to have a couple different Laing UCT 909 recirc pumps. One pushes up to 24' of head and out to 6 gpm. It is centrifugal design so there's quite a curve to it, but hey I own it. Extra junk like timer and temp sensor are irrelevant. Just need to put a solid "push" on the filter.

http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/manuals/laing_uct909tanklessbrochure.pdf

[bowhunter]

You probably do need a booster pump and a centrifugal would be perfect vs. a positive displacement such as a diaphram. One other option might be to recycle most of concentrate back to the suction of the pump and run the system once through at 65-75% water removal. That's how the smaller commercial units are set up so they don't need a separate recycle pump. This will reduce the flow through the filter tremendously. I think you have a 2,500 GPD membrane, but I can't remember the pump size....215 GPH? Anyway heres how it would work. You bring sap in through the filter at a rate of 35 GPH. It mixes with 220 GPH of recycle concentrate so the pump is pushing 255 GPD through the membrane. If your pump is smaller than 255 GPD back down on the amount of feed by increasing the recycle and reducing the net concentrate flow out. You control the recycle concentrate through a needle valve. You also control the net concentrate out to the concentrate storage or evaporator by needle valve to 10 gallons per hour. Use the concentrate recycle valve to control pressure on the membrane and therefore the permeate flow. For the 75% removal in this scenario you should have about 25 GPH of permeate. So you feed in 35 GPH through the filter, take 10 GPD to the evaporator and send 25 GPH to the permeate tank. If your feed is 2% sugar the concentrate will be 7.5-8% sugar. The flow through the membrane should be the same as it is in the once through case and your recovery will be about 10% which is well below the maximum of 15% recommended by the vendors. This is basically how the Springtech 50 GPH unit works with only one pump.

[Diesel Pro]

I have the 240gph Procon.

I'll see how the supply pump works. I'm hoping it does great things. The plumbing is not as tidy as I would like with this pump, but it's paid for. Eventually I 'd like wone with an NPT head and no nonsense controls.

I'm intrigued by your recirc concept but what does it gain me other than throughput in filter and lower output of stronger concentration?. Does this gain me some flow efficiency? So I take it I would tee this recirc in just after the filter? Need another flow meter too I would guess. I'm already partly plumbed for this. I went with tow outlets for the concentrate on mini ball valves. That way I can tap off concentrate if we are evaporating and no need to pull lines.

[wiam]

Recirculation keeps the membrane from fouling as fast.

[bowhunter]

As William says the recirculation keeps the membrane from fouling as fast and you can reduce the flow through the filter because right now you're pumping 240 GPH or 4 GPM through the filter. The pressure drop through filter will be much lower at 35 GPH vs. 240 GPH. You will still be pumping the same amount through the membrane. Yes, tee it in just after the filter. You might get by without another flow meter. In the recirculation mode the net concentrate flow is going to be much lower than what you're running today. You could move the meter on the concentrate to the recirculation line and just measure your net concentrate flow in the recirc mode with a bucket and a watch. If you set it up once through it won't change that much with time only the impact if the membrane starts to foul a little. Big advantages to once through is you can feed to your evaporator right of the RO and it would probably be enough to supply your 2 x4 at 10 gpm. So you start up the RO on recirculation sending the net concentrate back to the sap tank. As soon as it's lined out you light the evaporator and switch the net concentrate to the evaporator. When you're done boiling you can shut the RO down or go back to circulating to the sap tank if you still have sap you want to process. No matter which mode you operate in you need to keep the ratio between the concentrate and the permeate at 5:1 or higher. In recirculation the concentrate is the total of recirculation flow plus the flow of concentrate to the evaporator.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

if you dont have a feed pump the HP pump wont last long, at least mine didnt when I tried to use gravity to feed it. When the vanes do explode it will take all that small crap and push it into your membrane. Borrowed a jet pump hooked it up before the filter. Before the jet pump I was lucky to get 175psi on a 250 psi pump. As soon as I hooked up the jet pump I was at 250 easy. Sounds like you built a good unit hope it works for you. I'm already looking to upgrade to a 8".

[bowhunter]

Flat Lander,

Just out of curiosity what brand of pump were you using and were you trying to go once through or recirculating? I'm working on a design and have been concerned about feeding by gravity, but the pump is supposed to have 6 feet of lift.

Thanks,

Dave

[Diesel Pro]

bowhunter,

The Laing E3 is what I would like to try. With it's simple NPT ports it could be mounted right to your filter head via brass or SS nipple. Being a centrifugal design it can't really get in the way of flow. Just start the main pump then bring the supply pump in to push into the filter. I got the Laing pumps that I have here as samples. Working on obtaining the E3 as a sample. I have a really nice lighgtweight, compact alternative that I'd like to use, but it's 12vDC and I'm not going to mess around trying to power it.

From experience you never want to "draw" through a filter. Any little leak will let air in and cavitation/outgassing is very easy to create. I kind of wondered about my design going in, and this has proven to be true in my case. It doesn't take much push, just a little bit of positive pressure and you are good. Running at 3 psi versus say -4" hg is a 5 psi gain more or less which is huge on the supply side.

I'm quite certain that I'll be adding a recirc line to my setup even though I am recirculating to the tank. I might actually try to run another weekend just so I can test it out...

[Diesel Pro]

I just ordered another needle valve and a branch tee and we'll see how it goes.

My plan is to add the branch tee at the filter outlet and put the second needle valve right above it.

I'll then add another tee to the concentrate line between my housing and the flow meter and send my bypass fluid this way.

Thinking the simplest way to run the machine with the booster pump and no bypass and find out what my permeate flow is at say 225 psi and use this as my target.

Let's say the permeate flow is .5gpm (optimistic)

I'll work my needle valves to obtain the same 225 psi and tweak to get the permeate to the same .5 gpm with the concentrate to tank at say 1 gpm. That should put 2.5 gpm in the recirc. .5+1+2.5 = 4gpm

[bowhunter]

Diesel,

I'm not familiar with the Laing E3, but if it's centrifugal and that's important so it's not a restriction, it should be good. I'm debating on the booster pump option myself. I plan to recirculate so it's not as critical, but it's obvious these Procon pumps don't tolerate low suction pressure very well. One other thought I had is using something like a router rheostat on the Procon pump to start it up at a slower speed. I'm not sure if that would work or not.

[Diesel Pro]

Well the machine is running today in it's original configuration. I have helper running it based on my phone instructions. He started around 12:30 and as of 4pm he has removed a good 80 gallons so far so 20+ GPH average is not bad. Measurements are crude in that the tanks are 65 gallon capacity, but stuffed to the top. I assume that they hold more like 70+ gallons. Anyhow two have now been combined into one with air space on top and the third tank is being dropped as I type. According to the flow meter it's been pulling permeate off at around .55gpm tapering off to .45 as the concentration comes up. Concentrate flow definitely drops so feed pump and recirc should definitely help. As soon as it's switched to a fresh tank (also more head) flow picks back up again. He's been running at just over 200 psi to err on the conservative side. I'm quite anxious to see what it does with the pending upgrades, but I am quite happy so far.

So when a guy says he has has a 240gph RO is that the main flow? With my 240 GPH pump and pulling anywhere from 20-30+ GPH off how is my performance?

[bowhunter]

Yes, He's generally talking about the amount of sap he's feeding the RO. You're getting about 10% recovery which is good because it's below 15% so it should minimize fouling of the membrane. 20-30 gallons per hour is about 600 GPD of permeate. If you ran the RO for 24 hours at this average rate you could remove 75% of the water from 800 gallons per day of sap. Using the formula of 1 1/2 gallons of sap flow per tap on a good day, you could theoretically handle just over 500 taps with the RO. That's pretty good!! To be able to handle the 200 gallons of concentrate in a normal 8 hr day of boiling you have to boil 25 gallons per hour. If the back pan on your evaporator is a flue pan you might be able to get pretty close to that boil rate...especially if you ran the evaporator 10-12 hours on those high flow days. So your annual capacity would be about 125 gallons of syrup per year assuming you have enough tree to tap. I'll bet you have one of the steepest startup curves on the forum. I was pretty proud of myself. I went from 0 to 16 gallons of syrup in one year. But if I don't install an RO or buy another pan i'm already tapped out.

[Diesel Pro]

Thanks again

So my goal should be to get things to 30 to 36 GPH and try to keep as steady as possible correct? Or do I expect my 240GPH flow to go up with bypass and feed plumbed?

I easily have many hundreds of trees that I could tap on our wooded 40. I've only hit some of the easy ones and most are large enough for 2 spiles, along with some triple trunks. I'm contemplating a gravity system, but there's always limbs and tops falling somewhere in our woods and I know things would get wiped out easily. The pic with the tractor shows mostly maple trunks. We have a mix of some yellow birch, a little basswood, and mostly maple from red to sugar and maybe some blacks based on the black bark on some.

It's funny I make 14-16 racks full of wood every season, but of course I take them all home where we burn them so none at the cabin so I started this project with literally zero dry firewood. I robbed a little of teh cabin wood and if it would ever stop raining and snowing there's more laying around uncovered. I have a 10 pulp cord pile of oak butts, a pulp cord of poplar, and a bit of misc maple but none cut and split. We took down a standing dead elm but it was a bit punky. We've got most of that tree burned up now and boiling has not been as good as it could be due to the wood quality. This weekend I plan to try to take off some end chunks from the oak logs and split with a maul as I don't want to drag my tractor up to run splitter. This pic was December 2011 and it had sat for quite a while before as evidenced by the blackening of the ends so it's been cut for a while. I believe the end pieces should be seasoned, but the internal chunks could be questionable. I'd really like to get the evaporator burning at it's full potential. Next year I'll be ready with a few racks full standing by.

Oak Butt pile:

7798

Typical rack of firewood:

7799

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Flat Lander,

Just out of curiosity what brand of pump were you using and were you trying to go once through or recirculating? I'm working on a design and have been concerned about feeding by gravity, but the pump is supposed to have 6 feet of lift.

Thanks,

Dave
Here is the pump we used, and the actual pressure is 250 not 230 Im running a 1 HP motor at 240V/8A. At first I had my membranes in series and I could take 2 to 2.5 to 6.4 one pass. Then I changed up to feeding them parallel I could take 2 to 4/4.5 but my GPH was probably around 200. When I recirculated the bulk tank I once got up to 10%, but that was like 4hr of it. As far as I'm concerned a HP pump is not made to suck only push. This company was awesome. They didn't have to repair my first pump free of charge because the damage was due to cavitation, but they did and sent it back to me. If I dint build an 8" I'm thinking of coming off my parallel membranes into another HP pump with a 3/4HP motor and push it through a 3RD membrane. Im think ling 2.5 to 5 and then the third membrane will take the 5 to 8 or 9


http://www.fluidotech.com/Pages/rotary_vane_pumps_500-1000%20series.aspx

[mellondome]

I just ordered another needle valve and a branch tee and we'll see how it goes.

My plan is to add the branch tee at the filter outlet and put the second needle valve right above it.

I'll then add another tee to the concentrate line between my housing and the flow meter and send my bypass fluid this way.

Thinking the simplest way to run the machine with the booster pump and no bypass and find out what my permeate flow is at say 225 psi and use this as my target.

Let's say the permeate flow is .5gpm (optimistic)

I'll work my needle valves to obtain the same 225 psi and tweak to get the permeate to the same .5 gpm with the concentrate to tank at say 1 gpm. That should put 2.5 gpm in the recirc. .5+1+2.5 = 4gpm


recirculation will not be of much benefit if you don't come close to the throughput flow of your membrane. in the case of an xle4040 this is 14 gpm. @ 4 gpm, you aren't flowing much across the membrane. You would be better served lower your pressure and letting the concentrate flow faster. if you can get 7pgm flow out concentrate side with minimal loss of permeate flow, it is better than 3.5 ( recirculation + concentration)

[Diesel Pro]

OK so I'll focus on the feed pump and see where that gets me. If it keeps me "on curve" better which I am certain it will I should be in good shape.

So what's my next step another membrane? Do I have enough pump?

My little Honda is happy running this setup as is provided I don't mistakenly try to start it under load. I'm adding 98 watts load potentially with the booster pump as well.

[Diesel Pro]

Well the temps froze up on us Friday and things never got going Saturday. I figure that I had about 310-320 gallons total. Helper ran the RO about 5 hrs taking 90-100gallons off before the feed pump.

I added the feed pump and ran about another 5 hrs Friday night. Saturday morning was tough as the RO lines wanted to freeze shortly after wheeling outside. I also had a frozen sap tank and valve and lots of frustration. Probably ran the RO another 2 hrs Saturday. As memory serves, we ended up with maybe 50 gallons of concentrate to boil and have about 11 gallons of very near syrup for finishing.

The boost pump made a huge difference. I ran the pump up at 250 psi and it was plenty happy. I had to adjust the relief as the pressure can be crept up over relief and bypasses, but you can hear it and see the loss in flow. Permeate has tested at 0.0 brix every time I checked.

With the boost pump I now have 5 GPM+ in most cases. When processing first run sap I can run at .6gpm and still have 4-4.2 gpm concentrate flow. As the concentrate "thickens" up the permeate flow starts to fade and concentrate flow increases as expected. Before the boost pump both flows would drop. Whe I get to the 12-14% range my flow is down around .2 to.25 gpm. In the end I was down to about .15 gpm. I did not do a final brix test to know where I was, but as atated earlier we had less than 50 gallons to boil and ended up with 11 gallons near syrup. Boiling was easy and it was almost tricky to keep up with at times especially at shut down with a good bed of coals and a ton of near syrup making the pans heavy.

I have not yet mastered the semi finishing pan operation and I don't draw off until we are completely done. I need a hot capable receiving vessel as my PET Carboys don't want any more than 140°f so right now I just let it stand and cool. We made at least 3 gallons more this week than last in about 1/2 the boil time or less. Now I'd just like to make the RO a bit faster or at least I need a larger tank. The 65 gallon tanks concentrate down pretty quick so it would be nice to have a nice big tank to set up on and go off in the woods.

[ihuntbear]

Hi Diesel..your set up seems to be working well other then u say the tanks should be larger.What would u say that your ro cost you..I'm planning on building an ro for next year..are u planning on making any other changes other then tanks??.If not do u thing u could supply us with a parts list and schematic drawing...I want to start gathering parts now so I Can start putting it together a little at a time m,aybe over the summer..From what I've read I need a procon main pump,a feed pump,maybe two membranes 4x40 xle don't know in parallel or in series,two flow meters,some valves,one needle valve maybe two,maybe a pump for recirculation,three large tanks in 300 gal range or one large and two smaller,high pressure hoses and fittings,a filter for the main pump..I think a parts list and schematic drawing would be helpful in my build....thanks for all the great post on your build

[Dennis H.]

Don't forget pressure gauges.
I'm planning on putting a gauge on either side of my inlet filter, that way I can see when it is starting to clog up.
Then you want one after your high pressure pump.

[Dennis H.]

I would plan from the beginning for a feed pump.
The procon's can only pull sap so hard before it starts to starve itself. It would also have to pull thru the filter and as it gets dirty it will be harder for it. Not a good thing.
So plan on a feed pump. There are some nice cheap SS ones on eBay for $100.

[Diesel Pro]

I dump my sap through a screened filter to keep out the bugs and bark and stuff. Also helps skim ice. Starting with a "clean house" from the beginning is a big help.

Pressure gauges on the supply are really not necessary IMHO. With a 10" x 4" filter and processing say 300 gallons sap it isn't coming close to loading one up near as I can tell.

Bigger tanks not necessary, but having larger tanks would allow longer unattended run time per tank. I run multiple 65 gallon tanks for poratability, but I may consider a larger "bulk tank" as well. It's easy enough for me to run the concentrate line to another tank and transfer while running. Then when it's all in one tank I can just recirc from the same main tank. I'm thinking on the lines of a 225 gallon tank for this.

Needle valves can be integrated with the flow meter. Just do the AFM series.

I have probably $1500 in mine not including the extra misc fittings used then removed in the development process. I went with some pretty expensive plumbing push connects and tubes that while not necessary, provide a great deal of flexibility and mobility which was a key goal with my portable setup.

I'm still refining the setup but I'll try to get some pics some time soon. I plan to run one more weekend provided the sap runs good this week.

I will be considering a second membrane for next season, but relying on guidance from this forum as to wether it is practical for me w/o revamping everything as well as series or parallel plumbing.

[bowhunter]

Diesel,

Been on vacation for a few days. Mellondome is probably right about not enough flow across the membrane but you have three choices at this point. 1) Live with it and clean the membrane often and hope it doesn't permanently foul. 2) Buy a much larger pump, but I think that may be a problem because you will have to resize everything including flow meters and you may not have enough evaporator if you had enough trees or 3) buy a smaller membrane to match the current Procon pump. These Procon pumps have a very flat curves so lowering the pressure will only increase the flow 2-3 GPH..not enough to make any difference on the membrane.

[Diesel Pro]

What would you consider "often" for membrane cleaning?

I have 145 gallons waiting for me with likely similar runs mid week and end of week. This would be biggest week so far if it holds true. I'll also be nearly out of tank by mid week.

It did not seem to mind taking nearly 300 gallons down to about 40-50 with a rinse midway through. I have yet to do a proper "wash" with soap.

[bowhunter]

You probably just need to watch the performance and wash it if the rinsing doesn't bring it back completely. I don't think anyone really knows how frequently it will foul at that really low flow rate but it will be worse than if it were operating at normal flows. It might be a good idea to wash it once a week as a minimum until you see how it going to handle the low flow. That's a really big membrane and you probably aren't pumping enough sap through it in a batch to foul it very much, but it will accumulate over time.

[wiam]

You should do a soap wash when a test flow is under 85% of original. This test is done with permeate at the same pressure every time. Then you have to correct for temperature. Maybe I can find a chart.

[Diesel Pro]

As in test with permeate in rinse mode where I'm just flushing it through?

So far the machine has performed very well. Of course the permeate flow slows way down as the concentrate levels increase, but switch to a fresh tank of 2-3% and it picks right back up. Run permeate rinse and it just plain flies through off the scale past 5 gpm at low pressure.

[Diesel Pro]

Here's the rundown of my initial order. I ordered everything through Freshwatersystems.com I found the customer service to be poor at best, but eventually I started working with the men there (Cory and John) after frustration trying to find missing orings for the membrane housing had me calling Hydronix for specs. Hydronix called Freshwater and Cory got involved. I had my orings the next day. Freshwater was not the least expensive, but what they did offer was one stop shopping with the exception of misc plumbing fittings etc. My total here is just over $1000 which is not bad. I had the filter housing on hand and added a boost pump to the feed which I also had on hand. Later I'll try to detail the project further and take some more pics of the latest config.

The red stuff was errors. There was a drive coupler in with the pump so now I have an extra.

I later went to this flow meter:

Hydronix Flowmeter Adjustable Panel Mnt 0.1~1GPM - 1.00...........55.62
1/4" MNPT


Having a .5-5gpm meter on the permeate line was well past 5x over scale. The replacement did not need to be adjustable. I only ordered the adjustable version as I thought it would match the other one, but I've found this whole flow meter thing to be a mess as the print specs do not match.





Product Qty Each Sub Total
________________________________________
Procon NEMA 48YZ RO/Carbonator Motor 3/4 HP 115/230V -
Part # H714 1 $219.99
21.25 $219.99
________________________________________
Procon Pump Brass With 1143 Bronze Coupling 240 GPH 1/2 NPT 170 PSI Relief -
Part # 104B240F11BA 1 $220.74
3.70 $220.74
________________________________________
Hydronix Adjustable Panel Mount Flowmeter - 0.5-5.0; 1/2" MNPT
Part # AFM-055 1 $53.62
1.20 $53.62
________________________________________
Procon V-Band Clamp -
Part # 1113 1 $6.50
2.00 $6.50
________________________________________
Procon Coupling Slotted Rotor C/O -
Part # 1143 1 $5.73
.06 $5.73
________________________________________
Filmtec XLE-4040 Tap Water Extra Low Energy 2600 GPD RO Membrane Element -
Part # XLE-4040 1 $250.11
6.00 $250.11
________________________________________
Stainless Steel Membrane Housing 4" x 40" 1/2" Feed -
Part # MHSS-4040-1212 1 $199.99
15.00 $199.99
________________________________________
Hydronix Panel Mount Flowmeter - 0.5-5.0; 1/2" MNPT
Part # PFM-055 1 $29.72
1.20 $29.72
________________________________________
Mounting Bracket - SINGLE Housing METAL for 10" & 20" Big Blue® Housings -
Part # FM-25W 1 $17.00
2.70 $17.00
________________________________________
NOSHOK Bottom Mount 2.5" Water Pressure Gauge 0-300 psi, S.S., 1/4" NPT -
Part # 25-901-300 2 $22.14
.85 $44.28

[bowhunter]

Yes, test it on permeate so you can see how it changes over time without the variations in sap sugar content etc. Do the test each time at the same pressure and correct the flow for different temperatures if you have the temperature correction table for the membrane. If it continues to yield the same amount of permeate at the same pressure each time you test then it probably doesn't need to be cleaned. When the permeate flow starts to drop off on the permeate test then it's probably time to clean.

[Diesel Pro]

I'm thinking (hoping) that this is where I leave the science out thinking that I have selected a membrane that is large enough and have enough flow that I can process a single years sap haul w/o fouling. It seems good so far and all I have done is cold rinses. My hope is to fininsh this weekend, do a thorough rinse, and then sometime later do a soap wash followed by another rinse.

I have some of the Lapierre buffered soap, but my water is cold and I need to get a PH tester yet.

From there I assume another permeate rinse and then storage solution?

Can I store the membrane in the housing full of storage solution for the off season? I can close off the valves to keep air out and probably store in the basement to keep below 70°f. A 40" membrane in a bag in the fridge is not going to happen.

[bowhunter]

I can't help you much with the clean up and storage. Here's a link to the small Springtech 50 GPH unit. I think it covers most of the procedures you need to follow.
http://leaderevaporator.com/pdf_files/springtech_micro_50gph_manual.pdf

[Diesel Pro]

Well we are all done for the season. Last batch was largest and finished just shy of 12 gallons. Now it's time to clean the RO and build a storage vessel for the Membrane. Part of the last batch got a bit fermented on us so it definitely needs a good soap wash now. Learned that we do not want to RO mid week and try to hold semi concentrate. It starts to turn pretty quick.

[regor0]

diesel pro,
How many gallons of sap can you process an hour. And how much, i guess it would be called, "concentrate" does it put out to boil an hour?
What would you do differently if you had to do it again? Awesome build its an exciting read.
Thanks Roger

[bowhunter]

Diesel,

Looks like you had a great season. I finally put my RO together, but don't plan to operate it until winter because I don't want to wet store the membrane before I actually get a chance to use it. I went with a 140 GPH Procon pump, 680 GPD Axeon NF4 which is similar to the FilmTech NF90. The system should do 22 GPH once through and achieve 75% water removal, but I'll post back once it's in operation next season with the actual performance. I designed the system using the recommendations and operating criterion on the Dow website. For those who are technically inclined, Dow has a great website for RO system design. I plan to feed the evaporator directly off the RO without any intermediate storage. We'll see how that goes. If it works like it's supposed to, I should be able to handle 100-150 taps with my little half pint in a 6-8 hour day.

Dave

[Diesel Pro]

diesel pro,
How many gallons of sap can you process an hour. And how much, i guess it would be called, "concentrate" does it put out to boil an hour?
What would you do differently if you had to do it again? Awesome build its an exciting read.
Thanks Roger

Like evaporating the RO process takes time. Flow rate varies with concentration. It will run .6gpm permeate flow and more with first pass so figure 36GPH removal first hour. It can actually push .7gpm, but the ratio is getting pretty tight at that and I don't know how hard to push it. When it gets down around .25gpm or so I pull the plug. That's got the concentration in the 12-15% range.

What we would do is recirc each tank until it's down to half full or so. Then we'd swap the discharge lines and combine. 260 gallons tanks becomes 130 and then we repeat. Once it's in a single tank I may leave the RO run on it for a while until it slows way down. I added a branch to the concentrate out line so I can pull off and into a bucket to feed the evaporator.

What would I change? Not sure. I like having the unit portable. I am considering larger tanks so I can get more unattended operation and also hold more permeate for cleaning.

Another thing that I learned was DO NOT concentrate until you are ready to cook. You don't want to hold concentrate in tanks. I'd also recommend rinsing tanks between "batches". We got a bit carried away and had a helper concentrating mid week. We ended up with the beginnings of fermentation, but thankfully it cooked clean. The tanks that had concentrate held showed definite signs and needed to be pressure washed.

[Diesel Pro]

Diesel,

Looks like you had a great season. I finally put my RO together, but don't plan to operate it until winter because I don't want to wet store the membrane before I actually get a chance to use it. I went with a 140 GPH Procon pump, 680 GPD Axeon NF4 which is similar to the FilmTech NF90. The system should do 22 GPH once through and achieve 75% water removal, but I'll post back once it's in operation next season with the actual performance. I designed the system using the recommendations and operating criterion on the Dow website. For those who are technically inclined, Dow has a great website for RO system design. I plan to feed the evaporator directly off the RO without any intermediate storage. We'll see how that goes. If it works like it's supposed to, I should be able to handle 100-150 taps with my little half pint in a 6-8 hour day.

Dave

Yeah I need to get off my *** and store my membrane. I bought a 4' stick of 4" PVC and some caps with screw in plugs. Looks like I need to use glycerine and storage chemical. I have both here but if you have any pointers.


Maybe there's something extra efficient with your design, but I don't see it feeding directly. Using a simple 5:1 ratio you'd have 110 GPH concentrate flow. You might try teeing the concentrate line to allow "draw off" at a reduced flow, but in my experience you'll want to recirculate your tanks or do intermediate storage.

The way I see it is if you run a 5:1 ratio you'd only remove 20% first pass?

As I understand, the ratio should be kept up around 6:1 or greater?

[regor0]

Thanks Diesel, I built basically the same one as yours except I went with a 330gph pump. Can't wait to try it out.

[Diesel Pro]

If I wasn't limited to the 2000w generator I'd probably have tried bigger. I actually have a Honda EU6500 but the little 2000 is so handy and portable.

I do plan to put the cabin on solar and a 3600w inverter so I may upgrade yet.

[bowhunter]

Diesel,

I'm running recycle back to the pump suction, so I have a concentrate to permeate ratio of 8.5:1. Did you end up doing any cleaning of your membrane besides washing with permeate?

Dave

[Diesel Pro]

I have to get my rear in gear and get the membrane out and stored. It's still in the machine although I think I have it sealed off well.

I never messed with recycle here's how I did it with 4) 65 gallon tanks

Tank 1 I would run until it hit the 30 gallon mark or so. I recirculated the concentrate back into the filler cap
Tank 2 I would run until it hit the 30 gallon mark or so.

Once I had both tanks safely at or below 1/2 full I would swap the concentrate line to Tank 1 and run until Tank 2 was empty.


Now I have an empty tank to send my permeate to. I would either continue to refine Tank 1, or I would repeat the same with Tanks 3, and 4. If I collected more sap as I was going I would just add to whatever tank I had room in.

I had my helper run the machine a day or so ahead of time. He'd run probably 5 hrs and could get me down from 260 gallons to 130 gallons or so. I would then run the machine on Tanks 1 and 3 until 50% and then combine so from 260 gallons or more I'd have 60 or less. This took a 2-4 more hrs as the rate slows down as the concentrate level comes up.


I did learn NOT to concentrate until ready to cook. Storing concentrate will get you fermentation. Thankfully mine was not bad.



Planned revisions:

I'm thinking of using one of those metal carports as a sugar shack. The cooker will still be outside, but under a roof. I'll probably poke the stack up outside the roof line so as not to create a hole and make up some sort of a gutter over the cooker. The rear part will be walled off for tank storage etc.

Larger tanks! I plan a much larger permeate tank for sure and probably same for concentrate. That will allow me longer runs unsupervised on the machine along with more cleanup water etc.

I may go to a gravity system as well, but the shack will be near the high point so I will have to pump uphill. I'm thinking I would just downsize the pump line to minimize volume and probably try to hang it high to pitch flat or towards the shack: I\

I'll also need a small portable pump to transfer tank to tank as needed.

[DVodzak]

Seakeaton 64: I am curious how Diesel Pro's RO system would perform with the XLE 4021 membrane in lieu of the the 4040. They have relatively equal costs. The 4040 has a rating of 1000 gpd when corrected for cold sap and the 4021 has a rating of 394. The 21 inch membrane would be much easier to store in the of season. I have a relatively small operation processing 400 to 600 gallons of sap in a season.

[Syrup Marky]

HI,

IF possible, I could use a littel help. I would like to build an RO, but cannot find a good set of plans. Any help woudl be appreciated. Thank you.
Mark[

QUOTE=saekeaton64;218222]Source: www.freshwatersystems.com
1- flimtec xle 2540 850 GPD =175.00
1- 2.5"X40" Stainless housing =134.99
1- 3/4HP procon pump motor = 219.99
1- 10" Filter housing = 10.28
2- .5-5gph rotameters = 59.44
2- 300psi gauges = 33.94

Source: www.wateranywhere.com

1-240gph procon pump w/170psi preset =162.00

Total = 795.64 + hoses and fittings.

The reduction factor on the membrane with 36 deg sap is 2.6, 850gpd/2.6=326.92gpd
326.92 gpd/24hrs-day= 13.62 gallons per hour.
These calculations are based on 100psi feed pressure, as feed pressure is increased production will increase.

The 240gph pump will give you around 4 gph at pressure, the 2.5" membranes are rated for max. 6gpm flow.
You could add another tower if you wanted without a great need for recirculation if setup in series.[/QUOTE]

[DVodzak]

Syrup Marky: Attached is a drawing of the RO sytem I am fabricating. It is using a larger Filmtec membrane. You could scale down the plywood cabinet. It is currently a work in progress. I based on research from this site.8379

[DVodzak]

I could not figure how to post a pdf. If you provide an email I will forward it.

[Syrup Marky]

Hi Fire Wood Chopper,

Thank you for the help. My email is: smlmeb@windstream.net.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Happy Spring Syrup Season~

Mark

[Diesel Pro]

HI,

IF possible, I could use a littel help. I would like to build an RO, but cannot find a good set of plans. Any help woudl be appreciated. Thank you.
Mark

See post # 29 for my starter list, #134 for a wrap up of my parts list. Post #61 has a picture of my mock up.

I'll see about getting some pics of the "final product"

[Diesel Pro]

As promised

This is my portable RO setup that I built onto a 2 wheel dolly. First run sap will it will pull off 30-36 gallons of water per hr. so there is far less to boil. I typically run the sap to around 14% or so before boiling. Going further requires significantly more pressure. I run the machine at 250 psi max. It’s rated for 300 but I get nervous above 250. On our largest run this year we started with about 340 gallons of sap and end up boiling around 60 gallons of concentrate which cooked down to about 10 gallons of finished syrup.

In the picture, the tank on the left has sap and the clear water is being put into the other tank for rinse purposes. It can be a mess of lines, but having this portable is so handy I can set up wherever I want plus I can move it from tank to tank as necessary. If I had both tanks full of sap I’d run each one down to 50% by recirculating them and running the water off elsewhere. Once the second tank reached 50% I could then move the discharge over to tank one and move the contents of tank 2 into tank one. Once tank 2 is empty I can collect the water as a rinse.

This season I added a 125 gallon tank. It sits on the porch nicely plus it can be set up and left running unattended for a couple of hours if I need to run to town for supper etc. I now have 320 gallons plus tank capacity. I think the tanks run a bit larger than stated as the math never seems to work out quite right. I’m guessing they go about 10-15% over.


9703

[Dennis H.]

Very Nice looking setup Diesel Pro.

[Diesel Pro]

Third season in and I went to do a tank swap. Started back up and I had liquid squirting from the vent/weep holes in the pump. After a brief panic I connected to water and started it back up. It seemed to stop. It did seem to weep a bit after running, but seems OK. Not sure what I should do. Can a guy rebuild himself?

Thinking at the very least I should probably have a spare pump on hand. Worth moving up to a 265 with my 3/4 HP motor?

[Clinkis]

Check on uTube. Do a search for procon pump. If you scroll through them there are a bunch of videos of how to work on them. I watched a few of them when I was building my RO to get a better understanding of how they work. If you go to the procon website and search for a dealer and inquire about having it fixed. The one I spoke to said these pumps can usually be fixed or rebuilt and they can sometimes do it while you wait depending on the problem.

[Diesel Pro]

Will do. Since I am remote at my bush I'm thinking I should have a spare on hand as well. Not sure how much of a bump I'd get from a 10% nudge in flow going from 240 to 265, but I might try that as well.

[Diesel Pro]

Poked around you tube. I'm not very good at searching there. I found a 3 part vid in a foreign language plus a guy that squirted some anti rust crap in to free his stuck pump.

Once a guy determines that he wants to fix how does he find a rebuild kit?

[Clinkis]

The dealer here in Ontario Canada wouldn't be much good to you. I did a search and found this site which has a bunch on info about dismantling and repairing. Also there is a link farther down for exchange centres. Not sure if these will help but have a look

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/procon-pump-repair-overhaul-t22605.html
http://www.proconpumps.com/pages/Exchange-Centers-%7B47%7D-International-Reps.html

[Diesel Pro]

I ordered a 265 GPH as a backup. It actually priced cheaper than the 240 which I think was a mistake. Then I read the HP ratings. We'll see what happens if the 3/4 HP motor will run it. According to the chart the 240 requires .86 HP and the 265 requires 1.01HP at 250 psi

I've had no problem crossing 250 psi with the 250 so I should be OK

FWIW $70 for repair kit $70 install

I found the entire 265GPH pump w/relief for $165 free ship. The 240 was $220 from same site. Hopefully they send the right part to match the part number and description and not the one with no relief.

[Clinkis]

What are using for membranes? 240 gph seems like a lot of flow if you are only removing 30 gph permeate? Or have you added more membranes? My xle 4040 removes 70gph on first pass (2% sap) with 190 gph procon pump.

Just curious.....what do you do for washing and rinsing? I am still trying to figure out best way to do it. I've just been flushing with all my permeate so far my membrane has always recovered. I bought some RO soap but haven't used it yet and I'm sure I should be.

[BreezyHill]

DP...bigger is better.

I have an old Memtek ro with a 5 Hp piston pump...she is rated at 550 to 600 psi...unit is designed for 500 running psi.

I run at 300 on the new xle mbs. I can bump up my psi and flush the mbs during a run if my permeate flow drops.

Other suggestion is flow meters, I have 4 concentrate...to small for these eles it goes to 2.0 and I have to run 3.0 minimum out the 2 eles or I pass sugar.
permeate...that's my bench mark on the mbs.
sap in flow...if this drops then my filter needs changing
membrane recirculation...this is how the Dow engineer realized my problem source; I am running around 35 gpm and the xles are 16 gpm...so hopefully for next season I will have another pair of xles parallel to the current pair that run in series to each other. This should double my out put as I am nowhere near the capacity of this unit.

Had to change the supply pump as the heater in the unit crapped out in one of theose early season sub zero nights and split the 3/4 Hp supply pump.

Keep your units simple on the plumbing...mine is a nightmare of hoses and pressure lines to sensors... reason she came with heaters and totally enclosed and insulated. Does quite her down a lot to when the front door is closed.

So where can I get Imperial threaded connections? Two to the flow meters froze, there are not NPT.


Thanks

Ben

[Diesel Pro]

What are using for membranes? 240 gph seems like a lot of flow if you are only removing 30 gph permeate? Or have you added more membranes? My xle 4040 removes 70gph on first pass (2% sap) with 190 gph procon pump.

Just curious.....what do you do for washing and rinsing? I am still trying to figure out best way to do it. I've just been flushing with all my permeate so far my membrane has always recovered. I bought some RO soap but haven't used it yet and I'm sure I should be.

I run 240 gph pump. My concentrate flow runs about 4.2 gpm and permeate at .6 gpm initially. I realize that this is more than 240 GPH, but it is what my meters read. My psi runs around 150 initially and I creep it up as I go to maintain near the 6.7 ratio that I read was desirable.

I have no recirc just a dirt simple setup as pictured earlier in this thread.

[Diesel Pro]

Just a recap to get this all into one post.



Here's the rundown of my initial order. I ordered everything through Freshwatersystems.com I found the customer service to be poor at best, but eventually I started working with the men there (Cory and John) after frustration trying to find missing orings for the membrane housing had me calling Hydronix for specs. Hydronix called Freshwater and Cory got involved. I had my orings the next day. Freshwater was not the least expensive, but what they did offer was one stop shopping with the exception of misc plumbing fittings etc. My total here is just over $1000 which is not bad. I had the filter housing on hand and added a boost pump to the feed which I also had on hand. Later I'll try to detail the project further and take some more pics of the latest config.

The red stuff was errors. There was a drive coupler in with the pump so now I have an extra.

I later went to this flow meter:

Hydronix Flowmeter Adjustable Panel Mnt 0.1~1GPM - 1.00...........55.62
1/4" MNPT


Having a .5-5gpm meter on the permeate line was well past 5x over scale. The replacement did not need to be adjustable. I only ordered the adjustable version as I thought it would match the other one, but I've found this whole flow meter thing to be a mess as the print specs do not match.





Product Qty Each Sub Total
________________________________________
Procon NEMA 48YZ RO/Carbonator Motor 3/4 HP 115/230V -
Part # H714 1 $219.99
21.25 $219.99
________________________________________
Procon Pump Brass With 1143 Bronze Coupling 240 GPH 1/2 NPT 170 PSI Relief -
Part # 104B240F11BA 1 $220.74
3.70 $220.74
________________________________________
Hydronix Adjustable Panel Mount Flowmeter - 0.5-5.0; 1/2" MNPT
Part # AFM-055 1 $53.62
1.20 $53.62
________________________________________
Procon V-Band Clamp -
Part # 1113 1 $6.50
2.00 $6.50
________________________________________
Procon Coupling Slotted Rotor C/O -
Part # 1143 1 $5.73
.06 $5.73
________________________________________
Filmtec XLE-4040 Tap Water Extra Low Energy 2600 GPD RO Membrane Element -
Part # XLE-4040 1 $250.11
6.00 $250.11
________________________________________
Stainless Steel Membrane Housing 4" x 40" 1/2" Feed -
Part # MHSS-4040-1212 1 $199.99
15.00 $199.99
________________________________________
Hydronix Panel Mount Flowmeter - 0.5-5.0; 1/2" MNPT
Part # PFM-055 1 $29.72
1.20 $29.72
________________________________________
Mounting Bracket - SINGLE Housing METAL for 10" & 20" Big Blue® Housings -
Part # FM-25W 1 $17.00
2.70 $17.00
________________________________________
NOSHOK Bottom Mount 2.5" Water Pressure Gauge 0-300 psi, S.S., 1/4" NPT -
Part # 25-901-300 2 $22.14
.85 $44.28




Here is my machine. This was before I added the booster pump to push through the filter. A real must have:

11350

[Clinkis]

Looks very similar to my system. I added a simple recirc loop with a needle valve and a couple of fittings. I'm running at 260-270psi and getting about 2:1 concentrate to permeate ratio without recirculating. With recirculating can get it pretty close to 1:1 but I have found it easier to just recirculate in tank and bring it up to 11-12%. Learned the hard way not to go over 300psi....blew an end cap of membrane housing. Like I mentioned earlier....what are you doing for washing and rinsing?

[Diesel Pro]

I just return to the tank that I am drawing from. When I get to the 12% range my permeate flow drops to about .3gpm. I can push up to aboiut 250 psi, but have not gone further. I have not tried running 250 psi on first run sap either. I have read somewhere that the 6.7:1 ratio is max a guy should go.

Are you saying that you run 260-270 psi regardless of flow ratios?


I did a soap clean my first year, but since then I just do a rinse with my "almost" permeate. What I do is collect the permeate in the tanks after they are emptied and move from tank to tank to get the sugars out then finally run out onto the ground when done. That way nothing festers in my tanks during the week.

[Clinkis]

Yes, I always run mine around 260psi. As sugar rises my permeate flow will go from about 1.2gpm and drops to about .3gpm by the time I have it up to 11-12%. As permeate flow decreases, pressure rises so I have to keep backing of pressure to keep around 260psi. Works great and have had no problems as long as I keep my pressure below 300psi. Everyone that I have spoken to that has these types of RO's has told me that should operate between 250-275 psi. Never heard of this 6.7:1 before.

[Diesel Pro]

Here's some commentary about ratios from earlier in this thread:


Also, the ideal flow rate ratio for the 15 % recovery is 6.7 : 1.

Remember, you can adjust the concentrate valve to achieve that flow ratio. What it essentially means that if you want to run at a higher removal rate than approximately 55 GPH you need a bigger pump or recirculation. I would go with the bigger membrane because if you wish to run it faster you simply get a second PROCON and recirculate.


Sorry, I was looking at the wrong spot in the data sheet. The minimum concentrate flow rate for the xle 4040 is 3gpm. The max feed rate on the xle 4040 is 14gpm. The lowest ratio you could run and still be in spec. would be 3.6:1 which would total 13.8 gpm.

The xle 2540 has a minimum concentrate flow rate of .7gpm, at a 4.42:1 ratio you would still be under the max pump flow rate of 3.8 gpm.


You also need to adjust for the TDS content of the Sap. If you look into the Spec, the 2600 GPD is only valid if you feed permeate to the pump. So it will only get that during permeate wash. There are a couple of columns on feedwater that is not permeate. The 2.6 is at 41 F - so 2.6 is not entirely accurate either.

As far as pressure goes - Reverse Osmosis happens because you apply pressure on the concentrate side to counter the natural osmotic pressure. The more pressure, the higher you can concentrate, and the faster the process goes. When you have organic molecules like sugar, you have OH groups that can plug the membrane - and as such turbulence and fast flow on the concentrate side are necessary to prevent this plugging up (fouling). So the faster your flow - the better the membrane will hold up. The recovery rate of 15 percent says that you should only apply enough pressure so that your concentrate flow is 6.7 times higher than your permeate flow. If you don't apply more pressure to go past this ratio - you don't need recirculation. If you go past the ratio, you need recirculation in order to prevent fast fouling. 100 psi will get you in the 9-10% range if you have infinite time available.

[Clinkis]

I have seen and read about this 15% recovery rate before and it more relates to dealing in the water purification not sap concentration. The specs for these membranes are also based on water purification and saying nothing about sap as they are not designed for this purpose. The math is a bit different when dealing with sap. I don't pretend to know it but from running my previous RO, my new RO and speaking to people with RO's the numbers I'm getting seem to be fairly normal. My old R0 ran with about a 50% recovery rate (which was way above spec)and it worked flawless for the 3 years I had it and is still working well for the friend I gave it to. I think this is why rinsing and washing of the membranes is so critical because they are pushed to the extreme in our application. If you search the threads here related to the deer run RO's (Ray Gingridge), which some use the same membranes as ours I believe, they get similar numbers to mine. A 15% recovery rate is not very practical for sap processing but if that's what works for you then great.

[Diesel Pro]

I guess I'll have to look at running the psi up a bit higher initially and see how it does.

[DaveB]

Great thread and I love the use of the dolly to make it portable. FYI, you can save a couple hundred dollars on the pump and motor. Amazon has the pump for about $100 less and Harbor Freight has a similar motor for the same savings:

http://www.amazon.com/Procon-114B240F11BA-Brass-Rotary-Vane/dp/B0099TTU18/

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-horsepower-farm-duty-agricultural-motor-68288.html

[saphead]

Found these videos on you tube yesterday that Steve Childs did last summer.Worth watching.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEQEumoRrqI

[bkeith]

I have seen and read about this 15% recovery rate before and it more relates to dealing in the water purification not sap concentration. The specs for these membranes are also based on water purification and saying nothing about sap as they are not designed for this purpose. The math is a bit different when dealing with sap. I don't pretend to know it but from running my previous RO, my new RO and speaking to people with RO's the numbers I'm getting seem to be fairly normal.



Did you get your equipment locally or mail-order (either your old system or new one)? I'm in the Oshawa area, looking for sources (pump, membrane, housing, etc.) and want to gather parts quickly, as we're right in the season and I want to try this ASAP.

Thanks.

[Clinkis]

if you are looking to make one with residential components then try canadian water warehouse. They are in Newmarket. If you want to build a commercial component RO then try Excalibur in Barrie. Your going to pay more then if you order online from US but should be able to get it fairly quickly.

[bkeith]

Why are we specifically using rotary vane pumps?

I know we need to reach a certain pressure in order to push the sap through the membrane, but wouldn't a pressure washer pump work, if adequately restricted so as not to overpressure the housing or membrane?

Something like http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/2-1-2-gpm-2-700-psi-axial-pressure-washer-pump-assembly/A-p8149676e

[DaveB]

Why are we specifically using rotary vane pumps?

I know we need to reach a certain pressure in order to push the sap through the membrane, but wouldn't a pressure washer pump work, if adequately restricted so as not to overpressure the housing or membrane?

Something like http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/2-1-2-gpm-2-700-psi-axial-pressure-washer-pump-assembly/A-p8149676e

One reason I can see right off is the price. The second is if it's food grade or not.

[Clinkis]

Why are we specifically using rotary vane pumps?

I know we need to reach a certain pressure in order to push the sap through the membrane, but wouldn't a pressure washer pump work, if adequately restricted so as not to overpressure the housing or membrane?

Something like http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/2-1-2-gpm-2-700-psi-axial-pressure-washer-pump-assembly/A-p8149676e

Why not go with what works. Procon pumps are similarly priced and designed for these types of applications. This pump may work but pressure seems a little excessive. 250-300 psi max is all you need. Also, as others have mentioned, procon pumps are designed for food and beverage applications. Pressure washer pumps are not.

[bowhunter]

The ProCon rotary vane is the best choice for this size RO. The maximum pressure they generate matches the max design pressure of the membrane housing. They're food grade and specifically recommended for RO application. And finally they are less expensive and very reliable. A pressure washer pump isn't designed for continuous service.

[Diesel Pro]

I ordered a 265 GPH as a backup. It actually priced cheaper than the 240 which I think was a mistake. Then I read the HP ratings. We'll see what happens if the 3/4 HP motor will run it. According to the chart the 240 requires .86 HP and the 265 requires 1.01HP at 250 psi

I've had no problem crossing 250 psi with the 250 so I should be OK

FWIW $70 for repair kit $70 install

I found the entire 265GPH pump w/relief for $165 free ship. The 240 was $220 from same site. Hopefully they send the right part to match the part number and description and not the one with no relief.


FYI I am having second thoughts about the 265 gph pump on a 3/4 HP motor. This weekend it was cold outside so I had to throw a blanket over the unit while processing outside. Eventually I moved my machine inside the garage part of the cabin as the temps kept dropping. Running in the open at low temps starts to load the filter and cavitation bubbles start to travel.

In the cabin it warmed to about 70°f ambient. Machine running at 275 psi hit thermal shutdown.

Most of my processing is outside so it may not be an issue, but running a larger pump at 275 psi may prove to be pretty taxing on the motor.

[bkeith]

Why not go with what works. Procon pumps are similarly priced and designed for these types of applications. This pump may work but pressure seems a little excessive. 250-300 psi max is all you need. Also, as others have mentioned, procon pumps are designed for food and beverage applications. Pressure washer pumps are not.

I'm just trying to get up and running with what I have on hand. If I prove to myself that it's worth the time-savings, I'll upgrade to the expensive components. But if the overwhelming voice of experience say that this is THE way to go, I'll bite the bullet.

[Clinkis]

Procon pumps are not expensive and readily available. Not sure how you would save any money by buying pressure washer pump from princess auto.

[Clinkis]

FYI I am having second thoughts about the 265 gph pump on a 3/4 HP motor. This weekend it was cold outside so I had to throw a blanket over the unit while processing outside. Eventually I moved my machine inside the garage part of the cabin as the temps kept dropping. Running in the open at low temps starts to load the filter and cavitation bubbles start to travel.

In the cabin it warmed to about 70°f ambient. Machine running at 275 psi hit thermal shutdown.

Most of my processing is outside so it may not be an issue, but running a larger pump at 275 psi may prove to be pretty taxing on the motor.

I'm running the 190 gph pump at about 260psi and it seems to work well. I have an industrial 3/4 horse motor on mine and not the carbinator motor. Not sure if this makes any difference.

[bkeith]

Procon pumps are not expensive and readily available. Not sure how you would save any money by buying pressure washer pump from princess auto.

I have a number of pressure washers laying around. Some intermittent duty, some heavy duty that can be run longer.

[Diesel Pro]

I have a number of pressure washers laying around. Some intermittent duty, some heavy duty that can be run longer.

No offense, but why not start a new thread about using a pressure washer pump rather than mix it up here?

[Clinkis]

No offense, but why not start a new thread about using a pressure washer pump rather than mix it up here?
No offences, but I think that comment could be made with a lot of the post on this thread

[Diesel Pro]

I agree. Have to draw the line somewhere.

I received a lot of help and useful comments when I built my machine. I know how hard it can be to follow threads especially when the OP makes major revisions many pages later. That is why I edited my build details into the first page of this thread.

[Dennis H.]

MORE POWER, I put a 1.5hp motor behind my procon series 5 pump and it works great.

If you can afford it get a good feed pump. I bought a cheap one off of ebay. It does the trick but I would like to see more feed pressure when the high pressure pump is running. I am only able to get about 24 psi on the feed pump gauge when the high pressure pump is running.

[Diesel Pro]

I'm trying to stay within the limits of my Honda EU2000 generator. Squeezing it hard is getting near the generator's limit, but not bad. Still have enough capacity for lighting etc. I would like to increase the rate though and have thought about doing a second membrane, but there is not much room on the cart any more.

On a typical run I'll start with about 240 gallons of sap and end up boiling around 40 gallons at 12-14 brix. I'd like to double the size of my batches and do it all in 2 events versus 3-4 that I am doing now. I'm 75 miles from the bush and while I enjoy the time at the cabin commuting 4 or more times a season cuts into the economics of it all. Right now I run the RO about 6-8 hrs so I'd almost have to double the capacity. Right now I start the RO at between 5-6 pm and run until 10-11 pm then turn in for the night. I don't want to run the machine all night unattended so I start back up around 7 am and run until we start the cook at around 10 am give or take.

[Diesel Pro]

Ran my RO at 250-275 psi from the start this weekend. Flow meter showed .8gpm permeate flow on first run sap. I didn't want to push my luck and run 300 psi as the pump still weeps a bit. I processed about 360 gallons down to 16% before boiling. It was still pulling some off, but at .2-.2 gpm I just shut it down and flushed it. I'd say about 12 hrs total run time and over 300 gallons removed

I do have to wonder about adding a second membrane though to speed it up. It's been working quite well I would just like to see more production. Second XLE in series? Same size?

I see a typical 5 psi pressure drop on permeate and maybe 25 psi drop on concentrate if memory serves. I don't think it drops much more than that.

[Clinkis]

I do have to wonder about adding a second membrane though to speed it up. It's been working quite well I would just like to see more production. Second XLE in series? Same size?
.

I was wondering the same about adding a second membrane and curious if series or parallel. I know on my residential RO it worked best in series. Glad your RO seems to be working well when maintaining higher pressure from the beginning.

Put 200 gallons through mine this afternoon. Got it up to around 15% (I think...my hydrometer only goes to 12). Can't imagine going back to boiling raw sap.

[Diesel Pro]

My concern with going parallel is the flow or lack thereof. Cutting the flow in half sure can't help the fouling potential.

[mellondome]

For home built, go series. You will keep flow rates up and be able to concentrate higher on a single pass.

[Dancing Goat]

Just a recap to get this all into one post.



Here's the rundown of my initial order. I ordered everything through Freshwatersystems.com I found the customer service to be poor at best, but eventually I started working with the men there (Cory and John) after frustration trying to find missing orings for the membrane housing had me calling Hydronix for specs. Hydronix called Freshwater and Cory got involved. I had my orings the next day. Freshwater was not the least expensive, but what they did offer was one stop shopping with the exception of misc plumbing fittings etc. My total here is just over $1000 which is not bad. I had the filter housing on hand and added a boost pump to the feed which I also had on hand. Later I'll try to detail the project further and take some more pics of the latest config.

The red stuff was errors. There was a drive coupler in with the pump so now I have an extra.

I later went to this flow meter:

Hydronix Flowmeter Adjustable Panel Mnt 0.1~1GPM - 1.00...........55.62
1/4" MNPT


Having a .5-5gpm meter on the permeate line was well past 5x over scale. The replacement did not need to be adjustable. I only ordered the adjustable version as I thought it would match the other one, but I've found this whole flow meter thing to be a mess as the print specs do not match.





Product Qty Each Sub Total
________________________________________
Procon NEMA 48YZ RO/Carbonator Motor 3/4 HP 115/230V -
Part # H714 1 $219.99
21.25 $219.99
________________________________________
Procon Pump Brass With 1143 Bronze Coupling 240 GPH 1/2 NPT 170 PSI Relief -
Part # 104B240F11BA 1 $220.74
3.70 $220.74
________________________________________
Hydronix Adjustable Panel Mount Flowmeter - 0.5-5.0; 1/2" MNPT
Part # AFM-055 1 $53.62
1.20 $53.62
________________________________________
Procon V-Band Clamp -
Part # 1113 1 $6.50
2.00 $6.50
________________________________________
Procon Coupling Slotted Rotor C/O -
Part # 1143 1 $5.73
.06 $5.73
________________________________________
Filmtec XLE-4040 Tap Water Extra Low Energy 2600 GPD RO Membrane Element -
Part # XLE-4040 1 $250.11
6.00 $250.11
________________________________________
Stainless Steel Membrane Housing 4" x 40" 1/2" Feed -
Part # MHSS-4040-1212 1 $199.99
15.00 $199.99
________________________________________
Hydronix Panel Mount Flowmeter - 0.5-5.0; 1/2" MNPT
Part # PFM-055 1 $29.72
1.20 $29.72
________________________________________
Mounting Bracket - SINGLE Housing METAL for 10" & 20" Big Blue® Housings -
Part # FM-25W 1 $17.00
2.70 $17.00
________________________________________
NOSHOK Bottom Mount 2.5" Water Pressure Gauge 0-300 psi, S.S., 1/4" NPT -
Part # 25-901-300 2 $22.14
.85 $44.28




Here is my machine. This was before I added the booster pump to push through the filter. A real must have:

11350

Diesel Pro, As I'm browsing this thread I think your system most closely matches what I'd like to build. Just wondering if at this point there is anything that you'd change about your system or parts list? Thank You.

[Diesel Pro]

Not sure at this point. It works well as is. I've thought about recirc, but not sure that I need it.

The biggest thing I need right now is a good cleaning as I have only ever done one half *** attempt in 4 seasons of running it. Just rinse and store.

Probably the one thing I would do is enlarge my plumbing between the pump and the membrane housing. That and route my pushlocks to bulkhead fittings with easier access. Right now they are in the back and well protected, but access is not that great and they are mounted direct to the meters so I fear one day I may break the meter fittings.

A larger pump/motor to run 300 psi? Right now the motor has issues with warm temps and running hard pushing it to thermal shutdown. It also has issues starting sometimes.

I run this off a 2000 watt Honda generator so I'll probably leave as is. I do have a 265gph pump as a spare that I may install. My original is weeping and probably took a bit of a beating early on when I did not have a booster pump.

[Diesel Pro]

I should add I would like to see a membrane housing that used hinging T bolts with maybe say wing nuts and a cross strap to ensure that the end caps remained in place at high psi.

[Dancing Goat]

I should add I would like to see a membrane housing that used hinging T bolts with maybe say wing nuts and a cross strap to ensure that the end caps remained in place at high psi.

Thanks for the update. Perhaps a housing like this? It's what I was thinking of using. http://smile.amazon.com/40-316L-Stainless-Membrane-Housing/dp/B00TKUH7SY/ref=pd_sim_sbs_201_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=31006V49Q2L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=1QPWFHP890JF208WW87X

[Diesel Pro]

Thanks for the update. Perhaps a housing like this? It's what I was thinking of using. http://smile.amazon.com/40-316L-Stainless-Membrane-Housing/dp/B00TKUH7SY/ref=pd_sim_sbs_201_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=31006V49Q2L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=1QPWFHP890JF208WW87X


That looks like a very interesting setup. No way to blow the ends off at least. It also appears to eliminate the need for an elbow with the side port depending how it is configured. Also easy series plumbing of a second membrane. I would have to look at my plumbing, but if memory serves side ports are concentrate and center port permeate. This would mean easy series plumbing of a second membrane.

[Dancing Goat]

I'm just starting this build, and there's a lot to learn, thankfully I have until next season to finish. I've ordered a 4"x40" filter housing. I would like to size the rest of my components so that it's expandable to 2 filters. Not sure if the Auqatech 8852 is capable of supplying enough pressure/flow. Also, reading this thread it seems that Diesel Pro ran into some issues with his Procon Pump and maybe the motor not being big enough, anyone have a way for me to size for the correct pump/motor combination. I'm considering the Series 5 Procon pumps (I guess just because I like stainless steel), but not sure which one exactly. They have a 330 GPH, but it appears there's no pressure relief on that model, is that a deal breaker? Also, it seems that it needs to be a bolt on model rather than a clamp on model, is there any reason that I wouldn't want to do that? Thanks for any help.

[bowhunter]

I'd be happy to help with the sizing if you send me a private message with your e-mail address. If you don't mind tell me how many taps you have or plan to have and how much sap your evaporator will boil. Or if you know how much you want to concentrate the sap for example do you want to go from 2% to 4% or 2% to 8%.That will give me an idea of the proper size. I can give you membrane sizing, pump sizing and motor sizing once I see how much you want to process. The reason I go the private message/e-mail route is that I can't figure out how to attach documents to these posts. I don't mind sharing with everyone on the forum.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

[QUOTE=Dancing Goat;307868]I'm just starting this build, and there's a lot to learn, thankfully I have until next season to finish. I've ordered a 4"x40" filter housing. I would like to size the rest of my components so that it's expandable to 2 filters. Not sure if the Auqatech 8852 is capable of supplying enough pressure/flow. Also, reading this thread it seems that Diesel Pro ran into some issues with his Procon Pump and maybe the motor not being big enough, anyone have a way for me to size for the correct pump/motor combination. I'm considering the Series 5 Procon pumps (I guess just because I like stainless steel), but not sure which one exactly. They have a 330 GPH, but it appears there's no pressure relief on that model, is that a deal breaker? Also, it seems that it needs to be a bolt on model rather than a clamp on model, is there any reason that I wouldn't want to do that? Thanks for any help.[/QUOTE

Fluid O Tech
Darrel is super helpful, will size motor to pump and think they are cheaper than procon.
1 (860) 899-9577

For the equivalent pump up I have a 1HP single phase motor. For my most current set up I have a 2HP three phase with a vfd with a 601GPH pump and Darryl sized it for me just told him what I was doing.

[Diesel Pro]

I'm just starting this build, and there's a lot to learn, thankfully I have until next season to finish. I've ordered a 4"x40" filter housing. I would like to size the rest of my components so that it's expandable to 2 filters. Not sure if the Auqatech 8852 is capable of supplying enough pressure/flow. Also, reading this thread it seems that Diesel Pro ran into some issues with his Procon Pump and maybe the motor not being big enough, anyone have a way for me to size for the correct pump/motor combination. I'm considering the Series 5 Procon pumps (I guess just because I like stainless steel), but not sure which one exactly. They have a 330 GPH, but it appears there's no pressure relief on that model, is that a deal breaker? Also, it seems that it needs to be a bolt on model rather than a clamp on model, is there any reason that I wouldn't want to do that? Thanks for any help.

What I would do if I had it to do over again is I would use a better motor with capacitor start/run and a service factor of 1.25. This would mean needing a coupler versus a clamp on. I'm not running into issues so much as when I run it long and hard and try to jack the pressure it's right on the edge of thermal shutdown. I run at 250 psi max. for the most part which puts my HP needs at .86.

Bottom motor here: https://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-687-rocarbonator-motors.aspx


if I had unlimited electricity I may go to a 2HP, but I think that is overkill.

I read somewhere that the 330 procon requires a 20 psi inlet feed just FYI. I have a 265 here that I bought as a backup, that I really should just sell.

[Diesel Pro]

I should add that my motor is having starting issues at times. It may be the pump itself or it could be something electrical. Normally it starts fine, but sometimes I have to toggle the switch a few times and possibly take the generator off of eco throttle.

[CharlieVT]

Gents and Ladies of RO experience,

I have read with great interest this thread started by Diesel Pro regarding his RO build. Very helpful.
I plan on doing something very similar, I am looking for updates and suggestions to that project.

Background: I have little over 500 taps, most on vacuum. I boil on a wood fired Grimm 4x10 which I converted from oil fired to AUF/AOF and added a home brew auto draw off. The rig does about 120 gph or better.

I think I may have to flood the pans for the first boil of the season with raw sap in order to have enough volume to get started; does that make sense? Do folks with larger rigs start the season with raw sap and then switch to concentrate? Any problems doing that?

I am 60+ years old, and do everything myself. Long boils are wearing me out a little; firing every 5-10 minutes for 5 hours. ;) My primary goal is to decrease boiling time and firewood consumption (decrease my logging and splitting).

I have electrical power 220 service for RO pumps.
I'd like to concentrate up to about 14 percent, no need to go higher.
I'd like have a little excess capacity and filter fairly quickly; I'm willing to spend a little more for a couple of 4x40" filters in series rather than a single filter. Does this make sense? Or should I look for a larger single filter?

Unless I get advice and feedback to suggest changes, I'm just going to use Diesel Pro's shopping list. Can I use the same motor and pump for two filters in series?

Thanks in advance for any and all replies.

[wiam]

You will be waiting for an Ro that size. I had an older 2 - 4" membrane (series) machine with recirculation. I added 2 more in series parallel to the first 2. I could barely keep up with my 2x6 when I had that machine. (Concentrating to 15%). Even with a 2 membrane machine(series) I would not try to go to 14% in one pass.

[Clinkis]

There is no reason why you can't start with raw sap in your evaporator and then switch over to adding concentrate.

With these homemade RO's it is possible to go to 14% (I do it regularly) but you will have to do it in multiple passes (probably 3 at the least) or you will need to recirculate in a tank which is what I do.

If you want to use 2 membranes in series, which is what I'm planning on as well, you will want to use a slightly larger pump because of the increased permeate flow will decrease the overall flow across the membranes (especially the 2nd one). I am currently using 190 gph procon for a single membrane and it works great but I'm going to switch to 230 gph pump to help offset the additional permeate flow.

Even with 2 membranes with this style of RO your not going to be able to produce 14% concentrate quick enough to keep up with your evaporator. This RO would process approximately 100gph into 20 gallons of 14% concentrate at best. I would suggest either building a bigger RO or consider aiming for a lower concentrate %. Even concentrating to 7-8% would be a massive fuel and time saving and probably more inline with the capacity of this RO design.

Hope this helps

[Tweegs]

I have a similar set up and run 2 XLE 4040’s in series.

I’m running a 240 GPH Procon pump backed by a 1 HP motor (Marathon TEFC, 2 cap, wired 220V).
The pump is not enough, I’ll be going to the 330 GPH for next season.

I believe the motor should be strong enough for the 330 GPH pump, going to try it at least.
Had no trouble getting to 250 psi with the 1 HP motor, but usually ran around 175 due to a few leaks and I wanted at least 3 GPM flow over the membranes.

At 175 psi, with the membranes clean, I was removing about 1.1 GPM permeate.
At 250 psi it was closer to 1.5 GPM.

[bowhunter]

Your evaporator is way too big to do that much concentration. You can't make enough 14% concentrate on 500 taps to feed a 120 gallon/hr evaporator. Here's what I would recommend. Shoot for 50% water removal and a sap feed rate of about 200 gallons/hr. This would make about 100 gallons/hr of 4% concentrate. This would still cut your wood cutting in half and you could run both the evaporator and the RO a little harder to reduce the number of hours. Use an 8 inch MES or XLE membrane and a 660 gallon/hr ProCon or similar pump with internal concentrate recirculation. This will handle the 200 gallons/hr with a 50% reduction easily.

[CharlieVT]

Thank you for the replies.
I understand that I can't expect to concentrate as high as I first thought.
Also, that I won't be able to concentrate fast enough to feed my evaporator directly from the RO.

I have a 1000 gallon holding tank. Can I build a modest RO and just cycle sap from my holding tank through the RO and back into the holding tank prior to starting a boil on the evaporator? Just concentrate down to reduce my volume by 1/2 or more and boil from there?

[mellondome]

Yes. This is how most people with 4in membranes do it. One 4in membrane will remove about 75-90 gal of water per hour.
One 8in will be closer to 300 g/hr on a home build.

[CharlieVT]

Thanks everyone for your replies. After a few years of denying I'd ever get an RO, I'm now slowly coming up to speed. :confused:

I have concluded I am not going to have a RO directly feed the evaporator during boiling; I am going to make concentrate, then boil.

Which would be better, recycling sap through an RO back into the same tank until desired concentration is reached or using a separate tank to hold the concentrate? Or does it matter?

Sorry if this is discussed in a previous thread, I missed it.

[gmc8757]

One 8in will be closer to 300 g/hr on a home build.

Hey Mellondome. What kind of information did you use to come up w these numbers? I'm going to put together an 8" ro this summer.
Which pump, running psi, and flow rate gph numbers did you use to come up w 300gph? Ere these numbers also based off of having a dedicated recirc pump or could this be achieved with just a tee and needle valve feeding the inlet of the one pump again?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I used to go from main holding tank to concentrate tank to head tank and then start boiling. Now I start ro let about 2" get into head tank and throw the match. Think of all the extra electricity you are using to do all that concentrating. My unit now I can hit 10% one pass through mid season and late season I start dropping down to 9%. I feel comfortable now at 10, did a second concentrate pass to 14% this year. That was pretty crazy on my 2x6 I felt so went back to 10. My electricity bill for last month 127.59 (200 gal syrup), last year was around 147.00 (260 gal syrup). Last year I had to do two passes to get to 8%.

Tweegs: yes I feel the pump will be big enough, last year I was running 1HP motor and a 316gph no problem on three towers in series.

[Diesel Pro]

Thanks everyone for your replies. After a few years of denying I'd ever get an RO, I'm now slowly coming up to speed. :confused:

I have concluded I am not going to have a RO directly feed the evaporator during boiling; I am going to make concentrate, then boil.

Which would be better, recycling sap through an RO back into the same tank until desired concentration is reached or using a separate tank to hold the concentrate? Or does it matter?

Sorry if this is discussed in a previous thread, I missed it.

I don't have recirc on mine, but I'm planning to add it. Even if I don't use it it will be there. My concentrate like has a tee with 2 valves so I can send it one or two directions (back to tank or to pan) or both depending how I feel. Right now we just go to buckets and dump buckets into the pan, but I do see value in a slow and steady add versus dumping and waiting for boil to recover.

[CharlieVT]

Gents,
Thanks for all the info.
Special thanks to DieselPro, BowHunter, Flatlander and all others who take the time to share knowledge, info, and experience.

I haven't done study regarding the physics of RO design by looking at membrane characteristics, etc. Rather, I'm just trying to learn from everyone else's experience and build on the basis of that. (Not trying to be an engineer, just a copycat. ;) )

Here's what I am thinking right now:

I am thinking of two 4x40 posts in series with recirculation; here are the basic components I am thinking of using:

Procon Pump 330 GPH Maximum Discharge Pressure: 250 PSI

This pump does not have a pressure relief. I plan on a high pressure and low pressure shut down switches; any problem with the absence of a pressure relief valve on the pump?

Motor: 1 HP Marathon
Anyone have a specific suggestion for a 1 HP motor that this mount will bolt to?
http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=14282&d=1462361457

Membrane Housing: 300 psi rated
http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=14281&d=1462359304

Some folks have reported some problems with the lower cost housing with clamps on the end caps; has anyone had problems with the type of housing using a "staple" to retain the end caps?

FILMTEC XLE-4040 TAP WATER EXTRA LOW ENERGY 2600 GPD RO MEMBRANE ELEMENT

I thought about using MES membranes, but some folks report being quite satisfied with the Filmtec XLE-4040. I'm thinking the difference between the Filmtec XLE-4040 and the comparable MES is splitting hairs; am I missing anything?

[Urban Sugarmaker]

FILMTEC XLE-4040 TAP WATER EXTRA LOW ENERGY 2600 GPD RO MEMBRANE ELEMENT

I thought about using MES membranes, but some folks report being quite satisfied with the Filmtec XLE-4040. I'm thinking the difference between the Filmtec XLE-4040 and the comparable MES is splitting hairs; am I missing anything?

I have the XLE and it is great. However, after speaking with MES about their 4x40, I would spend a very small amount extra and get that instead. It's fiberglass cased which is superior to the XLE, it has a wider feed space, and therefore it supposedly goes longer without fouling. It is also supposedly easier to clean because of this. Lastly, it is specifically designed for maple sap by people who make syrup. I like the idea of supporting their business too. Just my opinion. I will also say that MES was honest and said that it would not be worthwhile to replace my XLE with their membrane. I appreciate honesty like that, and I would definitely buy their membranes when I upgrade equipment.

[bowhunter]

Your set up should work fine. I would expect you can process 150 GPH of 2% sap and get 75% water removal (8% concentrate). The pump is about 10% small to achieve the 15% recovery/membrane, but I think it should be fine. I agree on the MES membrane. I haven't used them but they do have about 10-15% less capacity at the same conditions as the XLE if they're both clean. The MES may stay clean longer. In my opinion the relief valve isn't necessary if you have the high pressure shutdown switch.

[Diesel Pro]

I can't tell from the pics, but that housing and cap setup is what I'm thinking of switching to. I am contemplating adding another membrane and I think that side ports will lend themselves well to this eliminating an external U.

[lots to learn]

Im looking to upgrade from my small residental ro to a 4x40 what is the latest and greatest?