Question about "when it's Syrup"

[DonMcJr]

There have been a few folks in the Michigan Tapping section wondering why it's supposed to be Syrup 7.5 F above the boiling point of water but had to go to 221F or more for our Hydrometers to say it's Syrup... (Water Boiling for me was 210.5 F when I had to go to 221 F for the Hydrometer.)

I would say it could be my Hydrometer but others are seeing the same thing and my Hydrometer paper didn't slip either.

Also I checked my Digital Thermometer with Boiling water that day before finishing and water boiled at 210.5 F ( I use the Smart Phone App "Boiling" and had to check the app and it's right on!)

I made a post to see if we all got our Hydrometers at the same place by chance. Mine's from tapmytrees.com.

Any comments?

[Tappy Sap Master]

I souly rely on my hydrometer. The thermometers are not that acurate so i actually calibrate the thermometer in the syrup pan to my hydrometer every boil and check it throughout.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

barometric pressure also plays a role. The other night my temp gauge I had set the boil before said I had syrup the scoop dipping into the sap by draw point said I had syrup the bubble in sap by draw point said I had syrup but my hydro was down a point or so. made me nervous from what I had witness but went with the hydro and waited a minute let the temp Gauge come up another point or so

[MapleLady]

Checked my boiling point with a candy thermometer here the other night, while starting on a finish boil. Water boiled at 209F. My syrup was finished at 217F, according to my hydrometer -- 1 degree more than the +7 rule. I went with the hydrometer. Maybe this was just a fluke, but I've only used this hydrometer twice so far. Will see what the next couple of boils shows. I also got mine from TapMyTrees.

[spencer11]

It's cause the barometric pressure changes the boiling point of water, and syrup. The hydrometer tests density which doesn't change

[Asthepotthickens]

The same goes for us here in Eastern Ontario. Most of the time I get syrup at 219. Last Sunday I was at 221 and the syrup would still not sheet. I took it off and started to bottle it once I cooled a sample I knew this syrup was not thick enough so on Monday I boiled it once again. A few minutes after boiling it sheeted and made a nice thick syrup. Mother nature plays tricks on the sugar makers. Note, my wife was baking bread that day and it did not rise well.

[red maples]

yes the pressure can vary and can change things as much as a degree or more. I was pulling syrup off at a certain temp and it had been testing near perfect for density. then we had a day when I was pulling syrup at the same temp and didn't check things until the next day only to see it was a point and a half light according to the Hydro. So it needs to get checked daily on what temp you need to draw off at.

[wnybassman]

I went by temperature for years. Boiled here at 210º and I'd bottle at 217.5º. Then one year I bought a hydrometer and realized I have never made syrup before. Routinely goes to 220º now.

[acerrubrum]

The other day, near the end of a boil, my digital thermometer read 221.5 (I checked it a second time with a candy thermometer-same thing), but when I tested with a hydrometer it barely registered as syrup- at the lowest end of the scale. I think I'm relying on the hydrometer from now on to tell me when it's done. I'd rather have the consistency of the syrup be the same.

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

Don : we use a digital barometer from marcland which gives barometric pressure and water boiling temp with just the push of a button. This device is not all that expensive 125.00 and it is spot on every time. Water boiling temps change some times when you are boiling even so we adjust the auto draw off for such, but you can do this manually also just keep track of the temp changes and adjust accordingly. Mike

[michiganphil]

We all know that the boiling point fluctuates with atmospheric pressure (different elevation, barometer reading, etc.). I think Don's real question is about the general rule of syrup @ 7.5 deg above boiling point. Why is this the rule?

Like Don, my boiling point of water on most days is 210.5 which matches up with all the fancy math equations for atmospheric pressure. If water has a lower boiling point, shouldn't syrup??
So, following the 7.5 rule, I should have syrup at 218 deg. I have been sugaring for 5 seasons now, and my hydrometer has always said that it's syrup at 221 or 222 deg. I have not had settling, and have never had any syrup spoil, so I trust the hydrometer.

Seems like everyone that has commented so far is AT LEAST 1 deg. past the rule of 7.5 ... I would say spoilage is worse than heavy syrup, SO IF YOU'RE ONLY GOING TO USE A THERMOMETER, SHOULDN'T THE RULE BE 9 OR 10 DEG??

[Ravenseye]

I struggled with this issue myself. Tapped trees for the first time this year and when I was finishing on the stove, I brought the temp up to 7.5 degrees above boiling. Filtered it out and put the "syrup" in mason jars. Trouble was, it was very thin. Very good but very thin. So I checked my digital thermometer and it consistently says that boiling water is 213.5 degrees (and I use that altitude app as well which tells me that it should be around 212 degrees at boil). Figuring that I had under-heated due to an out of whack thermomter, I boiled and filtered again but let the "syrup" get up to 221 degrees. By then, my back ordered hydrometer and refractometer arrived and each of them said I still didn't have syrup. So, last night I boiled and filtered again. Getting it to 222 or even 223 gave me real syrup with a brix of about 67. Now that I've done it, I can "see" the difference in what the syrup looks like when it's nearly done which helps out a lot when I do future batches.

[DonMcJr]

My point is I always check the boiling point with a pot of water and my digital thermometer. It has always matched up with the "Boiling App" on my Smart Phone with calculates the boiling point of water with the current Atmosperic Pressure. Then when I check it at 7.5 degrees above I always have to go another 4 F above the 7.5 before my Hydrometer says it's syrup.

Even last year without the Smart Phone app I would boil a pot of water, check the boiling point of water and that told me 219F was Syrup and it took me til 225 F before the Hydrometer said it was syrup.

So I am consistently not getting Syrup on My hydrometer until 11-13 F above the boiling point of water.

I have even checked the boiling point of water with the digital Thermometer right after I reach Syrup on the Hydrometer and it was still the same as when I started. Hmmm...

[happy thoughts]

Are you checking the temp of the syrup in the cup when testing and making the necessary corrections?
Is your hydrometer clean?
Is the testing cup on a level surface when you're reading it?
Are you gently lowering the hydrometer into the cup, or pushing it in?

If you're following all the right protocols in hydrometer use then trust the hydrometer reading. By now you should have a feel for your thermometer and the temp you need to draw off at even if that temp doesn't agree with what you think it should be.

[michiganphil]

If you're following all the right protocols in hydrometer use then trust the hydrometer reading. By now you should have a feel for your thermometer and the temp you need to draw off at even if that temp doesn't agree with what you think it should be.

That's the whole discussion of this thread. We're confident that we have good syrup (using hydrometer), and we have a "feel" for when it's close to syrup by looking at the temp. (for me around 221 deg). When it seems everyone is way past 7.5 degrees above boiling, why is "the rule" 7.5?

Another topic...Why should we tell a newb that doesn't use a hydrometer or refractometer to go to 7.5, when there's a good chance they're too light? Wouldn't there be less chance of spoilage with heavy syrup vs. too light?

[happy thoughts]

That's the whole discussion of this thread. We're confident that we have good syrup (using hydrometer), and we have a "feel" for when it's close to syrup by looking at the temp. (for me around 221 deg). When it seems everyone is way past 7.5 degrees above boiling, why is "the rule" 7.5?

Another topic...Why should we tell a newb that doesn't use a hydrometer or refractometer to go to 7.5, when there's a good chance they're too light? Wouldn't there be less chance of spoilage with heavy syrup vs. too light?

I understand what you're saying but if you have a hydrometer ... and are using it correctly.... then what's the problem? Go with the hydrometer, the tool that works best and stop worrying about the rest. But that said, there are people that don't use a thermometer correctly and I'll assume the same holds true for hydrometer use which was why I posted some troubleshooting ideas.

As for going with temp alone, even that is just a guideline, a place to start looking for sheeting and body to the syrup. I don't recall anyone that uses temp alone saying that at exactly 7.5F above boiling turn off the heat because you're magically at syrup even assuming your thermometer and how you use it is spot on. It's often more art than science:) And yes, absolutely correct that heavy will always be better than light as far as potential for spoilage. Using temp alone I have yet to have a bottle spoil and I still have a few jars more than 2 years old on my shelf.

[Sapling]

OK, I am a rookie here and so I do not pretend to have the answers to this mystery. I did make an observation/discovery that may be relevant to this discussion. I notice that when trying to get the temperature of the “almost” syrup, if the digital thermometer probe is partially in the steam rising from the boil, it will read significantly (a few degrees) higher than if it is fully submerged. This is odd because it generally does not happen with boiling water where the steam is the same temperature as the water. I suspect that the steam rising from the sap is slightly superheated? Anyone remember their Chemistry / Physics / Thermodynamics well enough to chime in? Are any of you who see a big gap between the 7.5deg “rule” and your Brix readings sure that you were not in the steam? I avoided the steam by switching to progressively smaller pans, keeping them nearly full when measuring temperature for the last couple of degrees. Either way, based on reading this string, I will be ordering a Hydrometer for next year!

[TerryEspo]

Just my two cents, But like many others my digital thermometer reads around 220 or 221 to agree with my hydrometer.

I have never had syrup at 219. Not that I can remember anyway.

I start testing with the hydrometer when the foam starts getting unpredictable, rises fast and I have to turn heat down for a second. When that is happening, I am maybe 5- 10 mins away from hydrometer approved syrup.

If my hydrometer broke, hope not,,,,I would watch for the foam that wants to overboil, then know in 5-10 mins or so, it should be real close.

This is when I am in the house useing a large pot, not at the evaporator.


Terry

[maple flats]

I think many call water to be boiling as soon as there is bubbles in the water rising to the top. Actually it requires the water to be in a hard rolling boil. That takes the temperature higher to get. Get the water as hot as you can and don't let the thermometer lower the temp reading.
Some mention candy thermometers. To ba accurate they need to be either high end digital or upscale mercury. The traditional mercury filled glass cooking "candy thermometer" is not accurate enough.
Personally, I never reset the evaporator thermometers. I draw at 219, then send it to the finisher. There I use a hydrometer, in the finisher. If it shows heavy, I add sap. If light I boil some and retest until right.
Before I had the finisher, I used my accu cup, by th Maple Guys. It comes with a chart to compare temperatures and hydrometer readings. In the finisher, I just have the temp at or above 209 and the reading needs no temperature correction.

[325abn]

How close is the temp of the "syrup" when you are using the hydrometer? Too hot or too cold will have an effect. There are ole timers around here that swear by the way it sheets of a spoon. Most times when this method is double checked with a hydrometer they are correct. This I believe is a dieing art.

Sugar makers have been using 7.5 above boiling H2O as a benchmark for ever.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Do you happen to have the hydrometer that is calibrated for Vt syrup...... that is 66.9 brix. That would then have to be hotter as every other state legal syrup is 66.0 as well as bulk is. I have found with my auto draw I have to boil at 8.7-9.0 degrees above boiling pt of water.

Hope this helps.

[DonMcJr]

Just my two cents, But like many others my digital thermometer reads around 220 or 221 to agree with my hydrometer.

I have never had syrup at 219. Not that I can remember anyway.

I start testing with the hydrometer when the foam starts getting unpredictable, rises fast and I have to turn heat down for a second. When that is happening, I am maybe 5- 10 mins away from hydrometer approved syrup.

If my hydrometer broke, hope not,,,,I would watch for the foam that wants to overboil, then know in 5-10 mins or so, it should be real close.

This is when I am in the house useing a large pot, not at the evaporator.


Terry

Terry I have noticed the exact same thing and I coulda wrote that!

Hydometer Clean and Temp right where it's supposed to be in the Cup. Checked that too.

Question: let say the Syrup in the Hydrometer Cup cools to 190 F while the Hydrometer is still in it...That would make the Hydrometer rise right?

[wiam]

Correct Don

[Rrwws]

Im in my second year of making maple syrup and last year I relied on my themometer, my syrup was inconsistent, some was too watery and thenI over cooked and sugared my sap. This year I bought a hydrometer and test cup. I reccomend this option for anybody thats new to this. My first boil this year came out awesome, syrup was a little thicker than what you buy at the store but the family likes it that way. I did notice that you have to guage the hydrometer between the cold and hot check lines depending on how you like your syrup. In my area if i was just above the cold check on my hydrometer I have syrup, then I can go from there on density.

[jputney]

Bottom Line..... Buy a hydrometer. It's not that expensive, they last for years (if you don't break them) and then you have another tool which will tell you the density of your syrup accurately every time.

[sweetscotty]

The real fact that no one seems to be taking into consideration is that the boiling point of water changes every day, actually will change in just hours (maybe even during a boil) thats why some time your syrup is at 218 or 220 you need to know what the boiling point of water is by keeping a barometer I like the ones that have a second line that says what the boiling point is for the day. There is also electric barometers that with a push of the button it will tell you instantly. So sap is syrup 7.5 degrees above the boiling point of water
also know that your hydrometer reads hot test at 211 degrees which if your testing the syrup out of your draw off and reading before it cools down to 211 then your not doing it right. Maple Guys have a nice accu-hydro cup that has a built in temp gauge, fill watch the temp. when it hits 211 that is when you take your reading.

[DonMcJr]

SweetScotty I did say in my post I check boiling point of watter every day with a pot of water and the application on my smart phone and I checked it again with a pot of water as I was using the hydrometer because I wasn't getting syrup til 221 F and water Rolling Boil was still 210.7 F before starting and when I checked near then end and that's what happened last year too...

Thanks for the info on the Maple Guys Hydrometer accu- Hyrdo cup... gonna buy that and one of their hydrometers and see if it's my Hydrometer.

[seedspreader]

Does anyone have a link to that Accu-cup? I went to look and didn't see it.

[Cindee]

Don,
that is exactly what happened to me today in northern wi. I had a pan of water and it rolling boiled at 209.7, my sap didn't boil until 212 and I finally had syrup at 222.7 using the hydrometer. It is the prettiest syrup we have ever done. I guess I am confused then about this elevation and barometric pressure issue to find the boiling point of water when the syrup still boiled at 212. We cooked 13 gals of sap because we are going to get cold this week and we ended with 3 pints of syrup.

[Cindee]

http://accupitcher.com/Accu-Pour-products.html

hope this helps

[wnybassman]

Does anyone have a link to that Accu-cup? I went to look and didn't see it.

I remember seeing it there last year but don't see it now either.

[DonMcJr]

Here it is...it's out of stock though... http://mapleguys.com/index.php?category=6

[wnybassman]

Here it is...it's out of stock though... http://mapleguys.com/index.php?category=6

LOL I was looking in the hydrometer cup section. Didn't realize it had its own section.

[DonMcJr]

3rd batch today. Water Boiling Point was 211.7 and Hydrometer said Syrup at 222 F...

I ordered another Hydrometer just to double check and to have a spare!

[michiganphil]

Don, I too ordered a second hydrometer for a spare. I was also curious if my first hydrometer could have been off.

I received it just before my last boil, and I used both hydrometers side by side. Both gave exactly the same reading.

I had a rolling boil in water @ 211, syrup @ 221. I checked the sample in the test cup when it had cooled to 211 deg F. I also let the whole pail of syrup cool overnight, and checked again. Syrup cooled to 60 deg F, both hydrometers hit right on the lower red line.

For anyone that insists on only using a thermometer, I would advise to go about 9 degrees above boiling water on that day. But, my personal opinion would be to only use the thermometer to gauge when you should draw off, then quit looking at it and use the hydrometer to finish.

[toquin]

Not done yet

[DonMcJr]

toquin the way it's sheeting it looks to be pretty close!

My 3rd batch last night Water Rolling Boil was at 211.7 F and my Hydrometer said Syrup at 222 F. It kept hitting 222 then back down to 221. When it stayed steady at 222 F it was finally Syrup!

Just read this on another thread...


So, the lesson learned is that you should manually lower the hydrometer to a point that is slightly higher than where you expect it to float. Then slowly release it and let it settle to its final level without sinking lower first. I could have saved myself a lot of time with one simple suggestion- RTM (Read the Manual).

Not sure if I did it that way but I will next time incase that was the issue...

[michiganphil]

Not sure if I did it that way but I will next time incase that was the issue...[/QUOTE]

Don, you don't want your hydrometer bobbing up and down in the liquid. Even in raw sap where the liquid is very thin, some sticks to the stem of the hydrometer "weighing" it down. This will make you think that the syrup is not quite there yet, when it could already be a degree past done.

...another plus to doing it the right way...your hydrometer won't hit the bottom of the cup and break like so many people report.

[TunbridgeDave]

One thing to mention that I had not seen in this thread, is when reading the hydrometer, make sure your reading it at the bottom of the meniscus.

[TerryEspo]

My hydrometer on the box says to never lay it down, even in storage, always have the top up.

Also, I keep mine in HOT water while I am waiting to use it each batch. Yes, I have to dry it off every time, but it is clean with no sap or syrup on it.

Not sure if they are all the same, but that is what mine wants .

Terry

[DonMcJr]

Batch 4 was a bit different. Water boiling was a degree higher, 211.7 F. I boiled down the Sweet from my Evaporator on my Turkey Fryer outside in a cold building. 219.3 shoulda been syrup. Well outside it was sheeting and looked like Syrup at 219 so I turned off the Turkey Fryer and put it in 2 SS Pots and went inside to the kitchen. At 220 I tested it with the hydrometer and it was the same as batch 3 at 220. So I went to a steady 222 and it was past Syrup a few notches. So I added some from the other Pot and as soon as it went once from 220 to 221 I tested and it was perfect.

The 2nd Pot same thing. As soon as hit went up to 221 F once I tested and good.

So the Boiling point was a Degrees higher with batch 4 but it was Syrup a degree lower than when BP was 210.7...

Weird!

[5 Oaks]

I am a rookie. Most of you guys spill more sap in a year than I collect. I boiled to the magical temp of 7+ and it looked like water from the creek. I ended up boiling until the stuff in the pan looked like boiling syrup. I hydro'd it and was pretty close, it was a little light. I have NEVER checked the actual temp of boiling water. But after reading this I know a few new things. I guess I will start checking the real temp of boiling water then compare it to the temp that the Hyrdo says it is done. I will start paying a LOT more attention to the "Science" of this addiction.

Side note: Thanks to everyone in this forum. This year has been a record for me as I have made almost 3 gallons. I have learned tons from you folks. Your sharing of information has been a great help to me. My wife on the other hands does not like you so much. Is there I link to a forum called "200 reason you husband needs a new evaporator"?

[DonMcJr]

Side note: Thanks to everyone in this forum. This year has been a record for me as I have made almost 3 gallons. I have learned tons from you folks. Your sharing of information has been a great help to me. My wife on the other hands does not like you so much. Is there I link to a forum called "200 reason you husband needs a new evaporator"?

I'd say you can tell here you'll get done quicker and go to sleep next to her but even with my Half-Pint that isn't true...but it could help get you the evaporator!:cool:

[5 Oaks]

She knows the sooner the Syrup season is over the sooner I hit the river for the Steelhead. So I am in trouble either way!

I'd love a new half pint, but then I would say I need more taps. Then I would have more sap to boil, thus needing a bigger evaporator, what a cycle!

[DonMcJr]

Did you Say Steelhead????

[PerryW]

Have you ordered your new 5 x 14 evaporator yet?