Bad Boil - Need Advice

[SeanD]

Today I had a really long boil. I was cranking through sap, though not pulling much syrup off. I figured it was due to the change in sugar/grade.

The sap was still above 2% but it was very foamy. When I pulled it from the barrels I left a head on the bucket like a beer for a few seconds. During the boil it was pretty foamy, too. I was building up niter on the draw off side, so I switched sides. I did one draw and then went back to the original side.

Right around the 7th or 8th hour I got uncontrollable foam in the from pan. I got the dreaded dry valve so I ran a little deeper to play it safe. I use canola oil spray for defoamer and up until this afternoon, it's been great. Today, it had no affect. Does too much have the opposite effect?

What's more, the temp back at the original draw off sunk to 215 and sat there and wouldn't budge for hours! It got to the point where every time I fired I had foam spilling out everywhere and I had no syrup to pull off. I finally had to shut down.

I'll clean the pan before I boil again, but I am at a total loss. I can't explain the temp staying so low so long and not getting to draw off, nor the insane foam.

I'd appreciate any advice from anyone who's had any experience with this before.

Thanks,
Sean

[jake22si]

Maybe the thermometer is off a few degrees?

[SeanD]

I thought so, too. But the hydrometer sank like a stone. I'd also add that I was nearing the 200 gallon mark on sap going in when things got sketchy.

Sean

[thackerymaple]

I having a similar problem, ran about 200 gallons today, it is in cool down now, I have a 2x5 home made continues flow with 7 channels, Cant seem to get a good nearly finished draw off the discharge end. I've been cutting down the level, I down to about 2". I've been reading a lot about some running 1" to 1 1/2", I think I'm running two deep of a level and I running out of sap before I can get a good draw. This is my first year trying a continuous flow, last year I was batch 6 gallon at a time. Looks like I'll be batching this tomorrow afternoon.

[bowtie]

i get a lot foaming but do not use foamer. i usually do not try to finish on my evap. but when i do i get the same thing, it is very hard for me to get at finish temp and keep it there, i think in my case it isjust becuase not having seperate syrup pan allows too much unfinished to enter last section.

[grinch5010]

I had the same propblem yesterday on my 2x4 drop flue. Boiled all day, almost 200 gal and could never get to syrup. Foamed like hell, I could swear the front pan was syrup for hours but temp said it wasnt. That was confirmed by the hydro when it sank like a rock. Finally I pushed the pan and will finish everything from the front pan on the gas burner today. How come it just wouldnt turn to syrup in the front pan? We drew off normal draws the day before.

[psparr]

Had the same issue this weekend. Wend through 270 gallons on a 2x6

Temp sat at 215 for 4 hours! Ran out of sap and within 5 mins shot up to 220

I don't have a sap hydrometer so not sure of sugar.

Pulled off about 8 gallons of really dark stuff that's a good ways from syrup yet. Going to finish it all the next couple days inside.

[SeanD]

I feel better knowing this has happened to other people - on the same day! I even had the temperature jump to 219 once I decided to stop firing. This is really weird. Maybe the trees have had it with us.

Let me know how the finishing goes for you guys and if it foams up like crazy again. Mine is sitting in a bucket and the front pan is getting a nice vinegar soak. Normally I'd put it back on and pick up where I left off, but if it is mutant sweet I might keep it aside and resweeten the pans from scratch.

I have almost 5 gallons from the front pan, so it's a bit too much for me to finish inside on the stove, so it will have to wait until the end of the season batch boil to put it back on.

Good luck!
Sean

[Ausable]

Have never experienced this problem and hope I never do. Did anyone check the sugar content of their sap at the start of the boil. Sounds almost like you were all boiling water instead of maple sap. Did the sap seem normal? Almost like some airborne spore or yeast got into the sap and ate the sugar before the boil started. I know in wine making during the final fermentation - the air and what it carries is kept from the wine with a fermation lock or bubbler so the carbon dioxide can excape - but nothing can enter and stop the fermentation and destroy the alcohol. I realize this is entirely different - but could something be going after the sugar in the sap.....Calling Dr. Tim! -------Mike--------

[psparr]

When I shut down the evaporator the temp was at 216 at the draw off. The sap pan was just that, sap. Started finishing on the stove tonight, and tested with hydrometer. It sank like it was water. Was doing about a 2 gallon batch in a large stock pot. In less that half hour it was reading 35! I thinned out with some sweet but what the heck. The hydrometer was clean, so it shouldn't have given a false reading. This is just really strange.

[SeanD]

I thought the same thing about water going in, so I checked the sugar of the sap going in. It was 2.5% minus a little for temp correction.

psparr, was that 35 Brix or Baume? Did it foam up again? How much syrup did you end up with from the original 2 gallons of sweet?

I should go check the density of the sweet I pulled off and set aside. It probably won't be too high b/c I flooded the pan during the cool down, but it makes me wonder how much sugar I have in there. With that much sap and time cooking, it's gotta be in there somewhere.

Sean

[psparr]

I thought the same thing about water going in, so I checked the sugar of the sap going in. It was 2.5% minus a little for temp correction.

psparr, was that 35 Brix or Baume? Did it foam up again? How much syrup did you end up with from the original 2 gallons of sweet?

I should go check the density of the sweet I pulled off and set aside. It probably won't be too high b/c I flooded the pan during the cool down, but it makes me wonder how much sugar I have in there. With that much sap and time cooking, it's gotta be in there somewhere.

Sean

Just got done going through it all. The 2 gallons was just the first batch. I started with around 6 gallons and ended up with about 5.

It was Baume.

It didn't foam up surprisingly. But in the evaporator it was foaming bad. But looked like almost syrup foam. Really shiny small bubbles.

Unless its just late season syrup.
Last weeks was a real light amber and this stuff was pretty dark. And the filters! They were covered in a almost burnt caramel looking slimy gunk. I've had plenty of dirty black niter before, but nothing like this.

Tastes great by the way.

[SeanD]

Wow! From 6 to 5 and it tastes great. That makes it worth it in the end. I'm inspired to put mine back over heat, now. Thanks for sharing. I hope I get the same results.

Sean

[CastorMaple]

Hey guys,

I had the same issue yesterday. I haven't checked the sugar yet in the sap (first thing this morning). I boiled 110 gal for most of the day on my small 2x5 flat pan setup and called it quits when I started falling asleep. I couldn't get past 217 in the front pan. I ended up shutting the valve from the back pan and it went up to 219 quickly. I drew off all of that (1 gal) and then emptied the back pan which i'll start with this morning. the whole setup got a vinegar soak last night. I just can't figure why it wouldn't get to syrup after 10 hours!! Lots of foam in the front pan too, I kept opening the door to cool it off when it was about to boil over. Not sure if it's the sap (low sugar) or how I'm operating the rig? But if it's got sugar in it, and I'm boiling it down, it should make syrup...no? :confused:

Adding injury to insult, I put the hydrometer in the cup full of what I thought was syrup, and it sank quick enough to break. Nice. :mad:

I'll get back at it today....buckets are full again.

[nymapleguy607]

I had the same problem last night minus the spiking temp. Most likely because the sugar was so low 1.5% for me that and there was a front moving through. The first 100 gals went through really fast then the last seemed to drag, and the syrup pan wanted to foam more. I checked the draw off thermometer and the boiling point of water dropped by a tenth of a degree but it was enough to slow things down.

[michiganphil]

This is really weird. I had the exact same thing yesterday. I boil on a 2x5 flat pan, continuous flow setup.

My sap was 3%. I started the day with sweet pans, and was ready for a draw pretty quick. I drew off until the temp. dropped a degree, then closed the valve. After that I fired, and kept on as usual. Then the temp dropped to 215, lots of foam, and stayed there for the rest of the night (3 or 4 hours). The drawoff compartment temp. was 215, the next one was 214, and the 3rd was at 213.5, so I had a gradient but it just wouldn't finish. The way it looked and acted in the pan I could swear it was syrup, but the hydrometer would just barely stay upright in the cup.

When I shut down, I pulled 2 separate pails, about a gal. each to reset the gradient tonight. Hopefully after shutting down with flooded pans, I can re-establish the gradient tonight.

[Tweegs]

Well isn’t this odd.

Pretty similar situation for me on Sunday.

Ran most of the morning quite normal, taking small draws every 10 to 15 minutes. Towards the end I swear I ran through 60 gallons of sap (2 hours) without getting a draw, kept blaming my draw off temp probe, moving it around, because it sure looked like syrup in the pan. Checked with a backup digital thermometer and both agreed. Was using far more defoamer than normal, but was keeping the foam in check.

Ran low on sap and quit firing, soon as the fire started to die the temp shot up, pulled off nearly a gallon.

[michiganphil]

Well, I'm still not sure what was going on but...
Last night I fired up and got going. Brought it all to a boil, then added the sweet back to the drawoff side to get the gradient back. Within a half hour I was ready for a draw, much like Monday.
To my surprise, I cracked the drawoff valve and let it run...and run...and run. Pulled a little over 2 gallons, then everything seemed to run like normal.

For some reason, it just got stuck on Monday leaving me a huge first draw last night.

[thackerymaple]

I went ahead and batched the evaporator last night, ran out of sap, had ran about 270 gallon of sap and pulled off nearly 6 gallon of syrup ready to be finished off on the grill, expect about 5 gallon when I'm done. I had to pour out about 40 gallon of sap the other day, had turned yellow, probally from the rain, the weather is getting real crazy around here. I'm pulling the taps, will end up with about 15 gallon of syrup for the year. I'm real pleased, figured I'll quit for the year while it is still a hobby, do not want it to turn into a job. Good luck to everybody and see ya next year.

[Greenwich Maple Man]

I would check and make sure your evaporaters are level.

[miner1]

I have had a similiar problem, excessive foam and not ready to draw. After about 6 boils and a total of 280 gals of sap and several draws, the sweet side of the pan started to well up with foam, and not get to the draw off point. I stopped adding sap, cooked it down to 3/4", and finished it over the gas in a steam pan. I had some niter build in the pan up and attrubutied it to that, I can't change my flow direction (only one draw off point). I also think I may have been trying to get the syrup to close to finished in the pan. Next few boils I'm taking it off early and finishing it on the gas burner. Its easier to clean the niter out of the steam pan than the evaporator.

[whitetail farms]

hust happen to me boiled 3 hours sweeten the pain on sunday came back today to finnish of boil 5 hour through 80 gallons of sap and didnt draw off a thing but whats in the syrup pan now looks real dark think im just gonna pull it and finnish on the gas stove and try i again when more sap comes my way

[SeanD]

I still don't know what happened, but I've ruled out something atmospheric on the weekend. Tonight I put the sweet back on and like you michiganphil, I had a huge draw within an hour. As I continued to boil, the foam built up again, but it was manageable. Then in successive draws, I could literally see the foaming reduce in the inlet side of the front pan and move toward the draw off. Eventually, the front pan boiled beautifully again.

It's a head scratcher. I'd conclude that I needed to wash out a barrel or that somebody whizzed in one of my buckets if it wasn't for it happening to other people at the same time in different regions. Very weird.

All's well that ends well. Thanks to the big draw at the start of the boil tonight, I ended up with over 4 gallons from 120 gallons in a little over 5 hours. I'll never see numbers like that again.

If anyone figures this out, please share.

Thanks,
Sean

[Tweegs]

I ran 4 hours yesterday, processed 120 gallons of sap, drew off just under 3 gallons of syrup (medium), with nary a hitch.
Everything worked as advertised.

I don't get it.

[lpakiz]

It seems that excess foam is a common demoninator here. Do you guys think that the sections are being diluted because the foam caused "back flow" thru the cutouts in each section? This was being discussed in another thread. Some found that the solution was to restrict those cutouts with a sheet of SS and a clip of sorts, and someone else said they used their scoop in front of the cutout to make the hole smaller. They cautioned to experiment in moderation, small changes at a time. And special caution when drawing off, so that liquid can replenish as you draw. Someone said that years ago, some pans had an adjustable gate built right in.

[Waynehere]

I know this is an older thread, but in the 10 years I have boiled, this has happened to me 3 times, including this past season right about the same time in March. Every time it happens, I discover there is a change in the atmospheric pressure which causes this to happen, usually some cold front coming through. Both my neighbor who boils on a 4x12 and my 2x6 experienced this. The next day everything was back to normal. Just my observation.

[RC Maple]

Somehow I missed this thread until seeing it this morning. In my "vast" two years of experience this has happened to me also. I'm not sure if it always accompanied lots of foam - it's been too long ago now, but I have experienced things seemingly going well and then the regular draws coming to a stop for long periods of time. I have seen what looks like syrup allowing the hydrometer to drop like a stone and taking forever to get to syrup. It is a head scratcher while it's happening but after a while it seems to clear up and return to normal. Don't know how I didn't see this thread on here before but I'm glad to see it isn't unique to my sugar shack.