Growing pains - What is the best way to grow the operation

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Hello Maple professionals, I have a question about the best way to grow my operation. I am looking to add 3-5K taps this summer to my 1400. The problem is that I need a bigger or more efficient arch, a bigger vac, bigger releaser and most importantly I need an RO. I can take the syrup produced this year and put towards storage and lines. But still won't be enough for a 600 GPH RO.

To the question. I have access to tap an additional 120+/- acres, would it make sense to get the equipment first then run the lines? Or should I run the lines this year and sell what Sap I can't boil with my set up?

Thanks for any help.

[jmayerl]

Sitting with a big huge evaporator and RO with a small amount of sap would not be a great use of money. Sitting with way more sap than you can handle, at least it can be sold to someone else near by.

[Four D Acre Farms]

Thats a great question, I am looking at the same type of situation. I am at 1000 taps with the potential of between 5 to 10 thousand but the expense is large. I am talking with my supplier and pricing out a evaporator that will run with as small as 3500 to 4000 taps with a RO but the key seems to me to be the RO and making sure it can be expanded to handle more sap as the number of taps goes up. The RO is a must for that size operation, it allows the use of a smaller evap. than with out. An RO seems to be the first purchase in your case if your boiling 1400 taps of raw sap, from what i have heard you should be able to boil the 300 taps with your rig and an ro taking it 8 to 10 before your boil it. Good luck and i feel your pain in making these descions

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Thanks, I know the RO will make all the difference. But how does one get an RO which is about 10-15K without 10-15K? Are there maple wholesalers that will take Syrup, cash and future syrup for an RO? I think what I have to do is run the lines, get the storage capacity and sell the sap til I can afford and RO. I just am wondering how all the large producers got there. I love producing syrup and being in the woods, it is my religion. I just need to figure out how to make enough money to grow my operation so I can do it full time.

[morningstarfarm]

having just gonwe through a major expansion this is what i learned...First thing go to your local nrcs and get the grant information for their maple equipment..then apply immediately...they bought me a 1200 gph ro and a steam away...then start putting in lines as fast as you can...the grants are sized by your CURRENT number of taps...and the engineers come out and go through your operation...was a very easy and pleasant experience considering that it was the government...

then go to farm credit east and talk to them about one of their maple syrup loans...they financed most of my expansion with a pretty unique package. I have to make one principal payment each year on june 1, and a monthly interest payment which is around 80 bucks...their rates were right at 5% fixed for a 7 year loan...was pretty painless..no business plan needed and they used the sugaring equipment as collateral...Now that being said...they will financew ar ro, arch, releasers, vac or any other hard piece of equipment with no problem...financing for tubing a new bush is much more difficult...they cant reposess it if things go south...so they want to have enough other stuff to cover that...

I hope this helps if you need more info or anything let me know...It is pretty exciting to say the least...Enjoy..
It's not often in life things like this happen...

[Starting Small]

What is a nrcs? Thanks,
-Dave

[Dill]

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/site/national/home/


I'm talking to them about a new timber plan and some timber stand improvement grants. My plan is to cut some timber and use that to pay for some upgraded equipment.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

having just gonwe through a major expansion this is what i learned...First thing go to your local nrcs and get the grant information for their maple equipment..then apply immediately...they bought me a 1200 gph ro and a steam away...then start putting in lines as fast as you can...the grants are sized by your CURRENT number of taps...and the engineers come out and go through your operation...was a very easy and pleasant experience considering that it was the government...

then go to farm credit east and talk to them about one of their maple syrup loans...they financed most of my expansion with a pretty unique package. I have to make one principal payment each year on june 1, and a monthly interest payment which is around 80 bucks...their rates were right at 5% fixed for a 7 year loan...was pretty painless..no business plan needed and they used the sugaring equipment as collateral...Now that being said...they will financew ar ro, arch, releasers, vac or any other hard piece of equipment with no problem...financing for tubing a new bush is much more difficult...they cant reposess it if things go south...so they want to have enough other stuff to cover that...

I hope this helps if you need more info or anything let me know...It is pretty exciting to say the least...Enjoy..
It's not often in life things like this happen...Chris, your right on the money about Farm Credit East. I dealt with them this year also. Did a huge expansion. Another sugarhouse, evap., ro, vac,3500 more taps, the whole nine yards. My loan is sructured so I took 60% in long term loan so I could pay for building and woods: then the rest as you said, that I make the principal pymnt. June 1. Very convenient and easy to deal with. Neil

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Thanks morning Star, that's the information I need. I think I can afford to run most of the lines using this years production and my day job. I will contact the NRCS right away to see about grants. I have heard of efficiency grants before. Is that what you did? And how long from submitted application til the engineers were onsite making an inspection? I just want to know how long I have to run the taps before they would come.

I didn't know farm credit would structure a loan like that. I think I can even swing that. This is very helpful and gives me optimism.

[unc23win]

I am looking into the NRCS stuff myself. I would love to eb able to do some expanding and I would also love the once a year payment.

[northwoods_forestry]

Also look to the Farm Service Agency if you'll be taking out loan money. We financed our new 3x10 last year through them at 1.5% and they were very accommodating in structuring the loan payments to work for us.

[Starting Small]

...First thing go to your local nrcs and get the grant information for their maple equipment..then apply immediately...they bought me a 1200 gph ro and a steam away...
This sounds too good to be true, so they assess your operation and give you money in the form of a grant and you do not have to pay them back?
-Dave

[shane hickey]

I agree usually you have to match dollar for dollar on a grant. Or have to prove you have a certain amount of taps and register those woods with the asf office i just filled the application out on line to see what happens but cant get sap from an oak tree.

[northwoods_forestry]

Others may know more about this than I do, by my understanding is:

1. The NRCS cost share funding is for improvements that increase energy efficiency, so for us that includes newer more efficient evaporators, RO's and steamaways.
2. This is cost share funding, so I think you need to cover at least 1/2 of the cost.
3. The funding is competitive and there is a lengthy application process at the end of which there is no guarantee that you will be awarded the funding.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I think you're right, it's a 50/50 cost share. I've been looking into the NRCS website and it appears the deadline for Applications must be received by 4:00 p.m. EDT on March 22, 2013. It'll cover efficiency improvements but I'm a little dizzy after reading through the information I found here (http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb1082287.pdf). Maybe this is the wrong information. I think I'll be better served by speaking with someone directly. I'm more interested in a loan that allows for me to make interest payments monthly and a one time principal payment in June. Especially when you consider that a 50 % match for what I need (new Vac, releaser, RO and Arch rebuild) would be 15K+. This doesn't include new lines, SS drums, Sap storage, larger Filter press, larger caner, etc,etc... I think a small loan with good terms would be perfect since the increased production would pay most of the Principal after the first couple years. For those of you who did this, I looked into it and couln't find an office or lending officer for VT? It looks like there are several offices in NY and some in NH and ME. But none in VT? Or am I just not finding it?

[northwoods_forestry]

FSA Offices in White River Jct. That's where the loan officers are located.

http://offices.sc.egov.usda.gov/locator/app?service=page/ServiceCenterSummary&stateCode=50&cnty=027

You'll want to talk with George Button. Farm Credit is right next door to the FSA offices in White River Jct, so you could stop in and see them as well.

Good Luck!

[Dill]

Not sure on maple operating loans through FSA. I know when we bought our farm this summer, to get the FSA loan I had to prove that I was denied through a commercial lender. Which wasn't a problem due to acreage. After wading through mts of paperwork, they approved us but with the farm bill hold up didn't have the money to fund the loan. Which is why we went through Farm Credit, which was much more user friendly.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Good to know. Where is the Farm Credit office/loan officer located?

[bees1st]

You might also try Farm Buerau Bank. They financed my new evaporator at a great rate. Applied online, approved the next day.

[Starting Small]

Scribner-Did you end up adding the 3-5K taps this Summer?
-Dave

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Hey Dave,

Sadly no, I blew my wad on a new to me arch and 3 hp Busch w/ VFD. I also leased 84 acres w/ 3-6000 taps on it but I can't afford to tap it this year. I agreed to lease it knowing I may not be able to tap it this year to secure the relationship with the landowner. I still hope to get 500-1000 in before the season to go with the 1500 I already have. We will see. $$. I wasn't able to get a loan w Farm credit as my credit stinks at the moment. Two years ago I had to give my apartment building back to the bank and was stuck with the balance. It was my fault I let deadbeat tenants drag me down financially. I will never own an apartment building again in VT unless they allow you to throw deadbeats out on the street. In the end they owed 18K in rent. Used to be you could make a call and have some guys show up and amazingly the people would leave.

Anyway, I am in rebuilding mode with 184 acres to tap and another 200 acres I could add in as the landowner is open to a lease to, a 6*16 arch w/ steam away and high vac with only 1500 taps. It is driving me nuts, but is the way it is. I will get in more taps, just a matter of how many. Time is running out.

In hindsight maybe I should have waited on the vac and put in the taps this year. I could have bought a flood kit for my Delaval and saved 3-4K on the vac. I sure hope the Busch is worth it. I think it will be as I get the taps I want.

Thanks for asking,
Ben

[Howard]

Ben, Do you have your main lines up?

[Starting Small]

Hey Dave,

Sadly no, I blew my wad on a new to me arch and 3 hp Busch w/ VFD. I also leased 84 acres w/ 3-6000 taps on it but I can't afford to tap it this year. I agreed to lease it knowing I may not be able to tap it this year to secure the relationship with the landowner. I still hope to get 500-1000 in before the season to go with the 1500 I already have. We will see. $$. I wasn't able to get a loan w Farm credit as my credit stinks at the moment. Two years ago I had to give my apartment building back to the bank and was stuck with the balance...
Thanks for asking,
Ben
That is awful that folks would take advantage of you like that, unfortunately I think it happens all the time. The potential to grow your number of taps by that amount is exciting, I will be eager to watch your growth!
-Dave

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

No mains up yet, I have laid them out mostly with tapping. I better get on it soon before the snow gets any deeper.

Ben

[Howard]

Scrib, If you need a free hand setting things up, let me know. I'm down the road from you. MRM

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Thanks Howard for the offer. I am pretty independent and like to do everything myself. I have been at it pretty steady the last month and am gaining.

I wanted to report back on growing pains. Even if the bank, or Farm Credit or other lending agencies won't help you, don't give up.

I kept working my other job and took nearly all of my income from that and invested it into Sugaring this year. I won't be able to get in the 4000 taps I wanted, but was able to get a new vac, arch, lease 84 acres and add 5-600 taps to get me close to 2,000 for 2014.

It is a pain to always need something and not have the money for it, but what is nice is that I don't have any payments on my equipment. This summer I will sell some syrup in bulk to get more material for the rest of the taps I want.

Never give up, tap em if you got em.

Ben

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Here I am a year later and figured I would update on the pains of growing the sugaring operation. Last year went well and just that little bit of success created a monster. I tried to get financing and grants, but when you owe uncle sam, people tend not to remember my name after we hang up the phone. So growth has to come in the form of cash or by selling something. I decided I needed a new tank, RO, releaser, and filter press to keep up with everything. And needed to upgrade the power to a primary connection. Plus I felt the need to reach out to each land owner that adjoins my property with an offer to lease this coming year or the next. The equipment got ordered, the lease offers went out and to my surprise, they all said yes. Now I am scrambling to pull it all together on a tight budget. In the end, it will all work out I hope, but in the mean time, the amount of money it takes to get everything set up puts one hell of a damper on the "going out to dinner" budget to say the least. After a few years of doing this I think back to how much I have spent and what that could have done for my family. Sacrifice is the name of my game. And I am winning. I know it is a means to the end, and the end is in sight. However, there have been days when my longtime girlfriend asks when we will build our house. It's getting harder and harder to tell her after the business is established. But for now she is buying what I am selling.

Ben

[eagle lake sugar]

Unfortunately, the sad reality today is that the apartment building owner has no rights. I considered buying apartments, but chose not to for that precise reason. I deal with deadbeats all the time and see how they game the system. I'm glad you've kept your chin up and are still plugging away at it!

[spud]

Very well said. Keep your chin up Ben because all your hard work will pay off. Once you have all that land set up money will start pouring in. The dream home will happen in time. All good things are worth waiting for.

Spud

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

you are smart to reconsider being a land lord. It's not easy to kick a family out even if they are ruining your personal credit. Unless you have the ability to utilize a property management company for running the building, I wouldn't recommend buying one, especially in VT. I thought at the time for a young man who didn't finish college to buy an investment property at 25 with earned money, that I was doing the right thing. Lesson learned.

Trees can't steal from me, so that why Maple seems like the right course. They can lie about how much they will give each year I guess. But, now I only have to worry about squirrels stealing.

Ben

[Maple Man 85]

The thread is a bit old but the information is really good.

Here is my situation I currently run 200 taps on bucket I recently purchased the property we make sugar on and am looking to expand based on everything I figure somewhere between 3500-4000 taps. First I am going to manage the stand for sugaring and use some of the timber to offset my cost but there will much more as I need bigger everything. Does anyone know if the grant program still available???

[325abn]

Grants for maple equipment?? That sounds crazy!

[highlandcattle]

I am feeling the need to put my 2 cents in. I'm sure there will be angry responses. But, this is a forum,so... Grants are tax payer dollars that our illustrious government decides in their infinite wisdom to dole out to certain "groups,organizations,etc." I have real problems with this. Why should I be forced to pay for something I don't believe in or approve of? No one needs anything that bad by taking from someone else. When we decided to build our farm,no one said,"here let me give you money because you want that". My husband and I worked. Worked really hard at our ages to get what we needed,no hand outs. This was our business,no body else's. Those"grants" supposedly given out for energy improvement at one time were rediculous. They only benefited a select few,who I'm sure could have bought stuff on their own. It didn't do anything for us or most anyone else. If you have a dream,great,so did we. Nobody else needs to buy into it. Start with what you can afford and go from there. This is still America, anything is possible with hard work,otherwise its called Socialism, which as the countries that live this way,don't do so well. Now I'm pretty sure there will be angry comments. This is my opinion. Just like the idiots running for the highest office. Notice how they get crazed followers? By promising FREe! Free college,free everything. Duh, where does the money come from?! The few who may actually work,to support the many who sit back and take?! Oh yeah, welfare for the masses. Welcome to the end of this great Nation. Climbing off my soapbox now.

[psparr]

I am feeling the need to put my 2 cents in. I'm sure there will be angry responses. But, this is a forum,so... Grants are tax payer dollars that our illustrious government decides in their infinite wisdom to dole out to certain "groups,organizations,etc." I have real problems with this. Why should I be forced to pay for something I don't believe in or approve of? No one needs anything that bad by taking from someone else. When we decided to build our farm,no one said,"here let me give you money because you want that". My husband and I worked. Worked really hard at our ages to get what we needed,no hand outs. This was our business,no body else's. Those"grants" supposedly given out for energy improvement at one time were rediculous. They only benefited a select few,who I'm sure could have bought stuff on their own. It didn't do anything for us or most anyone else. If you have a dream,great,so did we. Nobody else needs to buy into it. Start with what you can afford and go from there. This is still America, anything is possible with hard work,otherwise its called Socialism, which as the countries that live this way,don't do so well. Now I'm pretty sure there will be angry comments. This is my opinion. Just like the idiots running for the highest office. Notice how they get crazed followers? By promising FREe! Free college,free everything. Duh, where does the money come from?! The few who may actually work,to support the many who sit back and take?! Oh yeah, welfare for the masses. Welcome to the end of this great Nation. Climbing off my soapbox now.

Amen sister.

[abbott]

I am feeling the need to put my 2 cents in. I'm sure there will be angry responses. But, this is a forum,so... Grants are tax payer dollars that our illustrious government decides in their infinite wisdom to dole out to certain "groups,organizations,etc." I have real problems with this. Why should I be forced to pay for something I don't believe in or approve of?

Ideologically I have similar thoughts. I'd prefer lower taxes and fewer handouts (to me or anyone else.) But seeing as I am obligated to pay the taxes, I don't have a problem taking the handouts. I am 31 with a wife and two little boys, own my own farm with no debts, and have a decent chunk of money in the bank. Needless to say, I work really hard. But I got a NRCS grant that paid for a hoophouse. And as long as I'm poor enough for the gov't to pay the medical bills for my boys, I'll let them. Do I say no to the Earned Income Credit? Nope. And I'm not above getting funding to upgrade my evaporator efficiency. Would I be able to farm without the handouts? Sure, especially if the lack of handouts corresponded to lower tax obligations. I'd vote to get rid of these programs any day. But the rules have been set, like them or not. I don't like them, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to play by them.

[abbott]

Does anyone know if the grant program still available??? I think so. Contact NRCS. Here's the site for Wisconsin. http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/site/wi/home/

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

The thread is a bit old but the information is really good.

Here is my situation I currently run 200 taps on bucket I recently purchased the property we make sugar on and am looking to expand based on everything I figure somewhere between 3500-4000 taps. First I am going to manage the stand for sugaring and use some of the timber to offset my cost but there will much more as I need bigger everything. Does anyone know if the grant program still available???

These grants are administered at the state level but are federal monies. Each state decides its own criteria. Most specify that the grant is to improve energy efficiency, not to expand your operation.

[GeneralStark]

There are enough threads going with the "handout" debate being thrown around so because this is a useful and interesting thread perhaps it could stay on topic?

While there are grants available for sugarmakers, mainly for energy efficiency upgrades and some for rural development, it is very difficult to start up a new operation with these funds. Generally you need to be operating to improve your efficiency. If you have nothing to establish a baseline, you will not just get money to set up an operation.

There are also private foundations that give grants that very rarely are used by sugarmakers, but this is generally for business development, or development of new products. Some states also have grant programs for business development, product development, or value adding equipment/infrastructure development.

There are programs through the FSA (USDA) for low interest loans however that can be a very useful tool for sugarmakers for start-up.

[Maple Man 85]

Ideologically I have similar thoughts. I'd prefer lower taxes and fewer handouts (to me or anyone else.) But seeing as I am obligated to pay the taxes, I don't have a problem taking the handouts. I am 31 with a wife and two little boys, own my own farm with no debts, and have a decent chunk of money in the bank. Needless to say, I work really hard. But I got a NRCS grant that paid for a hoophouse. And as long as I'm poor enough for the gov't to pay the medical bills for my boys, I'll let them. Do I say no to the Earned Income Credit? Nope. And I'm not above getting funding to upgrade my evaporator efficiency. Would I be able to farm without the handouts? Sure, especially if the lack of handouts corresponded to lower tax obligations. I'd vote to get rid of these programs any day. But the rules have been set, like them or not. I don't like them, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to play by them.

I'm in the exact same boat as you abbott, 31, 2 kids, working full time plus running a maple business. We pay the taxes why not use the programs??? I don't like how much I'm taxed but if I can get some of it back through making my work easier through machinery improvements why not??? That would be like not rezoning your sugarbush to agriculture to save taxes if you have the tree density why not???

What I have issues with are folks that are able to work but figured out how to sit on disability because they won't want to contribute to society.

[Maple Man 85]

I think so. Contact NRCS. Here's the site for Wisconsin. http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/site/wi/home/

Thank you for the site link abbot, feel free to pm me.