Vacuum booster

[Darkhollow Sugar Bush]

Can you use a booster with one line and not with wet/dry lines?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Yes, it acts as a reservoir for the vacuum.

[spud]

Can you use a booster with one line and not with wet/dry lines?

You can but make sure the line is big enough for both. Even on just 500 taps or so I would want my single line to be a least 1 1/2 inches. Some might think that is over kill but CFMs to the trees is everything.

Spud

[Thad Blaisdell]

For 500 trees 1.5 inch line is way overkill. Depending on distance of course. The only thing that will be gained by using large pipe is warm sap. 500 taps, most circumstances will require a single 1 inch line.

[spud]

A one inch mainline can only give you 4 CFMs at 1000 feet no matter how big the pump. If you are allowing sap and vacuum to flow in the one mainline (without a dry line)you will cut your CFMs possibly in half giving you just 2CFMs to the farthest section of your woods (at best). If you have 500 taps on that mainline you need 5+ CFMs to get the job done right (According to Cornell's Steve Childs). Out of my booster's most of my mainlines are under 700 feet long. I have 6 booster's in the woods and 33 mainlines coming out of them. My average on a mainline is about 197 taps with about 2-3 CFMs on each line. According to Cornell this is right where I want to be for max production looking to get .5+ GPT. If a person sets their woods up right they are giving themselves the best chance of getting .5+ GPT and getting the most money in return for their investment.

Spud

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Depending on distance as Thad said, and also % slope. The more slope, the faster sap exits mainlines, leaving more room for vac.(also tight mains with no sags for sap to pool) With a single line and 500 taps, if the run was more than 1000' I would run 1.25". If less than 1000' I would run 1". Neil

[Darkhollow Sugar Bush]

Could someone post some pictures of your vacuum boosters all plumbed in? Thanks

[Sunday Rock Maple]

So does a dry line make a booster moot, or would a booster actually add to a wet/dry lines effectivness?

[spud]

So does a dry line make a booster moot, or would a booster actually add to a wet/dry lines effectivness?

I feel the booster helps maintain my vacuum level. What I have found is when my releaser dumps I have no back flow (whats so ever) in my lateral lines. A booster does not increase your level of vacuum it only help to maintain your vacuum. A few weeks ago when I got some sap one of my boosters only had 18 inches of vacuum on it but the other side of my woods had 27. It turned out that I missed two lateral lines (10 taps) so I had a major leak. Although because of my 125CFM two stage pump and booster's throughout the woods the other lines were able to maintain high vacuum. This is another reason why I have 1 1/2 inch wet/dry lines going to all booster's. I also installed a back-up wet line to each lower booster that is 1 1/4 inch. Now if one wet line freezes for any reason the other wet line will take over so sap does not have to come down the dry line restricting vacuum. Some may call this overkill but I want as much vacuum and CFMs to the far sections of my woods at all times. I am not sure if I could have maintained high vacuum in other parts of the woods had I had a manifold set-up. I am not bashing the manifold system because I know it works. I do think the booster's are better because checking for leaks requires less walking. I just drive up to my 6 boosters and check the vacuum gauge. If my vacuum gauge reads 27-28 I know I have no big leaks. I will then look into the booster to watch the sap coming in from each line. If there is any spraying or surging from a line coming in I know there is a leak somewhere on that mainline.

Spud

[jimbison]

help me understand the booster I know that it does not increase vacuum but acts as a reserve but if running line from the booster at 1000ft you only have about 4cfms on a wet dry set up with 1 inch line would the booster allow you to have more cfms past it on the 1 inch mainline or would you only maintane the 4cfm

[spud]

help me understand the booster I know that it does not increase vacuum but acts as a reserve but if running line from the booster at 1000ft you only have about 4cfms on a wet dry set up with 1 inch line would the booster allow you to have more cfms past it on the 1 inch mainline or would you only maintane the 4cfm

I run 1 1/2 inch wet/dry lines to every booster. Each 1 1/2 main carries 21 CFM so I have 42 CFM When both are dry. This year I ran a 1 1/4 inch back-up wet line that carries another 13 CFM. So going to my first booster that is 1000 feet from my sugarhouse I have 55 CFMs. The one inch mainlines going out of the booster are all less then 1000 feet (somewhere between 500-900 feet) According to the charts if you are at 55 CFMs you could run a one inch mainline 1000 feet and have 8 CFMs (dry). Because this mainline is used for sap and vacuum transfer you only would have about 4 CFMs. I posted last week saying 1000 feet of one inch mainline will only give you 4 CFM when if fact it gives you 8 CFM dry (sorry). You could get the same CFMs with a smaller pump but your system would have to be tight (no leaks what so ever). The reason Cornell suggest you double the amount of CFMs is because nobody has a leak free system. So the more CFMs you can have to the far ends of your woods the better it will be when leaks appear in different spots in the woods. It has been said that some people loose half their CFMs between the pump and the releaser due to under sizing their pipe. The dealers will tell you that the general rule of thumb is 10 CFM per 1000 taps. The studies at Cornell suggest 20 CFMs per 1000 taps would be much better because they take into consideration CFM loss along the way to the far ends of the woods.

Spud

[jimbison]

so if I am running 1 inch wet dry lines with 4 inch pvc mini boosters at each mainline entrance with 100-200 taps per mainline with the wet dry lines running 800 ft longest mainline coming into the wet dry is about 600 ft at the end of the wet dry would I be ok about 200 taps on this line 800 total on this section

[maple flats]

vacuum booster is a misnomer, it should be called a vacuum evener or vacuum equalizer.

[unc23win]

jimbison

With a wet dry system you can have 1000 taps on a 3/4" wet line with a 1" dry line according to my book I am looking at. Spud was telling you about the CFMs which if you limit your CFMs too much you might not get the vacuum level you desire. In a wet dry system if it is leak free you will have vacuum it just depends on how much you want. Some people are ok with 15" some want 20" some try for 28". I think you will be fine as long as you don't under size your line 3/4" should work and 1" would be a little better. I myself prefer 1". As you read Spud uses 1 1/2" he is running very high vacuum and knows what he is talking about.

[Moser's Maple]

this is funny..........cause we quote steve childs this......steve childs that.......
well just got over spending the day with Steve and he stated that if your tubing is set up correctly......then don't waste your money on a booster.
he also stated that energy needed to go from 20 to 28 in of vacuum on the end of your line isn't worth the little bit of extra gain you get in sap quanity.
it's all about slope % ....i agree with that statement..... i haven't put in dry lines yet, have roughly 1300 on 2 1inch mainlines and pulling 26in when system is dry on the end spout, and 22in on end spout when system has sap flowing.....but this tubing was orginally set up for gravity too.
Jake Moser
Moser's Maple

[jimbison]

mine are all 1 inch wet, dry ,and main lines would booster allow me to get more vacuum or just cfms of the same I now have 20 at realiser and about 15 at the end of mainlines wet dry system 800ft then 600ft to end of 2 mainlines the rest are shorter no more than 200 taps per mainline 800total on this section if someone could post link to cfm loss would help thanks for the help

[sjdoyon]

If you don't have any leakage in your system and you have 15 at the end of your line, it might be a matter of running larger wet/dry lines. We installed 2" wet/dry lines and 1" main lines in the majority of our bush have no issues with keeping vacuum pressure. We ran a one inch wet/dry to a separate small section of the bush and we can't keep a high vacuum on this line due to too much sap coming down the line. We are taking the one inch out after the season and running inch and half. If the lines are full of sap, can't see a booster helping.


mine are all 1 inch wet, dry ,and main lines would booster allow me to get more vacuum or just cfms of the same I now have 20 at realiser and about 15 at the end of mainlines wet dry system 800ft then 600ft to end of 2 mainlines the rest are shorter no more than 200 taps per mainline 800total on this section if someone could post link to cfm loss would help thanks for the help

[ToadHill]

Jake, I'm surprised to hear that Steve said that about going from 20" to 28" of vacuum, because I recall Dr. recently posting that each inch increase in vacuum over 20" resulted in 5-7% more sap. So just going to 25" would be 25-35% more sap. I guess you would need to figure out how much it will cost to get that extra 25-35%. Also, one of the things that I recall Steve emphasized in his courses was how many cfm's are lost when a pump goes from 15" to 25" and how many are lost due to undersized long mainlines. Did Steve talk about that when you were with him?

[Moser's Maple]

Randy
yes that was discussed with steve......now just for the record i'm a big steve childs fan.....i think he is a wealth of knowledge and he understands that everybody can't, won't and isn't going to go all out on their sustems like the big guys do. he did scold me for not having a dry line, but after further discussion and viewing my system has enough slope to make me able to maintain 22 in at the end taps of my main lines. as for the inches of vacuum i know they 5-7 for every inch of increase, but all the studies with vacuum are done at a maintained 22 in of vacuum. so after why this was the "number" it was told to me that this was the most economical number for the setup they use to do there studies. anyting above this number was deemed less economical even though the sap yield was greater. not sure how they came up with this, but thats why i don't have a DR. the discussion about a booster was he would rather see the money invested in a wet dry system done properly than spending the same amount on a booster unless needed to for elevation.
Jake Moser
Moser's Maple

[spud]

Jake,

Is it possible you misunderstood Steve Childs? There clearly would be a difference in GPT with different inches of vacuum. If you read PMRC studies on vacuum levels you will clearly see the GPT goes up the higher your vacuum is. If this was not the case we would all be using old dairy pumps and running vacuum 15-18 inches at best. I have two neighbors that will not run vacuum over 15 because they think it hurts the trees. Both neighbors also think PMRC is a joke and they know nothing about sugaring. Both neighbors have NEVER gotten a .35 GPT in their life and they have been sugaring for 30 years. PMRC and others get .6+ GPT because they use high vacuum. There is research in the works where custom made 1/2 inch tubing and fittings are being used in an entire woods. The results so far are 35+ GPT of sap on very high vacuum (27-28). The bigger the pipe the more VAC/CFM you will bring to your trees. The concern with this is it might be to expensive to set up a woods using this size tubing. If you look at the charts there is about one GPT per inch of vacuum over 20 inches.

Spud

[Moser's Maple]

Spud and randy and everybody else
My apologies. I reread the thread and sitting here wonder what exactly I chimed in about. I guess I shouldn't mix lack of sleep cause of neighbor, problems in the woods cause of neighbors and trying to create a rationale conversation. My initial read was half *** at best. My apologies. With that said I'm going back to just watching and reading since I fed myself a great foot in mouth sandwich.
Jake moser
Moser's maple

By the way if someone has any insight on a BHR double vertical releaser I love to hear them. I purchased 1 but having fits with it not wanting to dump if remote pump shuts off

[unc23win]

jimbison

If you have 20" at your releaser and 15" at the end of the line you probably have a leak or two. You could maybe have a line that is flowing so well it is choking the vacuum off as sjdoyon said or maybe has a sag in it. I think most people would agree on tight system no matter what set up you have seeing a loss of more than 1 or 2 pounds means you have a leak. A booster installed in a wet and dry system basically with no branches in either line before the booster allows for maximum vaccum at the booster that your system is capable of and it will help with the CFMs some as it increasing the volume just like a larger diameter line will. After that each main line is on its own. I installed my booster with Spuds advice with a valve on each line as it is easier to find leaks that way.

[spud]

Moser's Maple,

No need to apologize for things said. We can all learn from one another because none of us have all the answers. What would be great is if Steve Childs would chime in on this site from time to time and set us all straight on mainline systems and boosters. Steve has a great book on Vacuum and I think it is money well spent to own this book. I have also mentioned PMRC many times because their research is second to none in the maple industry (my opinion). Having Dr.Tim on this site to answer many questions has helped thousands of sugar maker's.

Spud

[jimbison]

Have been walking the lines checking for leaks while running pump have found a few small and fixed will check for more when sap starts again all lines are valved at wet dry connctions so can shut off each will check for sags again some areas only about 4-5% grade as some is onlittle slope with 1 inch lines don't take much of a sag to cause blockage thanks all for the help Jim

[DrTimPerkins]

....he also stated that energy needed to go from 20 to 28 in of vacuum on the end of your line isn't worth the little bit of extra gain you get in sap quanity.

Not sure if this statement was taken out of context, but in general, there are "several ways to skin a cat", particularly in maple. Some things work better in some instances, some better in others....some just don't work (venting).

Because sap yield is linearly related to vacuum level, with each 1" Hg increase resulting in 5-7% more sap, going from 20-28" Hg would result in a sap yield increase of 40-56%. That is NOT an insignificant amount of sap. The actual energy usage is not linear, as the higher the vacuum you pull the more energy it takes to go a given increment higher. The main thing is that you start with a pump that is capable of producing the CFM you need at your target vacuum level, and that you invest sufficient time to detect and correct leaks. There are definitely decent pumps out there now that are able to achieve high vacuum (you aren't going to do it with an old milk pump and bender releaser), but the investment in going from low vacuum (15-20" Hg) to high vacuum (20-28" Hg) can definitely be worth it.

[unc23win]

Dr. Tim is it questionable as to whether or not higher vacuum is more profitable? I know that the numbers are there like you say up to 56% more sap, but how much of that is really profit when it comes to syrup? I know a larger producer 80,000 taps and he was saying although on high vacuum 28" yea he got 30-40,000 more gallons of sap, but he didn't really make more syrup lower sugar content I think and he also had the time and labor involved to run the RO (4200 gallons an Hour) and evaporator. For a smaller producer with less labor maybe the profits are easier to see?

[DrTimPerkins]

I have two neighbors that will not run vacuum over 15 because they think it hurts the trees. Both neighbors also think PMRC is a joke and they know nothing about sugaring.

I bet they've never been here either. No problem.....let them think what they want. The proof is in the results.

The 15" of vacuum being the "safe" level is an incorrect interpretation of research that is over 50 years old. Researchers on the tubing systems that existed at that time (fairly new development) could only reliably pull 15-18" Hg of vacuum. When they looked at whether vacuum was causing increased damage to the tree, their conclusions were stated as "vacuum up to 15-18" does not produce damage to the tree above that of gravity." Because they couldn't reliably pull 20+" Hg of vacuum, they didn't know what would happen at that point. What people interpreted that to mean over many years was that it was OK to pull vacuum to 15-18" Hg, but that you shouldn't pull vacuum over 15-18" Hg. That is not at all what they said....it was an incorrect assumption based upon the results that were available at the time.

Given the new tubing systems and pumps, it is possible to achieve much higher vacuum (lower pressure) levels. Research was done on this, and it does not cause any increased internal damage to the tree, doesn't rupture internal cells or alter the chemistry of the sap, and doesn't impede taphole closure.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Tim is it questionable as to whether or not higher vacuum is more profitable? I know that the numbers are there like you say up to 56% more sap, but how much of that is really profit when it comes to syrup? I know a larger producer 80,000 taps and he was saying although on high vacuum 28" yea he got 30-40,000 more gallons of sap, but he didn't really make more syrup lower sugar content I think and he also had the time and labor involved to run the RO (4200 gallons an Hour) and evaporator. For a smaller producer with less labor maybe the profits are easier to see?

When you use vacuum, the majority of the time the sap has a chemistry (including sugar content) that is comparable to sap gathered by gravity. During extended thaws you will see a drop-off in sugar content with vacuum, which will continue to drop off until there is a freeze. After a week or so, the sugar content may be too low to be economical to process. The difference is that the gravity producers will have stopped getting ANY sap after about 2-3 days. So while vacuum may dilute the sap sugar a little....something is WAY better than nothing (until you get to the point where sap sugar is very low).

The argument of needing a bigger RO and bigger evaporator is spurious (to me at least). If that is a concern, why would anyone not just stop with a pot on the stove? Why is adding more trees OK, but trying to get the most you can out of the trees you have not OK. You need to spend money either way (more tubing+installation, vs better vacuum pump+better leak detection). Obviously if you get as large as you want to get, then stopping at some point makes sense. But if you want to make more syrup (and potentially more income), then you need to invest some money to make some money.

[unc23win]

I was asking about the profit. Being is it more profitable for a smaller producer to have high vacuum than a larger producer given that the larger producer will no doubt have more labor costs and electric and fuel costs than a smaller producer. There is no need for all cap letters I fully know that you get more sap with vacuum and there is no harm to the tree and I also know that you have spent a lot of time doing research. I also know that the producer I was talking about has been doing the maple thing for 50-60 years and has gone through all the vacuum changes and everything. I also know that you have to spend money to make money I was just asking about the profits. I never said anything about having to have bigger equipment I was just saying 4200 gallon an hour meaning time wise for someone to keep an eye in it would be less as in less labor to pay someone to watch it obviously it takes electric. I would guess that a larger producer with more labor and such would reach the limit as to it not being economical to process all the sap possible quicker than a smaller producer. Nor did I say anything about gravity. I am actually sorry I asked.

[Jeff E]

I'll chime in on this as well. For me it is all about efficeincy. When I decided to go from hobby(for fun) to a business (still fun, but production and sales will keep it going).
I have a limited number of trees and hours. So maximizing these limited resources is the goal, with cost vs benefit being the scale for decision making. That is why I have an RO, a supercharged wood evaporator and a good vacuum pump.
High vacuum gives me sap when others have none, more sap when others have little. Proper sizing of lines and having 'boosters' is just as important as leak repairs. That is why I am seemingly never done in the woods. I am learning as I go, changing out my undersized lines, adding boosters along the W/D system.
I am thinking of putting in sections of 1 1/2" line on my 1" dry lines as a booster. 50' of the bigger line on the end of a run should provide a vacuum resevoir similar to a 80"x 4" booster.
Keep learning, keep improving. Fight entropy!!!

[DrTimPerkins]

I have a limited number of trees and hours. So maximizing these limited resources is the goal, with cost vs benefit being the scale for decision making.

Excellent. In my opinion, for those who are in the business of trying to make money in maple, this is the way producers should think. As I said earlier, there are lots of ways to do things.....many different approaches will work to varying degrees. But you should ALWAYS do the cost/benefit calculation at some point to make sure that what you're doing is putting $ in your pocket. It is very easy to spend money in the maple business (and put $ in other people's pockets). Spending it wisely (and getting a net profit from any decision) is the important thing.


Keep learning, keep improving. Fight entropy!!!

Right on again. Unfortunately entropy is a very persistent opponent.

[mapleack]

Unc23win, IMO high vac would be more profitable for large producers because of economy of scale. Running an RO and evaporator you already have a couple extra hours per day is no big deal. The downside is labor in the woods keeping lines tight and leak free to achieve high vac. I suspect I know who the large producer is you're talking of, he's got over 20 different bushes. The labor for checking leaks in that many different woods would be very pricey to achieve high vac. If all the trees were in one place it would be slightly easier.

[unc23win]

Andy
The producer I was talking about flat out said he got 30-40,000 more gallons of sap and made less syrup. I think because of the sugar content falling off. So if he made estimationg 600-1000 gallons less syrup then thats a pretty good loss not counting labor and such. Bulk price $30 thats what 18-$30,000. Granted probably not much to him at all not sure.

For smaller producers as you said I see it being a completely different game as far as the labor and such, but its still takes the same amount of sap to make a gallon of syrup and roughly the same amount of fuel, ROs I guess that depends on electric use.

Really I am all for finding out just what the limits are for my own sugar bush I was just wondering if there is something to be learned from the increased amount of sap vrs the economics of processing lower content sap. It seems to me that there is a profit its just a matter of how much and each operation is different and each has a number in mind.

[mapleack]

It also of course depends on the year to year variation of sugar content as to the sucess, a one year snapshot doesn't tell the whole story. Last season everyone had lousy sugar content I think. I got 300 gal more sap in 2012 than 2011 but made 40 gal less syrup, same woods, same vac levels. As long as an RO is in use I'd guess, only a guess, that sap would have to be near 0.5% to be uneconomical. I'm not going to make my brain hurt trying to put real numbers to that! :)

[unc23win]

Andy I was just wondering. You are probably pretty close with your guess. BTW looks ot be a good week for PA to get some sap good luck.

[DrTimPerkins]

As long as an RO is in use I'd guess, only a guess, that sap would have to be near 0.5% to be uneconomical.

That's about right. Many of the costs are fixed. You've already paid for the RO and evaporator. To process sap with a low sugar content is only costing you for more electricity to run the vacuum pump and RO.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

"Having Dr.Tim on this site to answer many questions has helped thousands of sugar maker's."

Very well said!

[jimbison]

found the problem 4 vacuum guages all read differant checked all at the releaser and found this thanks for the help now any recomendations on a high vacuum pump must be gas engine any thoughts on the bucsh or other high vacuum 27-28 inches already at 20 if I upgrade going to be 26 or more thanks again