off flavor

[mathprofdk]

Last year was my second, and the syrup I made had an off flavor similar to "buddy" syrup. (I made a batch of that at the very end of my first season, so the taste and smell was familiar.) I attributed it to the ridiculously warm temperatures here outside of Chicago, but now my first batch this year also has a little bit of an off flavor (though not nearly as bad as last year).

I had some nice Vermont syrup that I purchased from another trader, and tasting them side-by-side, mine has a little hint of vanilla (according to my wife), and still a hint of that "buddy" flavor (IMO). It's clearly syrup, and clearly sweet, but not what I expected, and not the quality I made my first year.

Possible culprits that I have in mind:
1. I'm using some pastry buckets, some of which contained pastry fillings, to hold the sap. I hot washed them with a little soap, but they still have an odor.
2. My pan had a little rust in it, which I was able to scrub out with just a 3M pad. It was custom made by a friend who is a welder, but not a food expert. Was the steel not safe? I don't know where he got it, but it has white paint on the outside. He swears it's absolutely safe, but this was the first evaporator and pan he'd made.
3. I'm using sap from two silver maples, and another tree that we're pretty sure is a maple - it has the seeds, and had the highest sugar content last year.
4. I only had two pints worth in this first batch, so I didn't want to go through the hassle of filtering it yet. I just poured it into a couple canning jars and set them in the fridge with lids. Most of the niter had settled, but maybe this is affecting the flavor as well.

Anyone have any suggestions? It's disappointing to put in all this time and energy (and some $$$) to not have it turn out great.

Thanks,
~DK

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

My guess is #2. Did you use that pan the first year? If yes, it would have tasted strange from day one if that was the case. Filtering should effect taste. Your buckets, are they new this year, last? Or again, have you been using since day one.
I guess this makes me ask the question, what is new in your operation since you first started?

[mathprofdk]

Good point.

1. Buckets - some are new. I do have a few brand new I could try.
2. Pan - new last year.
3. The tree was also new last year.

Maybe I should try a batch on the turkey fryer with the big stock pot I used the first year.

[maple marc]

DK, given that you have been careful about your methods, I believe you have a case of naturally occuring off-flavor. There is a great deal of material on the subject. Here's one article with a method of remediation:

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/off-flavor2.pdf

Off-flavor, or metabolic flavor, can result from weather patterns over a wide geographic area. Some years are worse than others. My first couple of years in production--early '00s--were troubled by off-flavor over much of the country. I had some of it in mine. I think you will find that very early light syrup, like what you have, is more prone to off-flavor, because the maple flavor is so delicate. Darker, stronger tasting syrup can hide the off-flavor.

You might try the method described in the article for removing the off-flavor. Please report back to us and let us know how it turns out.

Marc

[mathprofdk]

Thanks for the link, Marc. I actually remember trying that my first year, but had no luck - probably because it was actually buddy sap, not metabolic. I'd completely forgotten.

I'll see how the next batch goes, and then consider that treatment. I remember doing it before, and it's not too bad. I like darker syrup anyway, so the extra boiling won't be a problem. As you mentioned, this first batch is pretty light anyway, so the extra boiling won't hurt it.

Thanks for the suggestion!

~DK

[mathprofdk]

Well, I tried the treatment (heat to 235 and then dilute back to syrup) and didn't notice a huge difference in the flavor. My wife said it wasn't as strong, but she also knows how frustrated I am about this whole mess. I may try again and get it to at least 240 for a while this time. The smell is noticeably off as well. It doesn't smell like maple syrup at all. Like a vegetable.

[DrTimPerkins]

Well, I tried the treatment (heat to 235 and then dilute back to syrup) and didn't notice a huge difference in the flavor. My wife said it wasn't as strong, but she also knows how frustrated I am about this whole mess. I may try again and get it to at least 240 for a while this time. The smell is noticeably off as well. It doesn't smell like maple syrup at all. Like a vegetable.

Did the steam smell really bad when you were boiling? If the off-flavor is metabolism it would. Sometimes you need to repeat the treatment several times....and even then, it is only going to reduce the off-flavor (and aid in the development of a strong maple flavor), not totally eliminate it. Yes....this problem is very frustrating. If you do boil it to that high a temperature DO NOT TAKE YOUR EYES OF IT...even for a moment. It'll go from very hot lava to charred black mess in very short order.

[mathprofdk]

Thanks, Dr. Tim. Yes, the steam did smell bad. The smell of my first boil two years ago immediately brought me back 25 years to the smell of making boxelder syrup with my dad as a kid. Last year and this year, though, it never smelled right.

I'll try repeating the treatment a few times and see if gets better. I really would like to be able to give some away, but as is, I'd feel too embarrassed!

I do have some experience making candy, so I know how careful you have to be. Thanks for the reminder, though.

[DonMcJr]

2. My pan had a little rust in it, which I was able to scrub out with just a 3M pad. It was custom made by a friend who is a welder, but not a food expert. Was the steel not safe? I don't know where he got it, but it has white paint on the outside. He swears it's absolutely safe, but this was the first evaporator and pan he'd made.

I'm a little Curious about the Pan...you said it had white paint on the outside? Kinda reminds me of a Stainless Steel Kitchen Sink. I'd find out more about how your friend made the pan if the smell started the year you started using the pan...

[DrTimPerkins]

I really would like to be able to give some away, but as is, I'd feel too embarrassed!

Unfortunately, although the treatment can reduce the off-flavor (if it is metabolism), the resulting syrup will never be tremendously good stuff suitable for the table. It basically will reduce the off-flavor enough so you can either blend it out easier, or sell it as Commercial syrup (rather than substandard).

An alternative would be to make granulated sugar (Indian Sugar) out of it. The metabolism off-flavor would be reduced.

For others wanting to try this....it is only useful for a specific off-flavor called "metabolism". It doesn't work for buddy off-flavor or several other types of off-flavors (chemical, salty, detergent, etc.). It works only because the specific compound involved in the metabolism off-flavor, a pyrazine, is somewhat volatile at and slightly above syrup temperature, and thus can be reduced by extended boiling.

[mathprofdk]

Very interesting. I did three more cycles, and I can't really notice the flavor anymore. The smell still isn't quite right, but it's much better. I made a batch of maple almonds, and with a little cinnamon and salt tossed in, they should be fine.

I'm a backyard sugarer, so I only had a quart to deal with. Hopefully the next thaw will produce some better sap. And to Don's point, I'm going to try comparing with a boil in another pan when I get more sap. I'll let you know what I find.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.

~DK

[mathprofdk]

Dr. Perkins,

Do you know if there is a limit to the number of cycles that have value? The sap still had the same smell this last week, and I've done 5 cycles of the treatment on sap from the last couple of days. The syrup taste is better, but the smell is still strong, and the overall quality isn't as good as the batch that I described in my previous post. Neither really has a maple flavor, just very sweet. At this point, the syrup is getting pretty dark, and I'm just wondering if it's basically as good as it's going to get.

Also, if this continues, I may just have to get out of the syrup business. This has been a pretty significant investment of time and money to get mediocre syrup. At this point, I'm debating whether I even want to continue at all. Pretty discouraging.

Thanks,
~DK

[DrTimPerkins]

Unfortunately that is probably as good as it is going to get.

Have you tried making any syrup in a different pan or in a pot? It may be that the off-flavor is coming from the pan.

[jputney]

The other thing I see in your first post is you washed your pails with soap. I never use detergent on anything I am going to use for sap or syrup. It's probably ok on glass or stainless but I don't even take the chance there. I sanitize in a bleach solution but plastic will definately hold the taste of the soap.

[mathprofdk]

Thanks, jputney. I don't think it's the buckets, because I tasted the sap right out of the sap sack yesterday, and it had that slight off flavor. I do have some brand new food safe buckets I purchase that I can use. I only used soap on the others, because they came from a bakery and had filling and other oily products in them. I couldn't get it off without the soap.

I have yet to try the other pan, Dr. Perkins. I'll try that this week and post again.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[mathprofdk]

I have an interesting update. I haven't had a chance to boil in another pan yet - too cold here and no flow - but I hope to do that this weekend.

Anyway, I had some friends do some taste testing. Some I told about the flavor, others did a blind taste test. In more than one case, my "off flavor" was preferred to other maple syrups. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive?

A local nature center is doing their maple festival tomorrow, so I'm going to stop in and see if they've had any of this flavor as well. I'll also give an update when I have a chance to do some boiling tomorrow or Sunday.

[TreeTapper2]

Curious about point #3. I didn't see anyone one address this one. Could this other tree be a Box Elder tree? I have read they give a different flavor.

[mathprofdk]

TreeTapper2 - Definitely not the case. I'm pretty sure I'd recognize it, and even so, the smell that was so distinctive to me the first year was a memory from my childhood - making boxelder syrup! The flavor is nothing like this. It's very similar to Maple, but maybe a little "bolder". None of this quasi-"buddy" smell that I'm having.

Update for anyone else still reading this thread: It is definitely the sap. I boiled a couple batches on the same pot I used my first year, and the smell was the same. It smells off right from the get-go. The last two boils smelled a little less strong, so maybe Dr. Tim was right that it is strongest at the beginning of the season.

Second interesting note: I typically filter twice - once with the thinner "paper" filters off the evaporator, and then again once it's syrup with the thinner filters plus a thick Orlon filter. It really seemed like a lot of the smell/flavor was "caught" in the filters off the evaporator this time. I may be just imagining things, though.

One final question for anyone still checking on this thread: How do you tell the difference between metabolic sap and buddy sap? I first noticed the smell last year as smelling like the buddy sap I had at the end of my first season. If it smells buddy all season, how do I know when it really is without boiling all the way down and finding that the taste is just horrible and can't be mitigated by the strategy for metabolic sap?

[Run Forest Run!]

Mathprofdk, I really feel badly for you. I'm hoping that you find an answer to your problem. I've been following this thread and can imagine how frustrated and discouraged you must be. Hang in there.

[tbear]

mathprofdk,
I feel your pain brother/sister. I've been trying to make syrup since 2000/2001. My results (I believe) mimick yours. More times than not I end up with this strange off taste. Last year for example the first batch was off, the second batch was off, the third batch was wonderful, and the fourth batch was off! My process remained the same, my equipment remained the same, the only thing that was differant/changing was the sap itself and the time of year. Last year I tried the 235 degree remedy on the first batch (some success) and on the fourth batch (little if any success). I gave some people a sample of the good stuff and a sample of the not (IMO) good stuff; they to seemed to like the not so good stuff better! The off taste (to me) is almost an after taste, a secondary taste that I really don't like. I truely understand how frustrated you must be. This year my first batch (2.5 gal) was ambrosia-like! Excellent syrup! My second batch (3.25 gal) had that old familiar off taste. The problem perhaps is that I'm not sure what a "buddy" off taste is and what a "metabolic" off taste is. None of this really helps you nor me. I have a thought I'm hoping to put into play and that is: I'm going to try to find some Amish folks in the area that make maple syrup and see if they would help me by tasting the off flavored syrup and perhaps diagnos the problem. If I'm successful with the above I'll certainly let you know. Thank you for the thread. Ted

[tbear]

I've just had a thought. Would anyone out there in Maple Land be willing to have me (and maybe mathprofdk) send them a small sample of the off flavored syrup to try. Maybe that way we could narrow down the problem. I have several 8oz. jars from this year that I haven't thrown out yet that I'd be willing to box up securely and mail to some people with experiance...just a thought. Ted

[bigfatandugly]

helloo everyone- new guy here.

was browsing the forum and came across this thread- im in central ontario (huntsville) and finished my first batch last week. when i was done it had a distinct taste to it- sharp a real secondary taste of sorts. i want to say 'plasticy' cause i cant think of a better word. at first i thought maybe my food grade buckets werent food grade. i could not account for this taste. so i had naturally thought it was me and i somehow screwed the batch up. theres a bigger operation about 45 minutes down the road, 350 buckets, been doing it forever. i sampled theirs from this year- the EXACT same taste.

just found it odd to see everyone talking about what i think might be the same thing- whatever that is. nature is a wonderful and beautiful thing and theres no accounting for her sometimes no matter how hard we try.

cheers.

[mathprofdk]

Karen and Ted: Thanks for the kind thoughts and words. Luckily, it appears that (like Ted) my friends and family are actually satisfied or even prefer what I consider this "off" flavor, so all is not lost. Still, it's definitely not as much fun boiling down without that distinctive maple smell and taste at the end

If anyone is interested, I would definitely be up for shipping a small sample to be tasted and compared.

~DK

[TreeTapper2]

mathprofdk, what parts of Illinois are you? I'm in Rockford.

[mathprofdk]

We're in Batavia, a far west suburb of Chicago.

[Sapster]

mathprofdk,

It may be a bit tedious, but if you take a small sample of sap (a cup or so) from each tree you tap, you can boil the samples down very quickly on the stove and make very small quantities of syrup. You can then compare these samples and find out if there is one or more offending trees. If you think it may be your equipment, you could simply process water the same way you process sap and see if it takes on the funny taste.

It looks like I will be running all day (and possibly night) on Saturday. You are welcome to come down, compare notes and do some taste testing comparisons. You are also welcome to bring a bucket of sap back home and try to process it. I have been having very good results for the past three weekends.