orange buckets from homedepot

[rossbarramen]

i know everyone is a real stickler with food safe buckets and things but ive used the orange buckets in the past n my syrup has tasted just as good as the next guys n i never felt sick nor am i dead. i feel as if the dangers are very small, someone prove me wrong

[325abn]

Dont think anyone can!

[morningstarfarm]

no they cant..but..an easy answer to that is to go to lowes instead and for about a buck more they sell LABELED food grade buckets...if you're gonna buy them then you might as well bite the bullet...just my .02

[maple flats]

I agree. Any bucket not labeled food grade can be made from recycled plastic. You have no way to know what the history of that plastic was. We are in the food busuness and as such must protect the product. Even if the issue is only your image, change. Anyone seeing you using those and not food grade could raise a red flag big time. We must present the proper image at all times.

[sugarman3]

Agree,the industry ,whether big or small,selling to the public should maintain a proper image

[MapleLady]

If the bucket isn't labeled 'food grade', there's a reason for it. It was never intended to be used to hold a food product. Best to play it safe and use only food-grade buckets. I've been lucky to get buckets that were used for frosting and fillings from a local bakery. Once cleaned, they have no odor and are labelled for food. With that said though, I once got a real nice bucket from my school cafeteria that had been used for pickles. To this day, no matter how much I clean it, it still has an odor of dill pickles. I would never use this bucket around my sap, but its a great garden bucket. I guess what I want to say is check around. Sometimes you can get some really good, usable buckets for free.

Have a great season!

[happy thoughts]

i know everyone is a real stickler with food safe buckets and things but ive used the orange buckets in the past n my syrup has tasted just as good as the next guys n i never felt sick nor am i dead. i feel as if the dangers are very small, someone prove me wrong

I mean no disrespect nor do I wish to inflame the subject any further but if the substances used to produce a non food grade container are known carcinogens then you really can't say anything about feeling sick or being dead yet. The effects may not be immediate.

[DrTimPerkins]

i know everyone is a real stickler with food safe buckets and things but ive used the orange buckets in the past n my syrup has tasted just as good as the next guys n i never felt sick nor am i dead. i feel as if the dangers are very small, someone prove me wrong

It wouldn't be hard. The laws in effect in many places state that equipment must be "suitable for the intended purpose." If you checked with HD and asked them if their buckets were food safe and intended for use in collecting sap, I doubt that they would say "yes."

Water with radon in it tastes OK too. Maple syrup with high lead tastes fine too. Just because it doesn't taste bad and doesn't kill you immediately isn't a good test of "safe."

[West Mountain Maple]

If you want PROOF you should call the manufacturer and ask about the dye and release agents required for colored buckets.

determining whether or not a plastic bucket is truly food grade can be a challenge. I've had several readers and consulting clients who have mistakenly been told that the the number 2 (with the number 2 inside the "chasing arrows" recyclable plastic symbol) refers to Food Grade HDPE, but that is not true. Not all "2" marked plastics are food grade!


Here is the distinction: The "food grade" designation is determined by plastic purity by and what mold release compound is used in the injection molding process--not by the plastic itself, since all virgin HDPE raw material is safe for food. For paint and other utility buckets, manufacturers sometimes use a less expensive (and toxic) mold release compound. For food grade they must use a more expensive formulation that is non-toxic. Unless the buckets that you bought are are actually marked "food grade", (or, marked "NSF", "FDA", or "USDA" approved), then you will have to check with the manufacturer's web site to see if they make all food grade buckets.

[Four D Acre Farms]

I have one question. are you using these buckets for the transporting of sap or the storage of finished syrup? Iknow that to be PC you should use food grade on every operation that sap or syrup (or confections for that matter) touch. But if you want to be realistic that a large amount of producers cant afford to use all the items they would need to. How many of us are using stainless tanks as collection tanks? Galvanised bukets? Are you using stainless tanks to gather and haul sap? How many are using soldered pans or canners with leaded solder? I know that these are some tough times and we must do all that we can to try to serve the public with a healthy and safe product. No matter what you are putting in the buckets sap or syrup you need to consider 1 can i clean this item well enough to be able to reuse it next year? 2 will the container leach into the product? 3 does the container protect the product from air (We are canning syrup hopefully) I haul sap in plastic non food grade buckets for collection, I use stock tanks for storage at the end of main lines, i gather and transport with food grade 275 gallon tanks. My head tank is a 725 gal poly tank, my feed pipe is stainless dairy piping, and everything after that is stainless except storage of finished syrup is canned and stored in one gallon glass containers until repackaged into glass containers for retail. I just had some syrup i produced two seasons ago stored in glass and was as good as the day i first canned it! We are striving to upgrade to better quality items for gathering and collecting and storage, as i know we all are. As for the original question if you are storing syrup in plastic it will not last as long and can gain an off taste over time (pop in glass container vs pop in plastic) If you are selling to the public you will want to, as has been stated before, you will want to do all you can afford to make sure the product you are selling is as pure and flavorable as God has made it.

[unc23win]

Someone mentioned the buckets from Lowes. I was looking at them online says they are FDA approved. Not a bad price $3.97 is there an importance for the lid to be FDA approved as well? Just wondering because none of the lids say FDA approved. I was thinking about doing some test buckets to compare sap yields from various spouts and such.

Also according to the FDA website recycled plastic can be used food grade on case by case basis depending on the recycling process still the key is looking for the various labels as previously mentioned.

[happy thoughts]

Someone mentioned the buckets from Lowes. I was looking at them online says they are FDA approved. Not a bad price $3.97 is there an importance for the lid to be FDA approved as well? Just wondering because none of the lids say FDA approved. I was thinking about doing some test buckets to compare sap yields from various spouts and such.

You should use food grade for any surface that the sap or syrup has a chance to contact. Home depot sells food grade lids for about $2 each for their food grade buckets. Bucket price is about $1 more per bucket than Lowe's but food grade lids are definitely available. I can't say whether those same lids would fit Lowe's buckets but it's possible.

[Run Forest Run!]

I'm just north of Toronto in Ontario. Because this is only my second year making syrup I was in need of some extra pails. Based on the great guidance I received here on the forum I went out two days ago to look for, and buy, some food grade pails.

Just thought I'd mention that the pails supplied in my area through Home Depot and Lowes were not food grade. However, Home Hardware carries both 15L and 19L food grade pails so I bought a couple. The lids, while shown as food grade on their website, were not food grade when I saw them in the store. It seems that the ones that they would normally carry had been recently substituted for non food grade. The very helpful woman in the store made a quick call to head office and I'm pretty confident that the proper food grade lids for the food grade pails will be in store soon.

I'm glad I checked to see if what was being sold up here was the same as what is stocked in the U.S. Now all I have to do is wait for the trees to wake up.:)

[unc23win]

Yea I probably will get everything at Home Depot and just check the labels. I think its like $6 each including a lid not bad. I only plan on using them to do some tests so its not a priority and I don't plan on getting 100.

[TerryEspo]

" Water with RADON in it tastes fine too ! "

Great line, I shouldn't laugh but man thats funny to me !! :lol:

Terry

[sg5054]

About a month or so ago I got permission to tap trees on a guys property. Now all of a sudden I need something in neighborhood of 50 buckets. :o I have visited 3 large chain grocery stores with bakeries and have collected over 50 buckets with lids for free. At least 1/2 are 5 gallon. Check your grocery stores, bakeries and donut shops. Most will give them up for free.

[happy thoughts]

" Water with RADON in it tastes fine too ! "

Great line, I shouldn't laugh but man thats funny to me !! :lol:

Terry

What's really funny is that radon water was a popular home tonic about 100 years ago. I collect crocks and now and then still come across old radon water crocks which I believe contain uranium ores. Here's an article about them and the craze that surrounded them about the time our FDA first started regulating the industry.

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-08/healthy-glow-drink-radiation

[spencer11]

The majority of plastic, including food grade stuff is made from petroleum products. So how do they even call plastic food grade?

[mike z]

There may be no negative effects now but the possibility of crippling dementia in your future or your children's should make this a deal breaker.

[MapleLady]

The majority of plastic, including food grade stuff is made from petroleum products. So how do they even call plastic food grade?

When I hear the term 'petroleum product', I immediately think of the oil draining out of my oil pan at an oil change. Makes me want the 'cleanest' plastic around my sap as possible. Hopefully, we won't find out in 20 years that 'food grade' plastic wasn't the way to go.....

[Tweegs]

You probably eat more petroleum than you know. Look at any pre-packaged food that you might consume. If the ingredients contain “artificial color” a dye is used in the product. That dye is likely made from petroleum. There is another type of dye that can be used made from ground up bugs, which is also an allergen and therefore not widely used.

Let’s not talk about pesticides and fertilizers used in commercial agriculture.

Of course, then there is all the petroleum you absorb, from things like Vaseline and other ointments, to make-up, to hand lotions etc.

So is petroleum food grade? In some forms, apparently so.


I’m not making a case for or against…just sayin’



Speaking of food grade…Are your hands food grade? I know mine usually aren’t, but that won’t stop me from stuffing a potato chip in my mouth. :lol:

[spencer11]

You probably eat more petroleum than you know. Look at any pre-packaged food that you might consume. If the ingredients contain “artificial color” a dye is used in the product. That dye is likely made from petroleum. There is another type of dye that can be used made from ground up bugs, which is also an allergen and therefore not widely used.

Let’s not talk about pesticides and fertilizers used in commercial agriculture.

Of course, then there is all the petroleum you absorb, from things like Vaseline and other ointments, to make-up, to hand lotions etc.

So is petroleum food grade? In some forms, apparently so.


I’m not making a case for or against…just sayin’



Speaking of food grade…Are your hands food grade? I know mine usually aren’t, but that won’t stop me from stuffing a potato chip in my mouth. :lol:
So as long as the buckets are new, I wouldn't worry about them being stamped with "food grade"

[wiam]

Come on guys, we are talking image here

[happy thoughts]

You probably eat more petroleum than you know. ..... So is petroleum food grade? In some forms, apparently so. I’m not making a case for or against…just sayin’

Speaking of food grade…Are your hands food grade? I know mine usually aren’t, but that won’t stop me from stuffing a potato chip in my mouth. :lol:

And in some cases apparently not. Take two different antifreezes both produced from petroleum, ethylene glycol and propylene glycol. One is toxic the other is not. Which one would you want poured on your pancakes? Would you butter your bread with vaseline?

Please don't confuse food grade with cleanliness. You may be fine eating with dirty hands. Just don't try to put food in MY mouth, lol.

Also just sayin'......

[Tweegs]

Please don't confuse food grade with cleanliness. You may be fine eating with dirty hands. Just don't try to put food in MY mouth, lol.

:lol:If it isn’t clean, it isn’t food grade, don’t care what kind of labeling it sports. And the dirty hands bit was more to grab a chuckle than try to drive some kind of point, other than to just keep things clean.:lol:

I agree with Wiam, image is everything.

Most customers wouldn’t know “food grade” if it came up and bit ‘em, but they do know what clean and sanitary looks like. In my mind, clean and sanitary is white or stainless. I won’t let customers or friends see much else. My tanks and most buckets are white, clean (inside and out), and stay that way. The buckets along my driveway, about a dozen, get new drops every year and when they start looking a little dusty, they get washed as I gather. The potential customer never sees anything that might call into question the sanitary practices of my operation. Off color food grade buckets go to the back of the property, but that’s just me and the way I run things.

The orange Home Depot buckets are recognizable by anyone who has shopped there and they know what the intended purpose of that bucket is. Let’s put the food grade issue aside for a moment and consider if anyone would want to take a nice long drink of Gatorade from that bucket, and isn’t that essentially what you are asking them to do? I dare say nobody in their right mind is going to want to ingest anything that came out of it. Same goes for trash cans.

My simple rule for around here: If the sap or syrup is going to be in direct contact with an item for more than an hour or two, that item will be food grade (buckets, tanks, etc.). Less than an hour or two, the item is required to be clean and sanitized. (Brushes, hoses, pumps, transfer containers, etc.)

Every image that the consumer has of your operation should register as safe.

[mapleack]

"So as long as the buckets are new, I wouldn't worry about them being stamped with "food grade"

Spencer, not to single you out, but I don't know about potential customers of yours, I can guarantee that I've got very few who would want my syrup if
they saw the orange bucket in the link below hanging on trees when they stopped at the sugarhouse. There's a very important difference between saving money and cutting corners. Have I used new rubbermaid garbage cans for sap? Yes. 15 years ago. I learned better and changed my ways. Each and everyone of us is responsible for portraying a clean, safe and positive image for the entire industry big and small. A news report showing orange "paint" buckets hanging on trees wouldn't just hurt that producer, but all of us.


http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/6b/6b93b031-7490-4563-a286-8f59158640bd_400.jpg

[spencer11]

"So as long as the buckets are new, I wouldn't worry about them being stamped with "food grade"

Spencer, not to single you out, but I don't know about potential customers of yours, I can guarantee that I've got very few who would want my syrup if
they saw the orange bucket in the link below hanging on trees when they stopped at the sugarhouse. There's a very important difference between saving money and cutting corners. Have I used new rubbermaid garbage cans for sap? Yes. 15 years ago. I learned better and changed my ways. Each and everyone of us is responsible for portraying a clean, safe and positive image for the entire industry big and small. A news report showing orange "paint" buckets hanging on trees wouldn't just hurt that producer, but all of us.


http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/6b/6b93b031-7490-4563-a286-8f59158640bd_400.jpg
I see what your sayin, just for me it's a money thing, I don't use HD buckets I use lowes, they are new but not "food grade" I found out later that they started selling food grade ones for somewhere around $5, mine were around 2 plus a lid. I couldn't afford to buy all food grade ones from lowes but I plan to start trying to use the food grade ones next year. On a side note someone said something about food grade lids, why would it matter if sap never touches it?

[325abn]

We need a "beating a dead horse" icon for threads like this. :)

I don't buy into the whole "people who see sap in HD orange bucket are going to run the other way and tell all thier friends to also run" argument. I have used these buckets to collect sap for years and years. I am sure most have us have seen corn, tomatoes, cukes, apples etc etc get collected in all types of containers. OH and what about apples used to make cider? Are those collect in a food grade bucket? Come on now!!

And as far as "image" I say bunk!! I keep my shack, buckets, tools, hands, floors etc etc clean clean clean!!! So to imply that my syrup making operation is some how fouled by a bucket that is not marked 'food grade" is itself a fouled argument.

Stepping off of my soap box now. :) :)

[325abn]

16. Respect other members of the Forum. That means in both the visible forum posts and in PM’s

[vermontpure]

I say if your selling syrup everything "should" be up to standard but if it's for yourself then do whatever you want. I wish I had a penny for every plastic garbage pail i see at the end of pipelines. I guess they didn't get the image memo.

[325abn]

I say if your selling syrup everything "should" be up to standard but if it's for yourself then do whatever you want. I wish I had a penny for every plastic garbage pail i see at the end of pipelines. I guess they didn't get the image memo.

Here Here!

Best post of the thread!!

[bowtie]

i think some guys need to relax or find some other place to vent from both sides of the fence, that said if you are not trying to do it right then you should not sell, regardless of your age, and the whole rest of the food industry thing is true to some extent but does that make right! it really should not matter who you make it for or why, if you can not afford to use the proper materials why bother doing it all. i realize it can be expensive but thats life, 2 collection buckets at $6 each is about the cheapest thing you will need, and before any think i am taking a holier than thou attitude, when i started 4 years ago i thought it was fine to use galv tank to store in and other non-food grade materials until i learned the reasons it wasn't. also if you are doing this to just to make money you would be alot further ahead working ot at your job or getting a second one.
if you do not want to hear the answers don't ask the question!!

[not_for_sale]

When I was in college I had a summer job at a pretty famous brewery. My job and the job of other summer employees was to scrub the huge fermentation tanks. I did that for 4 weeks and at the end of that job I really felt like I did not want to work again.

During that 4 week period I saw that employees that worked there permanently stood on top of these tanks and took a piss into the full tank.

Not once, not twice but on a regular basis. It took a long time before I touched beer again. I still think about it today.

No amount of rationalizing can get that image out of my mind.

You are doing worse if you introduce poisonous substances in food on purpose. Piss is not poisonous. First you put an image like the above about the whole industry in someone's mind, and then you even poison their kids.

I know plenty of people that would on purpose increase the lead count in your body if they learn your attitude when they found out that somehow this release agent found its way into their kids.

It's one thing not knowing and being stupid. It's another doing it on purpose on a regular basis for whatever reason.

Btw - those guys never got fired and are still working there, I bet you they are standing on top of those tanks today.

[325abn]

Well then people like you are just doomed to be disturbed! :)

[DrTimPerkins]

I've been reading this thread without commenting until now......

I guess the main question you should ask yourself, particularly if you are selling syrup is, "if an agricultural or health inspector walked into my sugaring operation, would they: A) allow me to continue operating, B) allow me to continue operating if I made some immediate changes, or C) close me down." If the answer is "C", then changes to your operation are strongly advised.

The inspector isn't going to argue the merits of food-grade versus non-food-grade, or care whether you haven't injured anyone (yet)....they are going to be concerned about whether you are following the regulations, which are pretty clear. The general rule is that you can use materials that are suitable for the intended purpose. If the intended purpose of the bucket (based upon what the manufacturer says the purpose is) is to hold drywall or paint, then it isn't suitable for sap.

[hadley121]

I've been a reader of this site for a long time but never comment because of threads like this. One says not to be greedy in one thread and on another thread scold those who sell too low or too high for their liking. One says not to give the industry a bad image but boils sap in a ramshackle shed that's inhabited by rodents 9 months a year.

Who determines what's food grade? The FDA, the USDA? The same ones who approve prescription narcotics, aspartame, BPA, and at one time lead? Who says what they approve now won't be approved 20 years from now? What if stainless steel is deemed to be a health hazard because of the chromium content? There is one type of chromium that's potentially dangerous, VI, that's used to make stainless steel, wood preservatives, leather tanning, etc. Or that plastics with BPA were hazardous to human health?

I'm not saying you shouldn't use food grade materials, you absolutely should. But I'd be careful to pass judgement because you might be the one not using food grade materials in the future. If you boil in the open air, a barn, shed, sugar house, or garage and are passing judgement on others, I hope you plan to completely cover your walls, and ceilings in stainless steel to keep it sterile and food grade. After all who knows what may come down in the night to get a little sweet drink from the syrup pans.

Is every batch of your syrup tested for undesirable contaminants? Do you wash down your entire operation everyday with foodsafe chemicals including the evaporator, walls, floors, and ceilings? Just to make absolutely sure there is no contamination of your product? Do you fire with only propane so no wood ashes get into your syrup?

I stick to plain steel, copper, glass, and a bare minimum of BPA free virgin plastics. I sterilize my stuff with nontoxic chemicals including ionic silver and heat. I store all of my syrup in glass mason jars with Tattler lids. I also don't sell any syrup, and I'm more of a food grade proponent than anyone here because I've done the research. That's why I make my own syrup, buy directly from farmers when I can, raise my own rabbits for meat, raise chickens for eggs, and so on and so forth.

The hypocrisy of threads like this astound me, some say they don't want gov't intervention but call out others for not registering with them. What if the feds decided that one day lead was actually good for you (like they now say mercury in vaccines is good for children's brain development) and required you to store all of your syrup in lead containers, would you just bow down and listen? Looking to a higher authority for everything you do is foolish.

This is a public forum and bickering like this between you makes you all look bad, because anyone can read this. I also don't want to inflame things here anymore, just pointing out that not everything that's approved by gov't regulation is approved of by everyone. There is enormous amounts of information on how money, and not your health, is the driving factor in what the feds approve of for your health and well being.

Now everyone step back and take a deep breath, and apologize to each other.

[325abn]

Very well said Hadley!

Now I got to get busy.

Good day Gents :)

325ABN - OUT

[DrTimPerkins]

...not everything that's approved by gov't regulation is approved of by everyone.

Whether or not you yourself approve with the laws and regulations is absolutely immaterial and is not a defense for doing the wrong thing. Do you tell the cop that stopped you for driving 55 mph in a 25 mph school zone that it's OK to because the kids were in classes at the time and you didn't run over anybody so what was the harm? Of course not. The reality is that if the maple industry doesn't clean up its act.....then the regulators eventually will. For some making syrup to celebrate the fact that they can do what they want without regard for the safefy of others is unethical, immoral, and also illegal. The tobacco companies argued for almost half a century that there was nothing wrong with smoking when they knew for a fact that it was harmful...but it was OK, because they were making boatloads of money at the time. We know what the rules are.....either follow them, or don't sell your syrup.

As for the future....who knows. We just have to do the best with what we know now, and for what the regulations are NOW.

Nobody is asking that you sell all your galvanized buckets or even your lead-soldered evaporators or that you go out of business. All that people want is for folks to take some sensible precautions and maybe spend an extra dollar or two on a food-grade bucket compared to a non-food-grade bucket. Doesn't seem too much to ask to me. A little effort will go a long way.

So if you don't want to hear that your oil cans or garden hoses aren't good for sap, or that grandpa's old shirt you use for filtering is not a good idea....then don't ask for approval.

[hadley121]

Hi Dr. Perkins,

I'm not defending or scolding anyone for what they do. I'm not saying syrup makers shouldn't have their best intentions to make a superior product. I also agree that buying a food grade bucket over a non-food grade bucket should be a no brainer. BUT, I also would not buy syrup from anyone who uses lead soldered, galvanized, stainless, or english tin, when used as pans, buckets, or gathering tanks. Or those who package their syrup in non BPA free plastic containers. I have a choice in what I want to buy and use, so should consumers who buy directly from a person. That is the risk they take as a human being, and a consumer. The problem is when those same people run to the gov't to protect them after they knowingly did not investigate where their food came from, or look into the possible health effects of the items used.

Now if there is a middle man, like bulk syrup, there should certainly be some regulation as the end consumer can't go and see where the syrup came from. So those people have to rely on an entity to do that for them. I agree completely with that, and they should be held to the highest of standards.
regulations stopped that. I don't trust or put MY life in the hands of others, I take responsibility for my own health and well being.

I do understand what you're saying and I agree, regulations are there for a reason, but as a free human being we all have the choice of what we do with our own bodies. When you buy from someone else you have every right to inspect, and determine if it's up to YOUR standards, and not the standards of anyone else, and live with consequences of YOUR decision.

I also understand that image is huge in this country, and there is no way of getting around that.

What you folks decide on is of course up to you, and what I say really doesn't matter. When it really comes down to it, those who do what the PUBLIC wants will ultimately succeed, and those who do not, won't.

[DrTimPerkins]

...but as a free human being we all have the choice of what we do with our own bodies. When you buy from someone else you have every right to inspect, and determine if it's up to YOUR standards, and not the standards of anyone else, and live with consequences of YOUR decision.

I agree with the first part of this statement. Eat whatever you like personally. I'm certainly not an organic heath food junky, and wouldn't care if I ate a 100% beef burger or a horse-burger as long as I knew what it was.

However, the paying customer has an expectation that what they are purchasing is made with the proper materials using the proper techniques. That expectation is borne out by regulations that say it must be done in a certain way, and is further promised to consumers in advertisements and on the label that what they are purchasing is "pure maple syrup." Nobody has the right to deviate from that, whether they are selling out of their sugarhouse to their neighbors, or to a maple syrup packer.

It isn't that anyone is telling maple producers that they must comply with all HAACP rules in a sterile clean-room that is scrubbed every hour and with FDA inspectors standing by each moment to close you down. All people are asking is that folks follow a few sensible rules about what they use and don't try to cut corners just to save a few dollars.

[hadley121]

I never said anything about not meeting expectations of a consumer. I just don't want other people, entities, or organizations to tell ME how to live, what to buy, or how to make something. Like I said I don't sell syrup, I don't buy syrup, I make my own syrup. I do what I want with my stuff. The gov't has no right to tell me what to buy for MYSELF. Repeat, MYSELF.

I've worked in places that I would never eat at, not because I didn't do MY best to make a cleaner, safer place, but that others didn't. Sure we got inspected regularly, but never got any citations or fines because everything "looked" good.

Like I said do what you all want. I won't respond anymore because I know it doesn't matter in the end. Those who depend on Gov't will always defend it.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

It is clear that people are passionate about this topic. I am a small producer, and I do sell to the public. I try to the best of my ability to keep everything 100% clean and safe.

I agree that we need to self regulate or others will do it for us. There are examples from recent history that show the effect of the FDA stepping in. My fear is that what happened to the dairy industry will happen to the Maple industry. So many small farmers went out of business in Vermont when the FDA insisted on SS bulk tanks and other improvements to comply. While I am concerned about this, I still think it makes sense for all of us to do the best we can and only use containers that we would give our grandmother or our children a drink from. Anything short of that is a cause for concern for us all...

And most certainly if we do not self regulate and someone gets sick, it will drive most of the small producers who can't afford to get running water, a clean room and other things the FDA will insist upon completely out of the loop.

[happy thoughts]

It seems to me that so many of us go to great lengths and expense to improve our spouts, tubing, rigs, fires, filtering, ROs, whatever, but when it comes to the single most important thing to produce pure wholesome syrup and the simplest to accomplish, best practices for sap handling, some just don't want to hear about improving that or even think we should talk about it. Sorry, I just don't get it :confused: The sap is what it's all about and how we collect and handle it means everything.

And with all due respect hadley, though I truly understand what you're saying, the OP who posed this question does sell syrup from what was said in a later post. Yes. if you produce for yourself only, then you should feel free to maintain whatever standards you choose. But if you sell commercially that's a whole other story that reflects on the entire industry as Dr Tim has patiently tried to explain. Reputations die hard and rumors persist, just as some may now think our local fast food hamburger joints all serve horsemeat because of your own posting. I say that not to belittle you in any way, but as an illustration. In a similar vein, there are organic syrup producers who have no qualms promoting their own product by saying non organic syrup contains formaldehyde because that was used as a tap hole disinfectant for a short period in a few places but is now illegal everywhere for close to two decades.

Anyway, I think this subject will always be worth discussing. The best we can do is to learn from our mistakes and try to keep improving.

All the best to each and all. May we all have a great season:)

[rossbarramen]

i didn't ask this question to upset so many people it was just to see if anyone had similar experiences

[mapleack]

Please don't take it as hostility ross, but rather passion for sugaring and all that goes with it. Often people's emotions flow a little too much, when concise reasoning would get the job done quicker. I hope you stick around the trader, there's lots of good info and friendly people.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I agree with that, keep topics like this coming. This is about much more than an orange bucket. It is about tradition for some. About what each person's level of tolerance from perfection is. It's about meeting FDA standards and others who don't and maybe can't. This discussion isn't going away. It is what the Maple industry is evolving toward. Regulation for the sake of a consistent product. Regulation keeps everyone in check just like nearly every other product produced that's offered for consumption.

I am not judging anyone, but there must be a standard that we all follow for products sold to the public or we will have more regulation than most of us can handle. Just my opinion.

[not_for_sale]

As far as cancer in the US goes, I don't think it's cumulative.

Take a look at this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tnrMjj20R0A

There are 8 parts, this is part one.

[DrTimPerkins]

I don't consider chromium and nickel in stainless steel food grade.

Your argument is completely spurious. The studies you link are related to exposure to nickel and hexavalent chromicum FUMES. Not to stainless steel itself. It is easy to avoid that exposure....dont' weld the stuff. If you do, take the appropriate precautions....which are well recognized.


Do some research, think for yourself, it'll do you some good. I don't mean to attack you but when people have no knowledge of a subject in which they defend it makes their argument moot.

I agree with you on one point.....read those links.

[gundog]

A couple years ago I wanted to use the gray lowes buckets but was worried so I contacted the manufacturer....in this case it was Encore. The very nice lady took my questions and got back to me quickly. She knew the buckets well......obviously lowes was a big customer........she said the buckets were not marked food grade.....but they were definitely food grade. They were manufactured the same exact way with the same material as buckets marked food grade. That particular customer did not need them marked that way.

She assured me they were as food grade as any buckets out there.

I suggest if you want to use certain buckets and have a doubt....talk to the manufacturer. They obviously know.

Ymmv

[CBOYER]

hadley121, would you eat hydrochloric acid ? would you eat Caustic soda ? i dont think so... but if you mix those two substance, you put it on a lot of things you eat, its make salt. sodium chloride. Chemicals include in a product cannot be isolated to say it could be toxic.
Saying that stainless steel is dangerous for health because in the procees to make it they used hexavelent chromium (VI) is false.

Please, try to self regulate. dont wait after the BIG guy with BIG foot came in.

[spencer11]

A couple years ago I wanted to use the gray lowes buckets but was worried so I contacted the manufacturer....in this case it was Encore. The very nice lady took my questions and got back to me quickly. She knew the buckets well......obviously lowes was a big customer........she said the buckets were not marked food grade.....but they were definitely food grade. They were manufactured the same exact way with the same material as buckets marked food grade. That particular customer did not need them marked that way.

She assured me they were as food grade as any buckets out there.

I suggest if you want to use certain buckets and have a doubt....talk to the manufacturer. They obviously know.

Ymmv
Just out of curiosity, they are food grade? Just not marked food grade?

[hadley121]

Are you saying hexavalent chromium is safe? If so then lead would be ok too because it couldn't possibly leach into the syrup. Right?

[hadley121]

With all due respect you need to read those links, the OSHA link clearly points out contact dermatitis with chromium is a concern for some people. If contact with the skin wasn't a concern then it wouldn't be a problem right? Last time I checked 304 stainless is around 18% chromium, not a small number by any means, and nickel makes up around 10%. If chromium and nickel are a possible carcinogen in the lungs then why would it not be in the stomach or intestinal tract. Why should I believe that no chromium or nickel will ever get into the syrup?

[gundog]

Just out of curiosity, they are food grade? Just not marked food grade?

That is what she said.

No different than other buckets they make that are food grade.

Like I said.....an email to the manufacturer for the truth would be best option.

[hadley121]

As far as cancer in the US goes, I don't think it's cumulative.

Take a look at this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tnrMjj20R0A

There are 8 parts, this is part one.

Very good series of videos. I gave up dairy 2 years ago and it took 3-4 months to "recover". I knew of the lowered ph that may lead to osteoporosis, inability to digest casein, and heightened LDL but I had no idea it was so detrimental. I originally started to make syrup for the calcium, and other minerals, not available during the winter months from leafy green vegetables. Plus it tastes great. I guess I need to look into the health effects of milk more.

[DonMcJr]

Ross please use Food Grade Equipment. It is not an option.

[PerryFamily]

Well said Don.
If it is worth doing, do it right.
I have done a ton of work for the largest organic veggie farms here in vt because of the "food safety act" . That piece of legislation has cost that farm tens of thousands of dollars. New drainage, all view waste water systems and water systems.
One thing I know for sure is I don't want to go through all the inspections he does. But when they come knocking I am ready because I did it right.
If you can't afford to do it right maybe you should find another hobby.

[Tweegs]

I’m not sure why this is really even an argument.

Buckets can be had from bakeries, candy shops, groceries, ice cream parlors, donut shops, cake shops, etc…all if not for free, certainly cheaper than the orange buckets, plus it’s the right tool for the job.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

When we used to hang 500 buckets, we got the 5 gallon buckets from Byrne Dairy that had the flavorings for their ice cream in them. Most either had strawberry or peanut butter flavoring in them. They were glad to get rid of the empty's and sold them to us for a buck a piece. The only thing is, you couldn't get a lot at a time; about a dozen a week, so we would buy them throughout the year and by the time the season came we had enough. Neil

[DrTimPerkins]

If chromium and nickel are a possible carcinogen in the lungs then why would it not be in the stomach or intestinal tract.

Route of entry is one of the key factors in determining whether or not something is safe. Metallic nickel or chromium are not a health hazard in solid form (you aren't inhaling or ingesting it). When you vaporize these metals (as in welding), they can enter your lungs and cause problems. In solid form, they aren't harmful....unless you bang your head on them.

By your reasoning, wood furniture is toxic (inhaling wood dust is problematic, or because it can be made into baseball bats which could be used to beat people with), iron is toxic (because somebody might eat a nail), air is toxic (it can cause embolisms if released directly into the blood, nitrogen....which is 78% of the atmosphere... and will not support life, or when combined with sodium can cause cancer), water is toxic (if you drink too much or if you make a hydrogen bomb out of it).

[DonMcJr]

Ross please use Food Grade Equipment. It is not an option.

Well I didn't think what I wrote was an attacking post but at least the most important part was left...

[CBOYER]

Are you saying hexavalent chromium is safe? If so then lead would be ok too because it couldn't possibly leach into the syrup. Right?

NO.as Dr tim, i know what i said on Chromium hexavalent. I had work with it on the form of sodium dichromate, used to prevent corrosion of steel cathodes in an electrolysis process. i know how harmfull is this product, and we know how to handle it under Responsible Care rules. What i said is a component that change "form" in a product cannot be shown as bad or good: it is the final product that need to be analysed for his properties. And the best and smallest comment is the one by DonMcJr.

[unc23win]

I think this is more common than you think. I noticed that the buckets at Lowes online are all made by the same company Encore. I found it interesting none of the lids said food grade. Having worked in the manufacturing industry in past I am not at all surprised that they are all made the same way only some are marked food grade and others aren't. Not that I really know anything about the manufacturing of buckets. From the manufacturing stand point it gives them a wider customer base as some customers care about food grade and others don't yet from what I have seen the food grade are about 2-$3 more. It makes sense why sell to a limited market? Same reason some people bottle syrup in bottles from other states not me by the way never, but I know people do it. As far as the part of this discussion about inspections and such will a letter from the company serve the same as the label on the bucket? I don't know. As for me I was looking for buckets to conduct some tests of various spouts and keep track of sugar content and sap yield I haven't gotten that far. I will most likely buy new buckets from HD or Lowes food grade of course since I am making the trip. I am not much for used buckets no matter what they had in them. Opinions vary from person to person and regulations vary best leave the regulating up to the regulators and let the opinions be as they may. I started getting on trader more this year trying to learn more about vacuum and I figure sometiems I might be able to be of assistance to others as payment for the knowledge that I have gained as I have been doing the tubing thing since I was about 5 helping my folks. Some folks really need to realize that when you respond to someone else maybe they haven't been as lucky as you and been doing the maple thing all their life so they are on trader to LEARN and SHARE. Some are more passionate about it than others but its all the same whether your in the woods for a day tapping 10 taps or weeks tapping 10,000 the fact that you got off your *** says your a sugarer.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

route of entry is one of the key factors in determining whether or not something is safe. Metallic nickel or chromium are not a health hazard in solid form (you aren't inhaling or ingesting it). When you vaporize these metals (as in welding), they can enter your lungs and cause problems. In solid form, they aren't harmful....unless you bang your head on them.

By your reasoning, wood furniture is toxic (inhaling wood dust is problematic, or because it can be made into baseball bats which could be used to beat people with), iron is toxic (because somebody might eat a nail), air is toxic (it can cause embolisms if released directly into the blood, nitrogen....which is 78% of the atmosphere... And will not support life, or when combined with sodium can cause cancer), water is toxic (if you drink too much or if you make a hydrogen bomb out of it).

i love you doc :)

[DrTimPerkins]

i love you doc :)

Right back at you Chumlee.

[Thad Blaisdell]

The quickest and simpelist rule of thumb, if you will use it to feed your newborn baby then by all means go for it. If not why would anyone else want to eat from it.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

The quickest and simpelist rule of thumb, if you will use it to feed your newborn baby then by all means go for it. If not why would anyone else want to eat from it.
My analogy would get me banned so what Thad said

[backyard sugaring]

My two cent is if you can't afford food grade buckets or don't want to use bakery or yogurt buckets then buy the bags they cost .35 each. Make bag holders out of PVC pipe with a splice in and you have your holder. I used bakery buckets before to remove the label and clean the buckets it is easier to go buy new food grade buckets.

[dnap63]

I believe the days of the small producers are numbered. Either you will tap a few trees to make syrup for your own use or you will have to make a substantial investment to have a facility that will meet federal standards. The business is changing like it or not.

[vermontpure]

I believe the days of the small producers are numbered. Either you will tap a few trees to make syrup for your own use or you will have to make a substantial investment to have a facility that will meet federal standards. The business is changing like it or not.It's a very sad thought but I agree with you dnap63. It's getting harder and harder for the "little man" to do anything anymore. I look back at our parents and grandparents and how simple everything was without all the BS from state and federal government.

[Lindsey Simanskas]

Uline sells food grade 5 gallon buckets just picked some up...they also sell food grade plastic bags in several sizes.

[spencer11]

I just got a few food grade ones from lowes yesterday for collecting.they are very heavy duty and I think defentaly worth the extra dollar or so compared to the normal buckets. I will be replacing my normal ones with these this year. Like someone say before, they don't have food grade lids...why does it matter if sap doesn't touch it? Cause it doesn't how I use mine, the lid just keeps snow and rain off

[michiganphil]

Just ran out to Lowe's at lunchtime. Their Encore food grade buckets have a sticker on them that say food grade. They look identical to, and have the same information molded into the bottom as the blue and the gray non-food safe ones. I would think that Encore buckets are either all food safe, or none really are. That's just my opinion, since it would be really easy to slap a sticker on some buckets but not on others that come off the same line. If you use these, you may want to contact Encore for some manufacturer's info.

Menard's, on the other hand, had food safe buckets that were the exact same price. These were made by Continental Containers, and the FDA codes and compliance info was directly printed on the bucket. (no temporary stickers).

One other thing I noticed is that Rubbermaid makes "trash cans" for food service use. They actually have a lot of food service products listed on their website. They are around 30 gal, clear or white plastic, and have the NSF standards molded into the bottom. I also saw them locally at tractor supply (SW Michigan).

[sirsapsalot]

Just ran out to Lowe's at lunchtime. Their Encore food grade buckets have a sticker on them that say food grade. They look identical to, and have the same information molded into the bottom as the blue and the gray non-food safe ones. I would think that Encore buckets are either all food safe, or none really are. That's just my opinion, since it would be really easy to slap a sticker on some buckets but not on others that come off the same line. If you use these, you may want to contact Encore for some manufacturer's info.

Menard's, on the other hand, had food safe buckets that were the exact same price. These were made by Continental Containers, and the FDA codes and compliance info was directly printed on the bucket. (no temporary stickers).

One other thing I noticed is that Rubbermaid makes "trash cans" for food service use. They actually have a lot of food service products listed on their website. They are around 30 gal, clear or white plastic, and have the NSF standards molded into the bottom. I also saw them locally at tractor supply (SW Michigan).

food grade " trash cans " is what classy homeless people eat from... WOW

[mathprofdk]

Regarding the Encore buckets/lids at Lowe's - they are NOT all food safe, per the manufacturer. I went and noticed that the white buckets were marked food safe, while the lids were not. I called the manufacturer from the store, and they explained that only the white and clear buckets/lids are food safe.

So the white lids are fine, even though they're not labeled as food safe. The colored buckets are not.

My 2¢.

~DK

[spencer11]

I got the white ones labeled food grade and are approved by the FDA, but as for lids? Why would it need to be food grade if they don't touch sap? My lids don't ever touch sap, and if I have a situation where they would I wouldn't need a lot. So cost shouldn't be a problem when I only need a few

[Oddmott]

A lot of good info in this back and forth... unless you're a Canuck. :(

lol

I've checked the Canadian Home Depot & Lowe's sites trying to find these food grade pails you speak of... and see nothing. They both sell white/clear pails, and some coloured ones, but none of them are listed as food grade.

Any Canadian's know of similar options?

[Run Forest Run!]

A lot of good info in this back and forth... unless you're a Canuck.

Well fellow Canuck, here's what I've found...

Lowes has nothing.

Canadian Tire has nothing.

Home Hardware has white buckets that are food grade and marked as such (5 gallons / 19 litres). The matching lids aren't marked as food grade, but after much research and correspondance with the manufacturer, they are indeed food grade as well. These are what I purchased.

Home Depot carries some Brute containers that ARE food grade but only the larger ones (44 gallons or something like that), are marked as suitable for contact with food. I wouldn't trust the smaller ones without doing your research. Fellow Canuck forum member Kyle Baker told me about the Brute containers. Apparently lots of people use them in their wine making process. They are close to $60 a pop.

Oh, and my much loved local Tim Hortons has fondant buckets (4 gallons / 15 litres) with lids that they generously gave me. They even washed them out. if you've got a local Timmy's, see if they can hook you up. Hope that helps!

[spencer11]

http://www.lowes.com/pd_356492-1152-50640_0__?productId=3694238&Ntt=5+gallon+bucket&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3D5%2Bgallon%2Bbucket&facetInfo=

Here's the food grade ones from lowes, not sure if you can get the in Canada, but they do have food grade ones

[Run Forest Run!]

http://www.lowes.com/pd_356492-1152-50640_0__?productId=3694238&Ntt=5+gallon+bucket&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3D5%2Bgallon%2Bbucket&facetInfo=

Here's the food grade ones from lowes, not sure if you can get the in Canada, but they do have food grade ones

As far as I've been able to figure out we don't get those here in Canada.

[David in MI]

I've never ordered from these guys but came across their site in the past couple of weeks. They have many colors available and also the lids that allow you to use a screw-top type lid. http://www.bayteccontainers.com/5-gallon-white-plastic-bucket.html

Price listed is $14.07 for three.

[michiganphil]

food grade " trash cans " is what classy homeless people eat from... WOW

I just said "trash can" because that's what they look like. Rubbermaid actually calls them ingredient bins and lists the capacity in terms like "holds 125 lb. of flour" or "will hold 50 lb. of sugar".
I think that I noticed some in DonMcJr's video of his sap collection over in the Tapping Michigan section. Don?

[DonMcJr]

Yes the ones I have are Food Grade. I got them at a Restraunt Supply Store and they had Grey ones that were not Food Grade. Restruants use them to store heads of Lettuce and alot of other Food Items. They Come in yellow and other colors too but as far as I know the White are the only Food Grade ones...

[happy thoughts]

I know for a fact that rubbermaid sold food grade bins that looked like trash cans last year which another forum member pointed out to me in one of last years heated food grade plastic discussions. I don't know if they are still available. But that said, you have to be careful because as I remember not all colors in the same line were actually food grade even though all colors in the product line looked exactly the same. There was conflicting information about the same said containers when it got down to individual retailers. Some that I knew where not food safe per rubbermaid were being sold as food grade online. If in doubt, call the manufacturer. They will have the best info.

I would just like to add that though food grade means food grade, there are still some things to consider. For instance the temp range rating the container can tolerate. If you exceed them you could degrade the plastic. You probably aren't going to want to put really hot syrup into them.

[Zamkev]

A lot of good info in this back and forth... unless you're a Canuck. :(

lol

I've checked the Canadian Home Depot & Lowe's sites trying to find these food grade pails you speak of... and see nothing. They both sell white/clear pails, and some coloured ones, but none of them are listed as food grade.

Any Canadian's know of similar options?

Hey Oddmott - I see you are in Ottawa. Check Preston Hardware. They have 44 and 32 Gallon Food Grade Ingredient storage containers. They look like trash cans but are white and more expensive. I think the 44 G is $70 and the 32G is $40 or $50. I bet they also have food grade 5G pails since they supply a lot of wine/beer producers. I recently picked up 12 used food-grade 5G buckets from a bakery in Gatineau for $2/unit. I'm sure any other bakery has these sitting in the corner and would be happy to get ride of them and maybe have some extra play $.

FYI - I have a couple extra food-grade 55G blue barrels if you might be interested. $10 each. They need to be cleaned out. Send me a pm if interested.

[325abn]

If we use "food grade" buckets and put not food grade lids on them doesn't that void any benifit from using the food grade bucket in the first place?

[happy thoughts]

If we use "food grade" buckets and put not food grade lids on them doesn't that void any benifit from using the food grade bucket in the first place?

My answer would be yes. Both bucket and lid need to be food grade.

[spencer11]

My answer would be yes. Both bucket and lid need to be food grade.
If the sap doesn't touch the lid...why does it have to be food grade?

[happy thoughts]

If the sap doesn't touch the lid...why does it have to be food grade?

There's always the possibility of liquid sloshing onto the lid at which point it becomes tainted by whatever the lid contained (or was coated with in the case of a non food grade mold releaser) that makes it non food grade. There's always sloshing in my pails when I carry them. Granted it's a fine point and you wouldn't expect much contamination with minimal contact, but food grade means food grade and all surfaces that food touches should be food grade. You probably wouldn't replace a milk jug lid with one from a motor oil bottle even if it was clean enough.

[spencer11]

There's always the possibility of liquid sloshing onto the lid at which point it becomes tainted by whatever the lid contained (or was coated with in the case of a non food grade mold releaser) that makes it non food grade. There's always sloshing in my pails when I carry them. Granted it's a fine point and you wouldn't expect much contamination with minimal contact, but food grade means food grade and all surfaces that food touches should be food grade. You probably wouldn't replace a milk jug lid with one from a motor oil bottle even if it was clean enough.
I actually don't use lids while collecting, takes to much time to put them on and take them off, but anyway when I have tubing run into a 5 gallon bucket, sap doesn't touch the lid...unless it over flows which is very, very rare...kinda like having a food grade arch

[happy thoughts]

I actually don't use lids while collecting, takes to much time to put them on and take them off, but anyway when I have tubing run into a 5 gallon bucket, sap doesn't touch the lid...unless it over flows which is very, very rare...kinda like having a food grade arch

But here's another thought spencer which I just noticed opening a bucket of stored sap getting ready to boil today- condensation on the lid. That will drip into your bucket of sap. I would almost be certain you'll get condensation on those collection bucket lids on a day sap is flowing.

It's up to you and your personal comfort level. I'm not trying to be the food grade nazi here, lol but technically if you are ever inspected your collection equipment would fall out for compliance should they go that far in checking.

[lyford]

Don- what size are yours and did you get the food safe lids

[bowtie]

man i trying my hardest to get to 200 posts by this weekend!!
i believe/thought the lids for the foodgrade buckets at lowes were also food grade, it doesn't matter to me i do not use the lids but it could be an issue if you do. spencer, you could always make flat metal lids and put a rock or two on it to hold it on. if you have put this thought into this subject you are probably 10 times better than most producers. i still see tons of galv. stock tanks on the side of roads with tubing run into them. i'm pretty sure they never get washed out either.
i walk through a radation chamber before i touch anything maple related and have tried to get permits from the gov't to have them use my sugarbush as a nuclear storage area, as to kill any contaminents that may be lurking out there. no luck yet!!
guys just use some common sense and rely on the knowledge from the experts we have at our disposal and you should be fine.

[happy thoughts]

Not a bad idea bowtie, but thinking through all the tons of FDA material re food grade containers I sifted through last year, (that thought just gave me a headache, lol), all that may be needed is a food grade barrier. A sheet of food grade plastic wrap may work. Many of the plastic soda bottles in use may not be entirely rated food grade, Some are built in layers and it's the inner layer that's the important one. If I remember correctly the FDA generally approved barrier layers like that in about the 4mil thick range or better, but even a layer of saran wrap is probably going to be better than nothing.

Now to help you in your posting quest bowtie, Just how radioactive are you? :o

[spencer11]

But here's another thought spencer which I just noticed opening a bucket of stored sap getting ready to boil today- condensation on the lid. That will drip into your bucket of sap. I would almost be certain you'll get condensation on those collection bucket lids on a day sap is flowing.

It's up to you and your personal comfort level. I'm not trying to be the food grade nazi here, lol but technically if you are ever inspected your collection equipment would fall out for compliance should they go that far in checking.
Didn't think of that, ill have to go check and see if there is any on a lid later.

I also see a lot of galvanized tanks/buckets being used to, a lot of people around here use them. I don't I only use plastic and will start switching to stainless next year. As for making metal lids....it would probably cost more..especially considering they will probably have to be stainless for the reason started by happy thoughts. It would probably be cheaper to just find a place that has food grade lids if it comes down to that

[Snowy Pass Maple]

All -

I thought the following may be of interest regarding the Encore buckets found at Lowes since there is no explicit sticker on the lid, or statement that explicitly refers to the lid only on the website. This response is consistent with many other online discussions that also state the same for both the Lowes buckets and the lighter-duty Encore products at Wal-Mart.


Linda Todi

3:19 PM (1 hour ago)

to me

If it is an Encore lid and it is white or natural in color then it is made with FDA approved resin. If it is colored lid, it is still food safe as there is nothing in the pigment that will leach into whatever is being stored in the pail.



I hope this helps!



Thank you for using Encore products.



Linda Todi

Sales Assistant

Encore Industries

(I removed the e-mail/phone for spamming reasons)

[325abn]

Geez I just don't get all the "bashing" of other producers, I am certainly glad it is not the norm here on MT.

[mathprofdk]

All -

I thought the following may be of interest regarding the Encore buckets found at Lowes since there is no explicit sticker on the lid, or statement that explicitly refers to the lid only on the website. This response is consistent with many other online discussions that also state the same for both the Lowes buckets and the lighter-duty Encore products at Wal-Mart.

If it is an Encore lid and it is white or natural in color then it is made with FDA approved resin. If it is colored lid, it is still food safe as there is nothing in the pigment that will leach into whatever is being stored in the pail.



Then they apparently don't have their story straight, because they explicitly told me on the phone that only the white and clear plastic was food safe. Yikes, if we can't call the manufacturer for a straight answer...

[DonMcJr]

I have two 55 gallon and a 40 gallon.

Here's from Rubbermaid's Site: http://www.rubbermaidcommercial.com/rcp/products/detail.jsp?rcpNum=2655

Durable, heavy-duty containers for a variety of uses.

All-plastic, professional-grade construction will not rust, chip or peel; resists dents.
Strong, snap-on lids are available for secure, stable stacking.
Reinforced rims add strength and durability.
Built-in handles allow easy, non-slip lifting and anti-jam nesting.
Double-ribbed base increases stability and dragging capacity.
Gray, White and Yellow are USDA Meat & Poultry Equipment Group Listed and assist in complying with HACCP guidelines.
Certified to NSF Standard #2 (gray, white and yellow) and Standard #21(all colors)
Custom imprinting available; contact Rubbermaid Customer Service at (800) 347-9800 for details.

Guess the Gray, White and Yellow are ok to use according to this provided they are new or from a Food Use...

Which leads me to this... If all we need on a bucket is NFS 2 then I believe Lowes Blue Buckets said NFS 2 on the Bottom BUT don't quote me on that, check it for yourself...

NSF/ANSI Standard 2: Food Service Equipment
Equipment commonly known as 'fabricated food equipment': kitchen, bakery, pantry and cafeteria units, and other food handling and processing equipment including tables and components, counters, shelves, sinks, hoods, etc.

[spencer11]

I have two 55 gallon and a 40 gallon.

Here's from Rubbermaid's Site: http://www.rubbermaidcommercial.com/rcp/products/detail.jsp?rcpNum=2655

Durable, heavy-duty containers for a variety of uses.

All-plastic, professional-grade construction will not rust, chip or peel; resists dents.
Strong, snap-on lids are available for secure, stable stacking.
Reinforced rims add strength and durability.
Built-in handles allow easy, non-slip lifting and anti-jam nesting.
Double-ribbed base increases stability and dragging capacity.
Gray, White and Yellow are USDA Meat & Poultry Equipment Group Listed and assist in complying with HACCP guidelines.
Certified to NSF Standard #2 (gray, white and yellow) and Standard #21(all colors)
Custom imprinting available; contact Rubbermaid Customer Service at (800) 347-9800 for details.

Guess the Gray, White and Yellow are ok to use according to this provided they are new or from a Food Use...

Which leads me to this... If all we need on a bucket is NFS 2 then I believe Lowes Blue Buckets said NFS 2 on the Bottom BUT don't quote me on that, check it for yourself...

NSF/ANSI Standard 2: Food Service Equipment
Equipment commonly known as 'fabricated food equipment': kitchen, bakery, pantry and cafeteria units, and other food handling and processing equipment including tables and components, counters, shelves, sinks, hoods, etc.
I believe they say NSF #2 on the bottom of the gray and blue buckets, and the gray or blue lids also do. The blue buckets and both color lids say hdpe to. They aren't stamped food grade though

[DonMcJr]

I'm no expert but NSF 2 I think is all it needs to say UNLESS the manufacturer isn't changing their Mold Stamps between the two. Which if that is true it should be illegal. This is the 1st time I actually looked into the Markings I just always bought stuff clearly Marked "Food Grade".

If the Blue Lowes ones are Food Grade too I'd be $30 Richer this year alone LOL!

[DonMcJr]

Gray, White and Yellow are USDA Meat & Poultry Equipment Group Listed and assist in complying with HACCP guidelines.

ANyone know what that means?

Also anyone know FOR SURE what markings we have to look for?

Dr Tim?

[happy thoughts]

Gray, White and Yellow are USDA Meat & Poultry Equipment Group Listed and assist in complying with HACCP guidelines.

ANyone know what that means?

Also anyone know FOR SURE what markings we have to look for?

Dr Tim?

I just looked that up after reading your first post about the rubeermaid HACCP stands for Hazard Analysis & Critical Control Points. per the FDA.... "HACCP is a management system in which food safety is addressed through the analysis and control of biological, chemical, and physical hazards from raw material production, procurement and handling, to manufacturing, distribution and consumption of the finished product. Approved for meat and poultry means exactly that, meat and poultry... though I'd hazard the guess that it's also safe for sap held at normal temps.

You may or may not find any markings on food safe containers. The markings are relatively new. There really haven't been any set standards by the FDA, just interpretations on containers submitted by manufacturers and the intended use for that container on a case by case basis.. If you want me to try and explain how food grade is determined via the FDA you better plan on spending a while:).

[lyford]

Don, thanks for the info, I'm trying to find a food safe container that will fit in my garage fridge (w/ all the shelves taken out). I'm gonna look up the dimensions on those rubbermaid containers, gotta find the biggest one that will still fit in the fridge. I know they make at least 20g,32g,40g, and 55g. Since i can only boil the wkends i'm thinking this may be a good way to store my sap.

[325abn]

I would suggest making some sap ice blocks and put them in you bulk tank / container as oposed to putting the container in the fridge. I have done this in the past along with keeping the tank in the shade with good results.

[Run Forest Run!]

Don, thanks for the info, I'm trying to find a food safe container that will fit in my garage fridge (w/ all the shelves taken out).

I might be cautious in case the bottom of your fridge can't hold the weight of all that sap and the container. You'd hate to find out the hard way that it can't. Maybe if some other forum member has tried this they can give you the thumbs up or thumbs waaaaay down on the idea.

[lyford]

i know it can support at least 25-30 gal of fluid, it is currently home to 5-5gal kegs of homebrew, not sure about any more than that

325abn-does the ice last even in the late season

[325abn]

You can cycle making new blocks as you use them. Really the end is when it is most needed anyway. On the other hand I think I have used a light bulb more often to keep the sap from freezing solid! I hang a drop light into the tank right where my pump pick up is.

[happy thoughts]

I would suggest making some sap ice blocks and put them in you bulk tank / container as oposed to putting the container in the fridge. I have done this in the past along with keeping the tank in the shade with good results.

I agree with abn especially if outdoor temps are going to be colder than your fridge. Your fridge temp is probably in the neighborhood of 40F or should be. I can keep my sap colder outdoors in a shaded place right now and actually freeze it. Later in the season is more the problem, again as abn said. That's where keeping in the fridge may be the better option.

[DonMcJr]

Freeze some 2 Liter Soda Pop Bottle with 3/4 water in them. Of course remove any stickers outside and wash inside and out. Float them in the sap. As they thaw out switch them out. That's what I did last year to keep 40 gallons good in warm weather until I went and got my Half Pint:lol:

Even put a blanket over the container to "Insulate" it from the evil warm air!

[happy thoughts]

Freezing sap instead of water is even better. You won't dilute the sap if there's a leak and you're not taking up valuable storage space with plain water.