Mainline ends

[cur dog]

Just curious what everybody does at the end of their mainlines? Does everybody use a tension grip on the end of their mainline? It seems like mine are fairly tight and straight without them.

Do you guys just use a plug in the end, or a valve? How about a valve and Vacuum gauge?

[spencer11]

i use a plug, and since i ran mine with out wire i just used hose clams on the end, tension grips are expensive!

[GeneralStark]

Just curious what everybody does at the end of their mainlines? Does everybody use a tension grip on the end of their mainline? It seems like mine are fairly tight and straight without them.

Do you guys just use a plug in the end, or a valve? How about a valve and Vacuum gauge?

I use a non-maple stainless thread/barb and a plastic valve. All my lateral mainlines are wireless, so I do use a tension grip. On my mains I use hose clamps to hold the pipe to the wire and valves as already described.

I like to wash at the end of the season under vacuum, so the valves allow me to do this. And it allows for testing vacuum with a gauge. I have seen plastic plugs and hose clamps used by larger producers in the area.

[maple flats]

I've done all those methods. I like a valve at the end now, but sometimes the valve gets installed after the 1st season, before cleaning. Last season I didn't even clean them, I just ran the vacuum pump on each main until all signs of moisture were gone. A valve was needed for that too.

[TunbridgeDave]

I don't use grips anymore either. The most important thing is keeping the wire ties tight and replacing any that have broken over the years. I just re-hung our 1 1/4 main on one side of our sugarbush. After 15 years it had worked it's way down the hill about 4 feet. It had to cross several brooks and was 40 feet in the air so it was hard to maintain. We moved it to a different location.

[maple man]

Grips are only way to keep line tight. Unles you live in the mountains us flat landers have to keep them tight.

[maple flats]

I prefer grips on all, flat land and hills. Yes, they are pricey but they do the job best.

[adk1]

I use tension grips to get the line tight and a ratched for the wire. once I installed all of the wire ties I removed the tension grip. my line is tight for sure.

[unc23win]

I also like to use the tension grip when first installing new mainline. I use 12.5 gauge high tensil fence wire with a spring and ratchet at one end and only a ratchet at the other end the spring helps maintain tension. I like ratchets at both ends simply for having an option of tightening it at either end. They say a car can hit a properly installed high tensil fence and bounce back. It for sure helps to have all the tools which I have for fencing as I build a few miles a year either for my cows or my horses.

I have also used some Lapierre 3/4" mainline that is pre wrapped it has like maybe 20 guage wire wrapped around it holding 9 guage wire on the line. The only downside is its 9 guage wire and I had to find special splices to make the ends work with my 12.5 guage wire. Occasionly I have to cut the small wire in order to be able to get the saddle under the 9 guage wire. When I do that I just do a coulple of ties where I cut the wire.

[Amber Gold]

I used to use barb/male adapter with a valve at each end. This year, I've changed them to a barbedxfemale elbow adapter with a cap. Less chance for a vac. leak. At the end of the year, I'll take the cap off to get air into the mainline to suck any remaining liquid out. It also allows me to put vac. gauges at the ends if I want.

[Cider Hill Maple Farm]

I would like to add another question to this thread. Has anyone attached a star fitting at the end of the main-line to reach out to trees up the slope? Seems to me you can grab those 20 to 25 taps uphill with one fitting rather than three saddle fittings and extra main-line. Not to confuse anyone, I'm talking about stopping the main around 150ft from the last tree higher up the slope. Thanks in advance.

[unc23win]

Yea that works for a good end to save on mainline. Not only that with a star fitting you could still have a valve if you wanted as some people in this thread were talking about. Most people don't do stars in mainline much any more because of making the splice, but at the end of the line its not a bad idea. In fact I just thought of one place that I could try one at the end of a mainline I am working on. I will probably put a valve on and a maybe a guage as well after the star. I use to always end my mainline with lamb manifolds same basic idea then use them to hold the line tight before I started wiring and tying.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

We stopped our main lines 100' from the end of the woods over our entire install last year thinking that latterals can be up to 100' long. It was the single biggest mistake we made in the install. To quote Paul "everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial". We didn't get to it this year, but we are going to extend the mains (and there is a bunch of them) out to the end of the woods and shorten those latterals.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Sunday Rock is correct. You want your vacuum transfer to be as efficient as possible to all your taps hence more mainline and less lateral line. If you try to save a dollar or two now, in a couple of years you will be in the situation that many of us have gone through... why didn't I....?

[markcasper]

Sunday Rock is correct. You want your vacuum transfer to be as efficient as possible to all your taps hence more mainline and less lateral line. If you try to save a dollar or two now, in a couple of years you will be in the situation that many of us have gone through... why didn't I....?

I am confused.....how can putting a star on the very end to pick up those 10 extra taps within 50 feet of the end cause a big loss in vacuum transfer???

On a side note, I was at a seminar in December and the guy said do not ever run a lateral around a bend, keep it as straight as possible to the mainline. His reasoning was that 70% of the ability to transfer vacuum is lost in a 5/16" by not staying straight.. Is this the reason for not going with an end star??

[PerryFamily]

I have used a 4-way star on the end of my mains. Results have yet to be seen. But, the fitting is at the very end. Meaning I did not stop the main short to save main line. The most amount of taps on any one line is 5 Max, most only one or two. My thinking behind this was so there was not 4 saddles in the last 3'. The length is no longer than 50' on any 5/16 either. I think it will be fine but time will tell.

[unc23win]

Gentlemen I answered Cider Hill based on gravity I didn't see any mention of vacuum being made in the question. I myself might use a star at the very end of the mainline in place of a saddle maybe. In the case of gravity up a good slope 150' might get Cider Hill some natural vacuum people are always talking about.

[markcasper]

We stopped our main lines 100' from the end of the woods over our entire install last year thinking that latterals can be up to 100' long. It was the single biggest mistake we made in the install. To quote Paul "everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial". We didn't get to it this year, but we are going to extend the mains (and there is a bunch of them) out to the end of the woods and shorten those latterals.

Could you explain why its the biggest mistake? it must not as bad as it sounds because you are still going to use it again this season without changing it?

[spencer11]

Could you explain why its the biggest mistake? it must not as bad as it sounds because you are still going to use it again this season without changing it?
Well I assume he said its a big mistake cause he now has really long lats or can't pick up more trees cause he stopped short.mnow when he wants to add on he needs a connector which is another possible vac leak and can cause ice dams unless you go it's stainless fittings

[GeneralStark]

In a gravity system, a star manifold at the end of the mainline probably makes sense, but it in a vacuum system, it is less than ideal. The main reason being that you are limiting vacuum transfer to those multiple laterals due to only one connection to the mainline for those several laterals. Additionally, if there is one leak in one of those laterals connected to the star, it will dramatically reduce vacuum to the rest on the star.

When I first installed my system, I did use a few stars at the end of a few lateral mains due to limited funds for more mainline. Since then, I have extended those mains and reconfigured the laterals to go to single saddles. I have one more star to replace next fall.

Stars and double saddles are rarely seen in the most state of the art installations. I have been watching an installation in a sugarbush in my region over the last couple of years that is presently up to 25,000 taps, and I have not seen a single star manifold or double saddle in those woods. There is a great deal that we small producers can learn from the big guys.

[ennismaple]

We've been replacing all our star manifolds over the last few years for the exact reasons noted above. In some cases we leave one lateral on the star but we shorten the other laterals to go more directly to the mainline via their own single saddle manifold.

The additional cost to extend the mainline another 50ft is not very high. This will shorten your laterals (you save on 5/16" tubing) and increase vacuum levels at the taphole = more sap. The slight extra cost pays for itself very quickly!

[Cider Hill Maple Farm]

Not to doubt anyone with their experience, but what would be the difference between using the star fiiting at the end or using the same fitting for a sap ladder? This bush is all gravity with 5%+ grade.

[unc23win]

Thats a good question. I think someone mentioned something about a star and a double saddle compared to a single saddle. I know there was a thread where a problem with double saddles was discussed I beleive it was that the sap would go across the saddle and not into the mainline. I don't have star right here but if I remember right the the entrance into the mainline is through each 5/16" barb (same as saddle) and then it opens right up to 1/2" or 3/4" (again same as saddle) I dont see any limiting there. As far as vacuum leaks well obviously the more connections you make the more chances there are for leaks, but if it is tight and the laterals aren't crimped off the vacuum should be the same. Does it require more checking? Maybe But as you mentioned before and once again your not on vacuum. I am also guessing that you have a situation where you have plenty of lateral line and you are out of mainline well it was mentioned before there is 500' in a roll so use what you have.

[GeneralStark]

Sap ladders are a less than ideal situation.

Why a star is not as effective as a single saddle relates to line loss or friction in the pipe. There is less friction in a 3/4" pipe than in a 5/16" lateral. The more lateral you have on a connection to a mainline (in a vacuum system) the more friction you have so a star is in essence like increasing the length of your laterals.

This is why vacuum systems are set up differently than gravity, and why the rule with vacuum is more or oversized mainline, shorter laterals, and keeping the number of taps/lateral to 5 or less (strive for five).

[Sunday Rock Maple]

As the (very short) season went on last year I began to suspect that sap was not getting out of those 100' long laterals (not much slope in our woods) as quickly as we'd like. when we pulled the spouts at the end of the season with the vacuum on those thoughts were confirmed. So that was the mistake, it was the biggest (of many -- but not as many as it would of been without all you good folks on the trader) as we have over 40 1" main line ends that stop up to 100' too short. We didn't get to it mainly due to the cost (one daughter married in August and another in December) and the time (our sweet corn and pumpkin crops eat up a lot of it). We will, though, we will.......

[markcasper]

Ok....I kind of get it a little bit more now and was just asking since I am installing a new system now and will be over the next few years. I recently picked up some trees on a neighbors that can be ran into mine, the situation is the landowner is scared the lines on his will scare the deer away and he wants the lines at least rolled back to the fence at the end of the season. I have the mainline parraleling the fence line as not to run mainline into his. I don't want to have to deal with rolling up mainline, just lats and was thinking at the end of the mains I could run some stars.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

This is good information. I am off to the woods to install saddles instead of a star manifolds at the end of my main line. I do use double saddles and am reading that they have performance problems. I am wondering that since they are roughly the same price as singles, are they better if you just plug off one of the fittings with a cap. I ask because of the diameter of the whole cut into the mainline. For the single little saddles the whole is 1/4 " I think and the bit I use for the doubles if 3/8". So I am wondering if the doubles are as good if not better if you cap one of the ends because it allows sap into the mainline faster?

[mapleack]

A capped double saddle is an extra place to leak. I'm using fixed head singles that take a 31/64 bit to install, almost half an inch.

[ennismaple]

Not to doubt anyone with their experience, but what would be the difference between using the star fiiting at the end or using the same fitting for a sap ladder? This bush is all gravity with 5%+ grade.

On gravity it doesn't matter much. On vacuum you can prove our point by introducing a leak in one lateral coming into a star fitting or double saddle. The air rushing down the leaky lateral will push the sap back up the other laterals coming into the star/double saddle. At the very least it significantly reduces the vacuum levels in the other laterals.

[Cider Hill Maple Farm]

It's a good thing I haven't put out any runs yet in this bush! Next weekend the pipe is going up, so I guess the maineline will start at the last tree and end at the tank, I think 3,000ft of 3/4" will do for 200ft runs for this bush. Thanks for the input!

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Our plan for the double saddles that we put in last year is to put in a new single, move one latteral to tha,t and then cut a "T" into the other latteral and dead end it to the double. This is based on the theory that the 30P on the "T" will seal better than a cap. If that doesn't work then plan "B" would be to change them all to singles. One things for sure though, we aren't buying any more doubles...

[The Sweet Spot]

I am installing main lines as we speak. I would like to thank all of the experenced producers and the unexperenced ones too. If all us new guys didn't ask these questions ya'll wouldn't be giving us all the great answers. I am using mostly used mainline that was set up with old stars. All plastic for now, I hope to install the rest of our bush with underground mains. At that point I imagine having cedar posts with secoundary mains from there. I plan to use 4" pvc 20' with the belled ends glued. Has anyone done this?

[ennismaple]

"Experienced" is the nice way to say we've already made a lot of mistakes that others can learn from! Don't worry - every year I gain more "experience" by screwing up new things!!!