land boundry and tubing placement question. need some suggestions on what to do

[sdixon8]

when i layed out my tubing. i put the lowest mainline just above what i thought was the land line. their is a fence line for the land border and i am on my side of the fence. but one of our neighbors sold their place and had their land servayed. and they put new corner pins in about 10 feet inside the fence line . but i am concerned now that my main line is now on his property by about 6 feet. the new owners havent said anything about the tubing being their, and i dont know if they will. my question is if the fence has been the line for 20 plus years could the survayers be wrong in their placement of pins?

[mapleack]

They could be wrong, BUT, if every old fence line was right our jobs would be alot easier. (I work for a surveying company) If you approach the surveyor in a friendly manner they should be willing to show you what went into their decision, as they were marking the neighbors line but also yours since they are one in the same. If you're not satisfied with what they show you then you'll have to hire your own surveyor to confirm or dispute what they've arrived at.

[jmayerl]

No the survayers are not wrong. Many fence lines and rock piles are way off (5-10 feet). The only way to be sure of property lines without having a certified survay is it you have the old metal stakes in the ground and you know they havnt been moved. I would talk to the neighbor and tell them the deal. Give them alittle syrup and ask if you can keep the line there until it needs to be upgraded and then move it.

[325abn]

dam thats a lot of land to be out of!! What about any orginal blazed trees? I would be out there with a magnifing glass looking for any signs.

I know here rock walls serve as plenty of property lines but I dont know about rock piles??

[HyeOnMaple]

I agree with jmayerl, be proactive and positively engaging. Offer syrup and they could be the best neighbors (and boiling buddies) you could ask for. Let it go to lawyers, and your neighbor becomes your nightmare. If he balks, move it (with a smile) and the issue no longer hangs over your head. Know this, as long as he permits your line on his property, you are at the mercy of his wimsy and are beholden to him for that time (unless you lease that small tract). And as Mapleack suggested, hire your own surveyor. How long is the main line in question?

[maple flats]

Surveys often don't agree, as strange as it may sound. Even though you would think a survey is exact, there are a huge number of variables that go into a surveyor's line (stake or pin placements)
I would try to be a good neighbor and ask about leasing the strip, in a written lease for at least 5 yrs and preferably 10. In the lease spell out the per tap rate and how it is calculated, showing what happens to it after the first year (I tie mine to the inflation rate reflected in SS payments, this yr those on SS got a 1.7% raise, my tap rate did too) I pay mine in syrup first, then by check.
When the landowner is armed with a written lease, they can qualify for a AG Assessment, which will further aid them. For that you will need to file a statement in the application showing your sales from farming, which must be a min. of $10,000 average for the previous 2 yrs. You will need to submit a form every year the Ag Assessment will be applied for (annual renewal is required) The first year the form is much longer, but renewals are 1 page and fast and easy. At 4000 taps you will have no problem even if you only sell bulk. The sales figure must come off your Farm schedule on your income taxes. The result will be a rather nice reduction in the land owners property taxes. (My biggest landowner said his tax savings was slightly more than twice what I pay in lease pmts, and I paid $.75/tap when he said that. In the lease spell out the timing of the payment. In mine I pay $100 at the beginning of each lease year, and the bal on or before June 1 following the season. I pay the syrup portion as produced or as needed by the land owner. Both of my leases are paid in large part in syrup as land owners like to use some as gifts for family and friends as well as their own use. My policy for syrup in lease pmts is to calculate it at the gal rate, thus if they want it in qts, 4 qts is calculated as 1 gal (retail customers would love that).
The other approach would be to have your land surveyed (by a different surveyor). The result will rarely agree with the current line, then legal battles ensue. Have you read many deed descriptions? If a parcel was divided from a larger one you need to go to the original description. On my land one corner is identified as " by Widow Smith's old hay wagon" (from a deed dated in the 1850's) and another corner as "near the old sugar maple stump, while a third is at a pile of rocks with an iron pipe in it. The rocks nor pipe were never found. Is it any wonder surveyors get different results. I don't suggest that route if it can be avoided. Your neighbor will be against you forever.
As for fence lines, most lines had a fence meandering along them 100+ yrs ago, but a 20 yrs old fence would rarely be so precise.

[aws]

I had a similar experience when I built my house. I had to have an accurate survey in order to place my house on my narrow piece of land. If I placed it wrong I could be forced to move the house! The previous surveyor placed his pins wrong and it was causing confusion and bad feelings with only one of my three neighbors. I ended up hiring the surveyor that does all the towns' surveying to redo it. 16' difference between the to surveys. Hiring the same contractor the town uses also gave the new survey clout at planning board meetings.

[heus]

Dont know what your local laws are , but if you are thinking of getting a surveyor do it asap. As soon as the county approves the other survey it might be too late to contest it. Dont know for sure just throwing that out there.

[jray]

I worked for a surveyor some years ago and it was his belief that all property lines were plus or minus 10' on average. His reasoning went to the fact hat when the country was first surveyed the accuracy of those surveys was inconsistent to say the least. Every few years we would go survey a property line between two feuding neighbors and every time the line would be different. I don't know if the legal concepts of adverse possession or prescriptive easement would apply in this case and I hope you don't have to find out. Rather I hope you can speak with your neighbor and work things out. As others have suggested, sweeten the deal!

[heus]

Land is precious if you feel the survey is wrong do something about it. But approach your new neighbor in a non-threatening, friendly way like others said. Like I said land is precious. There's at least 3 things id be willing to die for: my family, my guns, and my land.

[325abn]

What he said!

I think once you sign a lease thats the same as saying you agree and you lose that land.

[sdixon8]

it is about 1500 feet of tubing. i am somewhat good relations with him. he buy about 20 gallons of syrup a year from me when we are boiling. but he has comments when he is at the sugar house that kinda erk me, the one about being the lazy for having a auto draw off , but i take it with a grain of salt. i dont think he knows that the tubing is on his land. i only found out this fact last week when i was cleaning up some trees for firewood and found the stake. we have alway figured the fence is the line. even when both parties logged. but i dont know how he will take it when i tell him next time i see him. i might aproach him with a lease but i dont think he will agree on it. some of the amish around here are kinda weird at times. would be just fun time taking that tubing down and moving it and tap next week hahahahaha thanks for all your ideas

[325abn]

It sounds like you agree with his survey 100%. Do you?

[PACMAN]

I have to ask, was the servey a GPS servey or done the old way? I had my property serveyed 2 years ago and thats how I found out about my sugar bush. The property was last surveyed in 1913 and my grandfather and uncles and my dad always marked the property lines over the years. So,in 2011 I had a GPS servey done and found out that the line was off by 350 yards in width and 2860 feet in length.the whole bush has never seen a chainsaw till now.It does make a diferance how it was serveyed.

[maple flats]

PACMAN, I've heard of discrepincies, but not by that amount. What overall size are we talking? That is over a half mile x almost 1/4 mile. That's huge!

[PACMAN]

Thats how big the sugar bush is Flats. I would have never known if it werent for that GPS servey. Bigger than what I will probably ever be able to use. Im new at this game, last year was my first year.

[GGervais]

Have you seen the survey plat? It is possible that the "pin" you saw was only a traverse point used to locate fencelines and other boundary or possession evidence. I am a surveyor and i know often when i set a spike or wooden stake to mark my traverse points the landowners believe that is the boundary pin.

[ericjeeper]

It could be a survey marker. Section line.. has nothing to do with anyones property line.

[sdixon8]

i am pretty sure that that pin is a corner pin it is in the right area for a pin. i really have no reason to agree or disagree with his survey. that line hasnt be survyed in maybe 100 years or so. all the neighbors on that side of property have always assumed that the fence is the line. and i know fence lines can and do move over time. i will try to talk to him about a lease so i dont have to move all that line. i was just cerious about how close a gps survey was, and i thank everyone for the input

[DonMcJr]

When I had my Land Surveyed they made the front Property Line about 60 yards further into the next parcels Property. I thought cool, I didn't know that was mine too! 2 days later they came back and said they made an error and it ended up being where I thought it should be. I asked them how accurate they are and they said it should be really close to right on and it will hold up in court.

So I would get ahold of that survey company and ask them if they double checked everything since that fence has been there for years.

I found an old fenceline at the back of my field and my property actually goes another 70 yards into the woods and I bet my fence was just in the field to keep livestock out of the woods and was not a Property Line Fence.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I would ask the surveyor to come out and blaze the lines. then you would know exactly what he was thinking.