Dangers of using non food grade containers?

[rossbarramen]

what are the dangers and how realistic are they??

[DonMcJr]

If you used a "New" container that isn't Food grade the recycled platic could have been used in Oil, Gas, Acid and a bunch of other hazardous sustances and that could leach into your Sap/Syrup.

If it's a used Container that threat will be even greater if a posionous susbance was previously stored in it.

Don't take any chances and buy NEW Food Grade Containers. Period.

Remember too even if it's a used food grade container if it was used to store say grapes you still could get a grape taste in your sap/syrup.

[happy thoughts]

That's going to depend on what was in them if they were used before and/or what was in them if made from recycled material. That they are considered non food grade implies some risk. Most plastic is absorbent to some extent.

[ennismaple]

what are the dangers and how realistic are they??

Realistic enough that only new, food grade containers should be used! If you won't feed the syrup that comes out of that jug to your own 3-year old - don't sell it to anyone.

[happy thoughts]

rossbarramen- this comes up more than a few times a year and sometimes it gets ugly and feelings get hurt :o Before that happens, I'd just like you to know that yours is a legitimate question so I'm glad you asked it. To answer your question more fully, it is sometimes the dyes used in the container that makes it non food grade. This is why I wouldn't trust a bucket like those sold at Lowe's or Home Depot though they may look just like a food grade one except for the color. Also, making syrup is labor intensive and imho you should use best practices to make a quality product even if it is for home use only.

Best wishes for a great season if you're tapping this year!

[English River Maple]

The more the industry grows, the more attention this topic will bring, I'm quite sure. I think it's necessary to remind and raise awareness. I can't believe some of the cattle stock tanks made from recycled plastics and trash cans that people try to sell as sap tanks...and the worst part is the most of the sellers already used them for sap. How many used them and poured 180 degree syrup in them to store before bottling? I think yesterday was time for anyone to review their operations to look at their equipment to ensure food safety. One would have to think that the life of using galvenized sap buckets and stock tanks will end someday as well. We still tap a few hundred galvy buckets, but will be switching to food grade plastic or all tubing as soon as we can afford it. I think it's a wise direction to go. Good topic, good discussion.

[bowtie]

i asked this question a couple of years ago when i first started, i like many others bought a galv tank on the advice of other local maplers and thought it was safe but i learned that it isn't and it gets used to raise chicks in now. buy only food grade plastics, aluminum and clean ss items. if you can not afford to buy "enough" ,start small and build up, it is what most of us newbies are doing. better and cheaper to do it right the first time.
i have 90% aluminum buckets but still have about 40-50 galv buckets if they are in good shape they say they are fine to use. most of the big maple stores still sell mostly galv vs aluminum for buckets. mark my words in the near future many of the food grade plastics we use, we will learn contain substances that are harmful to us. that being said if we use the most comprehensive and safe materials in the market what more can we do. the funny thing about this topic is that a lot maple suppliers sell alot of galv stocks for collection and storage of sap!! it seems that the dollar is more important to some.

[lyford]

This may seem like a stupid question, but I am new to this, whats the issue with galvanized?

[English River Maple]

Excellent point on the dollar calling the shots. I see alot more galvanized for sale on craigslist over the recent years too. I almost feel that most know where things are going. Like you said, I guess all we can do is find the best deals on the safest products. As far as the maple suppliers and equipment businesses that sell old used galvy tanks, etc., if there are no guidelines, regulations and standards for sap and syrup handling equipment, then it's fair game to them I guess. They're in it turn over some cash. I know the direction we're going and hopefully It doesn't take us long to get there. We're very close.

[English River Maple]

This may seem like a stupid question, but I am new to this, whats the issue with galvanized?

Good question, not stupid at all, I don't know the whole story but I know that some galvanized coatings used circa mid 80's and earlier was made with a fair amount of lead in it. There are some old Dr.Tim posts on this site that give detailed information regarding galvanized, zinc, lead, etc, which clarifies some concerns about using galvanized equipment pre and post 1980's. If you search Dr. Tim's posts, you will find it.

[English River Maple]

This may seem like a stupid question, but I am new to this, whats the issue with galvanized?

Found the Dr. Tim posts, I'll stop posting so many posts now:)

http://mapletrader.com/community/archive/index.php/t-7455.html

[rossbarramen]

rossbarramen- this comes up more than a few times a year and sometimes it gets ugly and feelings get hurt :o Before that happens, I'd just like you to know that yours is a legitimate question so I'm glad you asked it. To answer your question more fully, it is sometimes the dyes used in the container that makes it non food grade. This is why I wouldn't trust a bucket like those sold at Lowe's or Home Depot though they may look just like a food grade one except for the color. Also, making syrup is labor intensive and imho you should use best practices to make a quality product even if it is for home use only.

Best wishes for a great season if you're tapping this year! by far the nicest and most helpful person on all of the website i truley appreciate your help and kindness, i wish you the best of luck in your season!!

[markct]

I strive to make sure everything in my operation is food grade, its important to remember that anything that leaches into your sap, lead, chemicals from plastic or previous contents, while it may be not that big of an amount you then boil it and concentrate that 40 times or more thus making it much worse

[lyford]

Interesting read, thanks English River

[325abn]

And what of the thousands upon thousands of gal sap buckets that are in use?

[DonMcJr]

You know some people might think if you can clean it out it's good to use... I saw a youtube video with a storage bin that has the white and black diamond for corrosives... I was gonna send him a message but now I can't find the video again.

I wouldn't trust any container unless it's rated Food Grade. Period.

I founf the video and commented on it in a nice way...tell me if I am wrong but at 32 seconds he says he has 2 food grade storage tanks and to me it's clealry this Placard...
http://www.mysafetysign.com/companies/safetyxpress/department/Corrosive-Safety-Placards.png

Here's the Video


http://youtu.be/JBB-k_8xsu0

[happy thoughts]

And what of the thousands upon thousands of gal sap buckets that are in use?

That's a fair question. For one, lead containing buckets are older ones that haven't been made for the last 20 years or so. Hopefully most have gracefully died and gone to heaven by now but if you have concerns, you can have your syrup tested. From what I understand, good filtering will decrease the risk as well since most of the lead is found in the nitre. As for zinc, I don't know. Zinc is a fairly new area of concern but like lead I would also assume (which we all know can be dangerous :) ) that it will also precipitate out in the nitre.

As more and more big operations go to tubing and vacuum, the lead contamination should become less and less of an issue. With the FDA food safety act now in the maple syrup picture, I would not be surprised if they eventually address this and require SS for at least sap storage as I believe is the case in Quebec. We'll see.....

[heus]

As long as Bascoms keeps selling used galvanized stock tanks, people are going to think its ok to use them.

[325abn]

So it is a food grade tank afterall!!! Take that FDA!

[happy thoughts]

So it is a food grade tank afterall!!! Take that FDA!

If you got that from my post that is NOT what I said or implied. :( It would depend on what food is being stored in it. For instance, galvanized would not be considered food grade for milk. That said, I just looked further into it and this is what the FDA has to say about it, though not specifically addressing sap collection or storage.


http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/retailfoodprotection/foodcode/foodcode2009/ucm188064.htm

http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/ucm189212.htm

FDA Food Code 2009: Administrative Guidelines Chapter 4 - Equipment, Utensils, and Linens

4-101.15 Galvanized Metal, Use Limitation.

Galvanized means iron or steel coated with zinc, a heavy metal that may be leached from galvanized containers into foods that are high in water content. The risk of leaching increases with increased acidity of foods contacting the galvanized container.

Galvanized metal may not be used for utensils or food-contact surfaces of equipment that are used in contact with acidic food.

Sap is slightly acidic and becomes more acidic as it deteriorates. If the use of galvanized for sap storage is not yet specifically addressed by the FDA, give them a year or so.

[325abn]

I was talking about the caged tank in the video that is marked corrosive.

[lyford]

So for small time or hobby producers are the plastic bags or buckets the safest bet for collection?

[lyford]

I was given 12 galvanized buckets that I believe to be at least 20 years old, they are from my uncle and he hasn't made syrup in at least 20 years, I hope to use them at least for this first year at my new place.

[happy thoughts]

I was talking about the caged tank in the video that is marked corrosive.

lol Thank you for clarifying! :) But that said, even if considered food grade I would not feature a tank like that in a video about maple syrup. This is similar to another recent discussion we just had about reusing containers that held "food grade" antifreeze. There's always the public perception thing and there is no way of knowing from the hazard label exactly what was in them. Just seems like a bad business practice like using garbage cans for sap collection which does nothing to promote the industry in the eye of the public. Just sayin'....

[happy thoughts]

I was given 12 galvanized buckets that I believe to be at least 20 years old, they are from my uncle and he hasn't made syrup in at least 20 years, I hope to use them at least for this first year at my new place.

lyford- I'm no expert and am only a small hobby producer but with buckets that old there's a good chance they contain lead. Lead was banned from buckets in 1994. I'm not telling you what to do. Only you can decide for yourself but if you use them you should be aware of some recommended best practices when using questionable galvanized containers. As usual for all things maple, UVM has some good material on the subject. Link to a pdf file about lead is here:

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/LeadOut.pdf

In a nutshell- you want to minimize sap contact with those buckets if you suspect they aren't lead free and empty them frequently. The longer the sap sits the greater the potential for leaching. You also want to filter your syrup as soon as possible. if the sand sits in the syrup for any length of time, any lead that precipitates out can dissolve back into the syrup. You can also have your buckets and syrup tested if you want to be extra cautious.

Old taps can also contain high amounts of lead. If you're in doubt I'd suggest buying new ones. They're cheap enough, especially the seasonal plastic ones.

You could also use food grade plastic liners or bags if you can find ones large enough to fit your pails. I would also urge caution if you're planning on making and serving large amounts to children if you have them. Whatever leaches into your sap will end up highly concentrated in your syrup as I think Don already mentioned.

Good luck and enjoy the season. Be warned, it becomes an addiction in no time:)

[lyford]

Thanks for the info Happy Thoughts, I had no idea about this. The link you posted was very helpful, I'm wondering if I should just use 1 gal milk jugs this year instead. I do have a 2 and a 3 year old and the thought of hurting them does not sit well. I see you mention plastic liners any idea where I could find those, but not really sure I wanna use these buckets at all now. Thanks again.

[bowtie]

you can also try sap sacks and holders. i think they cost about $4-$5 new and then all you have to do is replace the sack each about $.50 i think. the upside of these is you do not need much storage in the offseason and minimal cleaning. i used a few milk jugs my first year they work fine, you may have some days when they run over but it all goes back to nature anyway. used aluminum buckets are $3-$5 each with lids about $1 each. look for used because a lot of prooducers are getting out buckets and going with tubing. so it should be a buyers market.

[happy thoughts]

I'm glad that was helpful. Milk jugs are fine. Lots of people use them though a few here question their use if there's any possibility of milk allergy in someone who will eat the syrup. I don't think that's really a big problem for most people but thought I should mention it. I use 5 Gal water jugs used for water coolers myself. Food grade buckets used in bakeries for icing and pastry filling are another thing that's*popular to use. You can make a nice water proof collection bucket with a little tubing. These 2-5 Gal pails are often free if you ask for them and they usually clean up pretty nicely.

Now have some serious fun making syrup :)

[lyford]

Thanks Happy Thoughts, looking forward to it!

[DonMcJr]

Lowes has white 5 gallon buckets that have food grade stickers on them...

[G-Unit]

[QUOTE=DonMcJr;202440]You know some people might think if you can clean it out it's good to use... I saw a youtube video with a storage bin that has the white and black diamond for corrosives... I was gonna send him a message but now I can't find the video again.

I wouldn't trust any container unless it's rated Food Grade. Period.

I founf the video and commented on it in a nice way...tell me if I am wrong but at 32 seconds he says he has 2 food grade storage tanks and to me it's clealry this Placard...
http://www.mysafetysign.com/companies/safetyxpress/department/Corrosive-Safety-Placards.png



I feel that I need to clarify my youtube video in regards to the food grade tanks that I use for storage. The one tank does have a corrosive sign on it, it originally had phosphoric acid in it from a soft drink manufacturer. Many people are shocked when they realize the soft drinks that we drink have acids in them. Next time you are enjoying one of your favorite carbonated soft drinks, take a look at the ingredient list and you will probably see phosphoric acid. When I bought the tank I had considered taking the labels off but didn't, because I did not see the need to hide what was originally in the tank, seeing it was food grade. A local tank supplier has been selling these tanks to maple syrup producers for years. I do agree that we need to be careful with how the public sees the maple syrup community, so I have decided to remove my youtube video in case someone finds my tank offensive. I do not want to show a dim view of maple syrup producers. Unfortunately, I got dragged into this discussion on the ills of using non-food grade materials, when in fact I am using safe food grade tanks.

[Jmsmithy]

FYI. Home Depot does sell a dye less, HDPE FDA approved food grade bucket (in lots of 10) online only...plus, free shipping....not cheap, about $65 or so per lot of 10 plus another another 10$ for lids...just received 20 of them plus lids. I'm ramping up for commercial production as I can afford stuff. Got another shipment coming end of month.

[happy thoughts]

I feel that I need to clarify my youtube video in regards to the food grade tanks that I use for storage. The one tank does have a corrosive sign on it, it originally had phosphoric acid in it from a soft drink manufacturer. Many people are shocked when they realize the soft drinks that we drink have acids in them. Next time you are enjoying one of your favorite carbonated soft drinks, take a look at the ingredient list and you will probably see phosphoric acid. When I bought the tank I had considered taking the labels off but didn't, because I did not see the need to hide what was originally in the tank, seeing it was food grade. A local tank supplier has been selling these tanks to maple syrup producers for years. I do agree that we need to be careful with how the public sees the maple syrup community, so I have decided to remove my youtube video in case someone finds my tank offensive. I do not want to show a dim view of maple syrup producers. Unfortunately, I got dragged into this discussion on the ills of using non-food grade materials, when in fact I am using safe food grade tanks.

G-unit- We've probably beaten this thread to death and for that I apologize. I'm also sorry you got dragged into it but I'm glad you wrote back. I think it was wise you removed the video for the reasons you stated. The sugaring industry supports a lot of small producers and public perception is everything. And with big start ups like Crown Maple here in the US that also has the money for big marketing, it's small things like that that can be used against the little guys. For instance, some organic syrup producers love to say that non organic syrup contains formaldehyde as we discovered here last year. There is still info like that on the net. Here's one for instance among many others....

http://www.maplevalleysyrup.coop/Certified-Organic-Grade-B-Maple-Syrup-p/0mvgradeb.htm

Nothing could be further from the truth of course since formaldehyde was banned about 20 years ago. But rumors persist and reputations die hard. I've written to a few of them but no one has corrected the misinformation so far.

That said, I hope you'll be able to post a revised video in the future. I thought yours was a pretty good one in explaining the process. You did an excellent job on that. I wish you all the best and a very productive season!

[happy thoughts]

FYI. Home Depot does sell a dye less, HDPE FDA approved food grade bucket (in lots of 10) online only...plus, free shipping....not cheap, about $65 or so per lot of 10 plus another another 10$ for lids...just received 20 of them plus lids. I'm ramping up for commercial production as I can afford stuff. Got another shipment coming end of month.

Thanks for the info. I see Lowe's is also selling them this year but doesn't carry lids. Not too smart, lol. The Home Depot price sounds reasonable especially with free shipping. My guess is you'll see more food grade buckets like this on the market because of all the doomsday preppers. They apparently use them for storage and are also drying up the market for the freebie recycled ones as I've just discovered. Apparently walmart no longer gives them away but has found a secondary market for their used ones.

[325abn]

Maybe I am clueless living up here in the woods But I just don't hear any "questioning" of the maple that is being produced anywhere. I mean I don't hear any chatter like "dont use that pure maple syrup cause its produced with sap collected in gal buckets and/or pumped though a pipe that is not food grade" etc etc etc. If using a tank that is marked with "corrosive" will creat a negitive perseption why is the soda industry not suffering that problem seeing how that is what the tank was orginaly used for? I just have a hard time submitting to what I consider PC BS but I guess I will have too.

[DonMcJr]

[QUOTE=DonMcJr;202440]You know some people might think if you can clean it out it's good to use... I saw a youtube video with a storage bin that has the white and black diamond for corrosives... I was gonna send him a message but now I can't find the video again.

I wouldn't trust any container unless it's rated Food Grade. Period.

I founf the video and commented on it in a nice way...tell me if I am wrong but at 32 seconds he says he has 2 food grade storage tanks and to me it's clealry this Placard...
http://www.mysafetysign.com/companies/safetyxpress/department/Corrosive-Safety-Placards.png



I feel that I need to clarify my youtube video in regards to the food grade tanks that I use for storage. The one tank does have a corrosive sign on it, it originally had phosphoric acid in it from a soft drink manufacturer. Many people are shocked when they realize the soft drinks that we drink have acids in them. Next time you are enjoying one of your favorite carbonated soft drinks, take a look at the ingredient list and you will probably see phosphoric acid. When I bought the tank I had considered taking the labels off but didn't, because I did not see the need to hide what was originally in the tank, seeing it was food grade. A local tank supplier has been selling these tanks to maple syrup producers for years. I do agree that we need to be careful with how the public sees the maple syrup community, so I have decided to remove my youtube video in case someone finds my tank offensive. I do not want to show a dim view of maple syrup producers. Unfortunately, I got dragged into this discussion on the ills of using non-food grade materials, when in fact I am using safe food grade tanks.

G-Unit,

Like I said in my youtube comment, I wasn't trying to cause trouble it's just I work in a factory and I'm also an Emergency 1st Responder and when I see that symbol it tells me get away and keep others away!

Now that you explained it, well, wow! I would have never known phosphoric acid was in soft drinks. I wonder if enough traces are left behind that it would still leech into the sap?

[DonMcJr]

Not that I didn't believe you cause I did, but I had to look it up and I looked on my Mt.Dew bottle and now I know why my teeth get so many cavities... WOW!

Here's what I found...

According to a report published in the March / April edition of General Dentistry, phosphoric acid in soda causes tooth enamel erosion, even with minimal exposure. While some consumers may believe that sugar is the only culprit of soda's adverse effects on dental health, enamel erosion occurs whether the soda is sweetened with sugar or artificial sweeteners.

"Drinking any type of soft drink poses risk to the health of your teeth," said Kenton Ross, a dentist and spokesman for the Academy of General Dentistry.

"My patients are shocked to hear that many of the soft drinks they consume contain nine to 12 teaspoons of sugar, and have an acidity that approaches the level of battery acid," Ross said.

Americans drink more than 50 gallons per capita of carbonated soft drinks each year, according to the Beverage Marketing Corporation, which tracks beverage consumption in nine areas: bottled water, coffee, fruit beverages, milk, tea, beer, wine, spirits and "CSDs" or carbonated soft drinks. Of the nine, carbonated soft drinks make up the largest segment of beverages consumed. The United States has the highest per-capita CSD consumption in the world.

Soft drinks are infused with phosphoric acid to add a tangy flavor. In nature, this type of flavor can be found in ginger or lemon. Inexpensive and widely available, phosphoric acid is also used in fertilizers and detergents, including industrial cleaners. Even "food grade" thermal phosphoric acid is known to sometimes contain arsenic.

"Phosphoric acid is used in shipyards to remove rust from aircraft carriers and transport ships," explained Mike Adams, author of The Five Soft Drink Monsters, a book that teaches consumers how to beat their addiction to sugary sodas. "Consuming highly acidic substances is not only bad for your teeth but also terrible for bone health and can promote a deterioration of the jawbone, pelvis and femur. Essentially, drinking phosphoric acid dissolves away your skeletal system," Adams said.

[happy thoughts]

Maybe I am clueless living up here in the woods But I just don't hear any "questioning" of the maple that is being produced anywhere. I mean I don't hear any chatter like "dont use that pure maple syrup cause its produced with sap collected in gal buckets and/or pumped though a pipe that is not food grade" etc etc etc. If using a tank that is marked with "corrosive" will creat a negitive perseption why is the soda industry not suffering that problem seeing how that is what the tank was orginaly used for? I just have a hard time submitting to what I consider PC BS but I guess I will have too.

When was the last time you were invited inside a soda factory for a tour? And by looking at that sticker alone can you tell what was in that tank?

If you saw unknown "corrosive" materials being dumped into soda and bottled, I bet you'd have second thoughts about the product without some further explanation from the manufacturer.

[CBOYER]

Hazmat sign are for information for intervention only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAZMAT_Class_8_Corrosive_Substances

This class 8 apply for Phosphoric acid (colas), acetic acid (vinegar), citric acid (sodas, citrus ), that all are additive for everyday food.

On containers in a plant, facility, there are also NFPA704 signs, and CAS numbers to identify products

[MN Jake]

I used craigslist a few days back for food grade barrels and the search showed them everywhere. I will be picking up a few blue plastic ones for sap storage and would like to get a couple steel barrels for the hot syrup. Seems that all steel food grade are epoxied or painted on the inside. Is this safe for hot syrup or should they be raw steel?

[DonMcJr]

Hazmat sign are for information for intervention only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAZMAT_Class_8_Corrosive_Substances

This class 8 apply for Phosphoric acid (colas), acetic acid (vinegar), citric acid (sodas, citrus ), that all are additive for everyday food.

On containers in a plant, facility, there are also NFPA704 signs, and CAS numbers to identify products

Just so everyone knows, that same Placard is used for other Acids, like Sulfuric Acid (Battery Acid) and it is also in the Hazzard Class 8.

So just because Phosphoric Acid is used in Soda doesn't mean that's all that Placard is used for.

http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/unna/1830

That Corrosive Class 8 Placard is used for all of these... Sure there is usually more info on a container but seeing that placard would tell me it's not safe as a "Food Grade Container.

Class 8 – Corrosive Materials (49 CFR 173.136)

Corrosive materials are liquids or solids that cause full thickness destruction of human skin at the site of contact within a specified period of time; or a liquid that has a severe corrosion rate on steel or aluminum based on criteria in §173.137(c)(2). A liquid is considered to have a severe corrosion rate if it corrodes steel (SAE 1020) or aluminum (non-clad 7075-T6) faster than 6.25 mm (0.246 in.) a year at a temperature of 55º C (131º F).

Corrosive materials may be acid or alkaline, organic or inorganic. The following list contains some examples of corrosives, but is not all inclusive:
•Acetic acid
•Sulfuric acid
•Nitric acid
•Hydrochloric acid
•Perchloric acid (< 50%)
•Hydrofluoric acid
•Ferric chloride
•Formaldehyde
•Gallium
•Hypochlorite solutions
•Chromic acid
•Maleic anhydride
•Mercury
•Soda lime
•Sodium hydroxide (lye)
•Ammonium hydroxide
•Ethanolamine
•Potassium hydroxide
•Mercury

Again I am NOT trying to make anyone look bad I am just trying to inform everyone that it's very important to know that your containers are really Food Grade so we don't harm ouselves, our Family and/or our customers.

[CBOYER]

Good reply, Don. one placard is not enough to know all, thats what i try to said. you need the name of the product, the msds, the cas number....

[325abn]

**** the years sure do seem to fly by! .....................:)

[handtapper]

What's the consensus on 55gallon food grade drums that had soaps in them? They rinsed out spotless, much cleaner than the 55gallon food grade drums that had cooking oil in them

[jmayerl]

I used craigslist a few days back for food grade barrels and the search showed them everywhere. I will be picking up a few blue plastic ones for sap storage and would like to get a couple steel barrels for the hot syrup. Seems that all steel food grade are epoxied or painted on the inside. Is this safe for hot syrup or should they be raw steel?
Be very carefully with any blue 55 gallon drums. As far as I have ever heard, only the clear ones( in plastic ) are food grade. I heard this from a industrial drum supplier in Wausau. And yes on the steel ones they are coated with a epoxy liner and are only approved for one way or single use. They can be bought for about $35 remanufactured or $50 new.

[Drew Pond Maple]

:
Be very carefully with any blue 55 gallon drums. As far as I have ever heard, only the clear ones( in plastic ) are food grade.I second that statement. All the blue drums I've seen have said on the top " not for reuse, food or drink". The white drums that I have bought have had labels that said lemon or root beer concentrate, from Pepsico, which I Assume is Pepsi Co.
But we should never assume, cuz it makes an @ss out of you and me

[Drew Pond Maple]

Also I'm fairly new to the maple scene, so really trying to keep everything as close to food grade as possible. Even all fittings and pipe, like only ones that read NSF-pw. Can't teach an old dog new tricks, but teach a new dog new tricks.

I ain't going to screw around with non food grade even if I sell to a handful of customers.
Piece of mind

[happy thoughts]

What's the consensus on 55gallon food grade drums that had soaps in them? They rinsed out spotless, much cleaner than the 55gallon food grade drums that had cooking oil in them

Unless the soap was edible, the drums are no longer food grade. I would not use them just as I would not use a clean laundry detergent bottle to collect sap in or store syrup.

[Sam Caruth]

Now whats the deal with new plastic trash cans? I see a lot of people using them, and just wondering about them.

[gmcooper]

Plastic trash cans are great for trash. Not made for food or sap. Many are made from recycled plastic and are not designed to be used for any food product. Rubbermaid does make a food grade line of containers that includes a trash barrel looking container.
Just went to a mead making workshop last night and the presenter mentioned numerous times to be sure to use food grade container for fermentation. The one common issue his shop hears about for ruined batches is using "Home Depot" buckets for first fermentation container. They are not food grade and leach contaminants into the liquid which in turn makes it not safe to consume let alone the flavors are nasty.

On the new trash barrels try separating 2 new ones in the store and take a good whiff inside the bottom one. How good would the syrup taste from sap stored in that?

[WESTMAPLES]

im guilty, ive used and sold - 4 blue plastic barrels that where marked with a fork/knife fda approved markings on top I bought the barrels BRAND new from a local food additive packer . I don`t use the barrels anymore as I out grew them in one season, and the new owner planned on using them for rain water only. its been a journey learning what is acceptable and not. ( I had a good idea before what was ok and not, this deepens my understanding ) now I stay with white virgin FG plastics or stainless steel and ive also helped educate a few people in my area that didn`t know the difference with the containers. I plan on making syrup for the rest of my life time, and I will continue to make a great image for the maple industry. know we just need to spread to word to others that won`t ever read this post .

[lpakiz]

go cooper,
Not trying to be negative on the sniff test, but did you ever smell the inside of a new roll of maple tubing? Very unappetizing.
And also for the soap barrel, no one would think of using a dish washing detergent bottle for sap, but someplace along the line, that soap came in contact with your plates and silverware. Where does the pedigree for these containers start and stop?
Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating for a minute that these containers are suitable. However, one of my IBC totes was from pipeline CIP detergent. My thinking then was, if this compound is OK to be run thru a milk line and rinsed out, why can't the tote be rinsed as well?

[SeanD]

I agree with everything said. The part I will add, though is that not all blue barrels are bad. I use three that had crushed tomatoes in them and when I just bought a few more white ones last week, they also had some blue ones that contained cooking oil or something like that. I just went with the white b/c they'll stay cooler in the sun.

Sean

[happy thoughts]

go cooper,
Not trying to be negative on the sniff test, but did you ever smell the inside of a new roll of maple tubing? Very unappetizing.
And also for the soap barrel, no one would think of using a dish washing detergent bottle for sap, but someplace along the line, that soap came in contact with your plates and silverware. Where does the pedigree for these containers start and stop?

The brief contact non porous plates and silverware have with a very dilute solution of soap during washing is a lot different than prolonged contact with the concentrated soap in a porous container. (Most plastics are porous to some degree). You are also not concentrating residual chemicals 30-50 X or more as happens with sap --> syrup.

Where to draw the line? IMHO if I'd feel safe drinking or eating whatever was in a container straight from the container then it's probably good enough to go for syrup. Or use the baby formula test. Would you feel safe mixing baby formula in there to serve to your child?

[WESTMAPLES]

yeah I think we have all used something that is non-fg whether it was one bucket or black plastic mainline that's been in the sun for 6 years ( and have you ever smelled the inside of a black plastic ml after its been in the sun, it makes a new trash can smell like roses ) but theres always room to better our operations in terms of having good info on whats right and wrong to use

[Galena]

FWIW I was recently in a sap tsunami and all my 15l water containers were full, as were at least 2 white FG 5-g pails (got them from a restaurant where I used to work). But desperately needed a big storage container, so keeping in mind that I had no problems at all with sap collected and stored in a friend's much larger non-FG garbage bin - made some very nice syrup actually - bought a 77-l plastic garbage can on the way home from work, and dumped in the sap from all those water containers and FG pails, as I needed them to continue collecting sap.

And since then have made syrup and from the *garbage-bin batches* and they're perfectly fine. Also kept it in what snow was left, north side of house, and underneath a tarp with the silver side out to help deflect any heat from sun. Since then have given it a good cleaning, dried it and have it stored safely away with all the other sap containers. So, until I get several more 5g FG containers, or more water containers, have no problem using a small garbage bin. And if it does eff up a batch on me? Then I can use it for its original purpose :-)

[mudr]

Interesting conversation. I just picked up 5 55 gal blue barrels off craigslist. Know past, single content. They contained either citrus or cherry juice conce grate in them for human consumption. I feel safe with them, am I crossing the line as a hobby producer?

[Kilroy]

55 gallon barrel condom -
http://www.amazon.com/Husky-Drum-Liners-Gal-Clear/dp/B003BI2D9E/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1429150642&sr=8-2&keywords=Barrel+liner

[BreezyHill]

I would strongly suggest Kilroy's suggestion on barrels. The amount of allergy sufferers out there are increasing at a huge rate. You don't want anybody coming back to you with an allergy issue. All the food items that come in these barrels are causing issues in people; and all it takes is one person on multi media saying that your product caused a reaction and it will hurt not only your business but all of us. So protect yourself and the rest of us and if you are using barrels and selling product sue the liners...they are cheap insurance for all of our futures.

Don't get caught in a color issue either. There are a lot of white containers that are branded Food Grade but have had non food grade products in them. If it isn't brand new and sealed use a liner.

Just today while running a feed truck I say over a dozen improperly used containers and one even had garbage next to it; don't know if somebody thought it was a white garbage can or what.

Keep educating your friends and neighbors to keep the FEDs off our backs as long as possible.

Ben

[Galena]

Interesting conversation. I just picked up 5 55 gal blue barrels off craigslist. Know past, single content. They contained either citrus or cherry juice conce grate in them for human consumption. I feel safe with them, am I crossing the line as a hobby producer?

I would think they count as FG if they contained juice concentrate, mudr. So long as you're a backyard hobbyist, like me, who gives away or in my case, barters syrup for other regional goodies, you should be fine. Mostly it's if you plan to sell syrup that you have to be very, VERY conscientous about how you handle and store your sap and syrup.

ETA: I would like to add that I what I thought was a non-FG garbage bin as a last resort....and it has since transpired that in fact the Rubbermaid Roughneck is food grade, though I didn't need to use it this year. *sigh*...

[buck3m]

I am all on board for food grade materials. There are food grade blue plastic drums, however.

http://www.lexingtoncontainercompany.com/New-Drums.html
http://www.amazon.com/Reliance%C2%AE-55-gallon-Storage-Includes-Aquamira/dp/B0091G005E