Number of Taps per Tree Discussion.

[DonMcJr]

I am pondering this and couldn't find much on a search of the site and I think discussion on this will be good for the folks new to sugaring and some of us "greenhorns" that just got into it the last few years.

Traditional Tapping Guidelines were:

10-15 Inch Diameter - 1 Tap
15-20 Inch Diameter - 2 Taps
20 - 25 Inch Diameter - 3 Taps
25+ Inches Diameter - 4 Taps

More Conservative Tappig guidelines are:

12-18 Inch Diameter- 1 Tap
18+ Diameter - 2 Taps

That info is from the "Maple Syrup Producers Manual"

When I started last year I had an older book and followed the 3 taps for 20+ Trees.

The two trees I tapped last year with 3 taps each both had full buckets everytime I went to empty them. These trees are easy 25 + Diameter.

They were really healthy this summer too.

So If I had only had 2 taps on these trees then I would have gotten the same amount but the buckets would have been filled sooner?

I'm pondering this because I have 3 Trees that are 25+ and I am running tube on gravity 5/16 this year.

If I follow Traditional I will have 15 Taps on 8 trees.

If I follow Conservative I will only have 12 taps on 8 trees.

I just want some discussion on the pro and cons of 3 taps on larger 25 + diameter trees with me being fairly new to Sugaring and only having these 12 trees close enough to the Sugar House to run gravity.

Thanks!

[ennismaple]

Don,

The guidelines are meant to keep sap production high over decades. If you've only tapped for a few years you really won't see the effects of overtapping yet. 20 years from now when there's no "good" wood to be found around the diameter of the tree you'll be wishing you'd been more conservative. Take it from someone who wishes his father and grandfather hadn't overtapped many big trees for a short term gain - long term it's not worth it!

[DonMcJr]

well in 20 years I'll be 60 and plan on living until I'm 100 so I better follow the "Conservative Guidelines". :cool:

[happy thoughts]

well in 20 years I'll be 60 and plan on living until I'm 100 so I better follow the "Conservative Guidelines". :cool:

LOL. Geez Don, Knowing your work ethic and love of sugaring, I'm surprised you haven't planted a new maple grove, yet :lol:

It's been really fun following your posts. Your enthusiasm is always infectious. Can't wait to see what you turn out this year. Have a good one!

[philkasza]

well in 20 years I'll be 60 and plan on living until I'm 100 so I better follow the "Conservative Guidelines". :cool:This may be a good aim but the Bible says a mans life is 60 yrs and if by reason of strength 70. It also says that no one knows when God will call them to spend eternity in heaven or hell. The Bible also talks of being good stewards of what God has given us, so I like that you are thinking of stewardship but would also like for each person to remember that their life is in the hands of God! AMEN??!!! Enjoy the blessings of this season!

Samuel

[shane hickey]

Its says on this site please no religion and politics
To many people offended.

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

Don. If you get theMAPLE NEWS there is a good reference in there from Branon sugar bush . Cut a length of trimmer line 36inches long its wrapped around the tree.1 tap 60 inches maybe 2 taps. A good practice to follow if your going to live to 100.

[DonMcJr]

How do I get the Maple News? I must have missed something there cause if I knew I could get a Newspaper about Maple Sugaring I'd have done it by now...

I actually have looked into planting some Sugar Maples but I know they probally won't reach tapping size in my lifetime but still gonna plant some for the next guy!

[DonMcJr]

Its says on this site please no religion and politics
To many people offended.

Yes Shane I agree... It didn't offend me but it isn't the kind of thing I wanna hear on a Maple Site... If I wanted to hear that I would be on "ReligionTrader.com" ...

[wiam]

I do not put 2 taps in unless I can not touch fingertips when reaching around the tree

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

Don you can subscribe THE MAPLE NEWS .com I think a 2 year subscription cost is 36.00
Lots of info in it , even has a classified section with everything you want and need.

[DonMcJr]

Thanks Sweet Creations

[johnallin]

I do not put 2 taps in unless I can not touch fingertips when reaching around the tree
Holy smokes, you must have hands like a basketball player.

[bowtie]

reading this i reminded of the "discussion" last year on this. unless you are going crazy with 3-4 or more taps you will never run out of tappable wood. as the tree grows it increases the amount of tappable area. if trees did not produce sap and "draw" it up they would die. so if a tree is alive it can produce, you may have to go up or down to get sap but it will flow. dr perkins replied to this last year, that if tapped in a normal or conservative fashion no more than 2 taps on 24-25 in trees that the next generation of maplers should be able to tap those same trees. i have a large yard sugar that i have placed 3 taps in before, i now put only 2 in it, but doubt that it really matters much. i am only 5'7" but have close to a 6' wingspan, just measured actually 70 1/2", and can't even come close to getting my arms around it. if they are your trees it is really up to you what you do but being conservative is a good way to practice.
don, if you do not have the maple producers guide of north america, i think that is what it called anyway, look up adk1 it is listed in his info, it is very informative.

[bowtie]

i actually just did the calc's on an 18" tree, assuming it does not grow, you can tap for at least 20 years going straight around, going 2.5" from previous tap hole. i believe it is recomended that you go at least 2" to the right or left and up or down 5-6" from previous tap. i think most producers go in a spiral motion around the tree when tapping in subsequent years.

[Tweegs]

Like wiam, I used the tree hugger method this year, too.

Hug the tree, if your fingers touch on the back side, 1 tap, if they don’t, 2 taps.

None of my trees have more than 2 taps.

[SDdave]

Like wiam, I used the tree hugger method this year, too.

Hug the tree...

On a light hearted side, what if they hug back? :o

SDdave

PS that's how I measure also.

[Tweegs]

Well, I guess it’s OK, as long as they don’t have Russian hands or Roman fingers. :lol:

[maple flats]

I also have 1 tap unless I can't reach around it. Then 2 is my max, I no longer have any with over 2 taps. I even have a very large tree with only 1 because it is on the edge of a bank and I can only reach about 3' of the circumferance.

[ennismaple]

I go with the tree hugging method too but I have a wingspan well over 6ft so the tree needs to be 23" diameter before my hands don't touch! It is a good rule of thumb and avoids needed to bring a tapemeasure or calipers with you. Generally, if we're not sure to have 1 or 2 taps we go with one. You can always add another later. We've removed over 400 extra taps from our woods over the last 3 or 4 seasons on trees that were over tapped. That's a significant cost for tees, drop lines, spiles, labour etc... that we shouldn't have incurred.

[vermontpure]

Whats the smallest size tree you would tap? I was told 7-8in was the smallest. I have a ton of trees this size but tap nothing smaller that 12in.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I also hug the tree to determine 1 or 2 taps. I have about a 76" span and that works for me. I also took out nearly 500 taps on 1000 trees from the former generations and I can tell you first hand that it does get harder to find good wood. I had one tree with 5 taps on it until two years ago, now it has 2.

I was also wondering about what is too small like the last post asked. I mean I know the amount per tap will be reduced in smaller trees (obviously). But does it make sense to tap the Small tree if you have lines going by anyway? By small I mean 6-10" range ABH.

Will you shorten the tapping life of a small tree even if you are conservative with drilling? For example only 1.5 inch deep.

[bowtie]

i have a lot of smaller trees, 10-12" range, i tap a few of the 12" just trying to see what they will produce. i would not go any smaller than 10" and would probably stick to 12" or bigger. i figure that in a few years the "small" trees will be big enough to tap. it is funny that the "old-timers" used to put a crazy amount of taps in bigger trees but would rarely tap a tree smaller than 15", i guess the age structure of the forests has changed a lot in the last 75 years.

[JSEDLAK]

What about double or triple trees? They are drwing off of 1 root system but may have 2 or 3 trees of tapable size? Should you only tap 1 each year or put 1 tap in each tree?

[bowtie]

i was wondering the same thing about multiple trunks, i have alot of reds that have between 2-5 trunks and the bases are huge. i usually put 1 on each of the 2 or 3 biggest trunks, as long as they 12-15" diameter. what do most of you guys do?

[JSEDLAK]

I usually put 1 in each trunk too.

[Tweegs]

For me, 10” DBH is one to stick a tap in. I will, however, tap smaller trees if they are ones I need to thin out in an area, or are deformed and won’t make it for long anyway.

On those multi-trunk behemoths, 2 taps, 1 in each of the biggest trunks (not saying there is a good reason for it, it’s just the way I do it). I’ve got one tree out back that the main trunk is 43” in diameter and has 5 other 10~12” trunks around it. Never got a drop out of that main trunk, but the smaller ones produce <shrug>.

[sjdoyon]

Whats the smallest size tree you would tap? I was told 7-8in was the smallest. I have a ton of trees this size but tap nothing smaller that 12in.

The smallest we tap on vacuum is 10 inches. I believe UVM Proctor is doing a study on tapping smaller trees, if so, they will publish their findings.

[mantispid]

I've been tapping anything 8+" in diameter. I'm using 5/16" taps and gambling on the preliminary (incomplete) data that the smaller taps allow for tapping smaller trees. In any case, this is the first year any of the trees on my property have been tapped, so I don't think it will do much harm to the smaller trees unless done repeatedly.

[Marvel26]

I'm about to embarque on my first tubing install in the new year, I was thinking of doing about 40 taps but as I was thinning around the trees I realized I have a lot of massive trees that could probably support way more taps. As a result, I have been searching and reading the forums for guidance and I must admit I am a bit confused when it comes to the # of taps per tree as there appears to be contradictory statements on what a tree can sustain.

There are the "old schoolers" who follow the traditional guidelines:
Diameter
12-20 inches 1 tap
21-27 inches 2 taps
>27 inches 3 taps

and the "new schoolers"
Diameter
12-18" 1 tap
>18" 2 taps

My confusion lies in the reduction in taps regardless of tree size. For example: I have what I have fondly dubbed the clump-o-tree which has 6 trunks, each trunk is over 20" in diameter. This is ONE TREE therefore the new guide says 2 taps.....old, 3. If my assumption is correct in that the root mass is proportional to total trunk/canopy size, then if this tree was divided into 6 individual trees each could have 2 taps (new guide). If the root mass of an individual tree trunk of equal size can sustain 2 taps; why wouldn't the clump-o-tree handle one or two taps per trunk?

I know I'm going to get a few replies suggesting "overtapping" and "go ahead if you don't want to have syrup in the future" but trees grow to the maximum size they can attain based on their environment and I just can't fathom why there would be a difference between the clump-o-tree and 6 individual trees.

Thanks for reading to the end

Rob

[psparr]

I'm about to embarque on my first tubing install in the new year, I was thinking of doing about 40 taps but as I was thinning around the trees I realized I have a lot of massive trees that could probably support way more taps. As a result, I have been searching and reading the forums for guidance and I must admit I am a bit confused when it comes to the # of taps per tree as there appears to be contradictory statements on what a tree can sustain.

There are the "old schoolers" who follow the traditional guidelines:
Diameter
12-20 inches 1 tap
21-27 inches 2 taps
>27 inches 3 taps

and the "new schoolers"
Diameter
12-18" 1 tap
>18" 2 taps

My confusion lies in the reduction in taps regardless of tree size. For example: I have what I have fondly dubbed the clump-o-tree which has 6 trunks, each trunk is over 20" in diameter. This is ONE TREE therefore the new guide says 2 taps.....old, 3. If my assumption is correct in that the root mass is proportional to total trunk/canopy size, then if this tree was divided into 6 individual trees each could have 2 taps (new guide). If the root mass of an individual tree trunk of equal size can sustain 2 taps; why wouldn't the clump-o-tree handle one or two taps per trunk?

I know I'm going to get a few replies suggesting "overtapping" and "go ahead if you don't want to have syrup in the future" but trees grow to the maximum size they can attain based on their environment and I just can't fathom why there would be a difference between the clump-o-tree and 6 individual trees.

Thanks for reading to the end

Rob

I like her name. And they're your trees. I tap smaller trees and my clump-o-trees get a tap in each.

[unc23win]

[QUOTE="go ahead if you don't want to have syrup in the future" Rob[/QUOTE]

Not the case. What happens is that if you you increase the number of tap holes over time you will run out of good wood to tap that is within reach. The tree will heal the hole and when it does that spot can't be tapped again to produce sap. It will be dark wood as opposed to a new hole that will be light wood. Both guidelines you listed are used. I personally will put in 3 taps in a large tree some guys don't. What will help is that you visit http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/ on there on the right side you will find a tapping guidelines link within that you will find a tapping model. The tapping model can be used to see how many years you can tap a tree with what number of taps you input and still have good wood to tap. The percentage changes based on number of taps and length of drop lines.

As for your larger tree with six most people would put one tap in each trunk.

[Marvel26]

Thanks psparr

[Marvel26]

That's a great model! it seems to use the new guide and it does have a few data limitations on input but good just the same. The webpage itself has a pile of info that I'll be picking through from time to time as well. Thanks Jared

[DrTimPerkins]

That's a great model! it seems to use the new guide and it does have a few data limitations on input but good just the same. The webpage itself has a pile of info that I'll be picking through from time to time as well. Thanks Jared

Please note that the current version of the model uses growth rates measured from trees (of various sizes) throughout Vermont that have been tapped with high yield practices. If your growth rates are lower for some reason (stress, drought, insects, low soil fertility, heavy competition, poor site, etc.), some adjustment might be required. If they are higher, you just have a bigger margin of safety in your estimates.

Rob .....It would not be terribly surprising to find that growth rates (at least in some parts of) New Brunswick are lower than the model uses due to climate and thin soils. If that is the case, the model could be underestimate the amount of wounding for your area, and not reliably predict sustainability.

The key thing is to observe your taphole shavings during tapping. If you see a lot of brown wood, you might want to adjust your practices (fewer and shallower tapholes, longer droplines, etc.) to reduce the amount of wounding.

[unc23win]

Your welcome Rob as Dr. Perkins said you might need to make adjustments, but it is a good starting point. For instance when I first saw the model I immediately started making my drops longer.

[Marvel26]

Forgive my ignorance, would you mind clarifying why the drops should be longer in that case? Is it that you are raising the taps higher on the tree?

[unc23win]

Longer drops gives you more ability to reach around the tree easier to avoid old tap holes. Yes you would also be able to go higher. You'll notice in the model the percentage changes when you lengthen the drop. Standard drop length use to be about 30" now a lot of people are using 36"-40" or longer.

[DrTimPerkins]

Longer drops gives you more ability to reach around the tree easier to avoid old tap holes. Yes you would also be able to go higher. You'll notice in the model the percentage changes when you lengthen the drop. Standard drop length use to be about 30" now a lot of people are using 36"-40" or longer.

Strangely enough, if you play around with the model for a while, you'll see that long droplines are important even on smaller-sized trees in order to expand the tapping band area. Many people think small trees = short drops. That just confines your taps to a small area on a small tree, and results in too much wounding and compartmentalization in one area.

We are working on several different aspects of the "sustainability" of tapping. We've answered many of the questions we had, and are now working on one of the "big" ones, which is....does long-term tapping affect the growth of maple trees. We also just received funding from the North American Maple Syrup Council (your penny per container donation) to examine the possibility of tapping below the lateral (obviously with vacuum)....in particular, is there any penalty in sap yield from doing this. If it is possible, then we can essentially double the tapping band on a tree with the same size dropline, and thus cut the probability of tapping into discolored wood in half. We will be testing it with both 5/16" and 3/16" tubing (natural vacuum) and with and without CV spouts. Results to come in April-May 2015.

[Schiefe4]

We also just received funding from the North American Maple Syrup Council (your penny per container donation) to examine the possibility of tapping below the lateral (obviously with vacuum)....in particular, is there any penalty in sap yield from doing this. If it is possible, then we can essentially double the tapping band on a tree with the same size dropline, and thus cut the probability of tapping into discolored wood in half. We will be testing it with both 5/16" and 3/16" tubing (natural vacuum) and with and without CV spouts. Results to come in April-May 2015.

That would be cool for our flat land. Maybe free up a couple more inches of drop in the laterals/mainline.

[handtapper]

Seeing the taps are getting smaller and smaller shouldn't the conservative number of tap per trees possibly increase? I do agree about the deadwood being the problem of over tapping over time. If you trees that were going to be removed that summer what would be the maximum number of taps the tree could sustain before it became pointless to drill more holes?

[DrTimPerkins]

Seeing the taps are getting smaller and smaller shouldn't the conservative number of tap per trees possibly increase?

They are not getting smaller and smaller. They went from 7/16" to 5/16" about 15 yrs ago, but some people are still using the 7/16" spouts.

Yes, there could be different numbers of taps based upon the spout size, but to keep it simple, guidelines for number of taps stayed about the same. However, the minimum size of tapping (1 spout) and the diameter to put in a second spout have changed over time, which basically has the same result.


If you trees that were going to be removed that summer what would be the maximum number of taps the tree could sustain before it became pointless to drill more holes?

If you are taking the tree out, there is no need to be concerned with the "sustainability" factor....at least for that particular tree. However you don't double the amount of sap you get from a tree with each added tap, especially if you are using vacuum. Think of the tree like a bucket. Doesn't matter much if you have one hole in it or 10, the bucket will leak to the point where it is empty. The RATE at which it empties will vary though, which can be important in the early part of the season when sap runs are typically short. So sure....put a few holes in those trees you're planning to cut for a year or two. But you aren't going to get 10 times the sap by putting 10 tapholes in it.

[wishlist]

Dr Tim, how many taps would you recommend in this 10000 year old tree ? LOL
https://lansing.craigslist.org/wan/4802566956.html

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Tim, how many taps would you recommend in this 10000 year old tree ? LOL
https://lansing.craigslist.org/wan/4802566956.html

Diameter must be about 150 ft or more, so probably around 87 taps. :D