Propatgating Sugar Maples- Advise please

[Limitpusher]

I was wondering how many of you have planted seeds and raised maples? I'm thinking of getting a bunch of 2 footers to raise, might get to see them with 1 tap in them, but its really for the next generation. Any tips, and advise about this? Thanks, Limitpusher

[bowtie]

i thought about starting some from "seeds" but that is a tough deal, so i looked into bareroot saplings. i found a place on craigslist that sells maples,oaks, and many others for a good price and cheap shipping, as in most things the more you buy the "cheaper" it is. i was a little worried that the nursery was from the south but when the saplings arrived i was very pleased with them and the root systems on them. obviously i do not have a long term prognosis on them as i just planted them last year but with the drought we had alot of them survived and will hopefully make it through the winter with all the deer browsing. i have also purchased from musser's nursery out of pa, good plants but shipping is 20% of your order. i planted about 300 oaks and maples last year and will do the same this year, along with about 30 fruit trees, all i can say is buy the "biggest" ie oldest trees you can afford and purchase tree tubes to protect them. i never got around to that step and will probably pay the price for it even though i have over 2 acres of food plots right there for the deer to eat. it only takes one time for a deer to browse your sapling to kill it or set it back a year or two. sunday night i went out back to try to call in a couple of foxes that my saw and was worried they might get my free range chickens or pheasents, no foxes but 20-21 deer. deer are crazy they will browse an apple tree when there is brassica,clover or corn right next to it.
at 40 i will likely not get to tap any of these trees but you have to put back if you wish to take!!

[bowtie]

just found the site, not sure if he actually has maples i thought he did but you can call them,anyway his oaks where real nice. sunbright farms .com phone # 706-352-6568, like i said mussers has good deals on 3 yr sugar maples also.

[happy thoughts]

I give you a lot of credit. It's nice to see someone with patience and an eye to the future. :)

If you're going to go to all that trouble, I'd look for trees specifically bred for sweetness. Cornell for one was working on developing sweet strains and I believe seedlings were once sold through that program. You might want to contact them to see if any are still available.

http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/Ext/history_tree_imp.htm

There may be other sources of similar sweet trees. Others may be able to steer you toward their direction.

Have a great season!

[unc23win]

I actuallly have been thinking about doing some planting as well obvioulsy for the next generation. I have heard of a place near Wellsville NY that they planted maples maybe 100 years ago or more and they are all arranged in rows like a wagon wheel and now the sugar house is in the middle. I guess it is a pretty cool set up.

[heus]

I too applaud Limitpusher for wanting to give back to the next generations. In today's "I want it now" society, it is nice to see that someone is planting sugar maples that wont benefit them, but future generations. I am glad that our ancestors had the forethought to plant sugar maples along roadsides, in yards, parks, etc. I have been guilty of looking to plant fast growing varieties of trees in my yard(s) over the years. With that being said, if you want to be able to tap these trees look into the sweet silver maples that are being sold somewhere in the northeast (I forget the nursery).:cool: I think they are tappable in as little as 10 years.

[philkasza]

I too applaud Limitpusher for wanting to give back to the next generations. In today's "I want it now" society, it is nice to see that someone is planting sugar maples that wont benefit them, but future generations. I am glad that our ancestors had the forethought to plant sugar maples along roadsides, in yards, parks, etc. I have been guilty of looking to plant fast growing varieties of trees in my yard(s) over the years. With that being said, if you want to be able to tap these trees look into the sweet silver maples that are being sold somewhere in the northeast (I forget the nursery).:cool: I think they are tappable in as little as 10 years. From St. Lawrence Nursery(I think in northern NY) is where those sweet silver maples are which are cloned so they are exactly like their parent with 3-5% sugar content and tappable in 7-10 yr. or Forest Keeling Nursery in MO which takes seeds from Cornell (Sugar Maple)(also 3-5% sugar) and focuses on the root system which are also tappable in less than 10 yrs. Both of those trees are around $10-15/tree depending on size and quantity. Way more expensive than regular maples but if you are after the sap to sell syrup then I believe you will have the trees payed for in the first sugar season. Plant something though!!!!

Samuel

[Limitpusher]

Well first off, thank you for the complements. And I'm a bit younger then the perceived average age of members here :lol: Anyways, I was always told silvers were crap maples intended to fire the woodstove, so are they or what? I've got a line on some bare root sugars that are two years old, cheap- like $3 each. But, I am curious about the sweet strains, what are they exactly? Thank you for the help, I've only ever planted 6-7 trees in my life, raise a very large garden for market every year though so I at least think I can do this! Also, how many should I plant?

[happy thoughts]

Well first off, thank you for the complements. And I'm a bit younger then the perceived average age of members here :lol: Anyways, I was always told silvers were crap maples intended to fire the woodstove, so are they or what? I've got a line on some bare root sugars that are two years old, cheap- like $3 each. But, I am curious about the sweet strains, what are they exactly? Thank you for the help, I've only ever planted 6-7 trees in my life, raise a very large garden for market every year though so I at least think I can do this! Also, how many should I plant?

Sweet strains are ones that are specifically being bred and cloned for their high sugar content. As far as I know this is a fairly recent area of research and development. Since it takes a long time to grow a tree to tapping size, variables between nature vs nurture are still being investigated. If you look at the link I left in my above post you can read about what Cornell is doing with their program and will help explain it a lot better than I could.

Silvers are definitely tappable as is any species of maple native to the US including box elder. For some on this forum silvers are the only maples available to them and though their sugar content may be lower than sugar maple, the syrup made from them should taste the same. You'll just need to boil down more sap. As far as sugar content, from my past readings if I remember correctly, after sugar maple which is considered the gold standard, the maples with colors in their names are the preferred ones to use- blacks are hard maples like sugar maples and have similar sugar content. Then come the soft maples, reds and silvers.

I should add since I mentioned them, that from what I've learned here, box elder has a different taste that you may or may not want to mix with sap from other trees, but by US and Canadian definition, sap from any species of maple tree can be used to produce syrup that can be legally sold as maple syrup.

As for planting trees, YES! of course you can do it !:) I would definitely consider deer protection as someone else mentioned. My only thought re silvers is the fact that they are not known for their hardiness or long life but if you can find a super sweet strain that grows fast and will get into production fast, you might want to give them a try.

[MN Jake]

Silvers are all I have here in Minnesota. Luckily they have been at 4 1/4% in my first two years of tapping, I did test with a sap hydrometer every day. They may be brittle in storms but they can grow like weeds and get to large sizes rather quickly. Silvers may be an excellent choice for some of you that have flood plains where sugars won't grow. Just my two cents anyway.

[MN Jake]

Also, sometimes the ground is covered with thousands of saplings. I could protect them and let them grow a little then ship them out if anyone needs some trees.

[lastwoodsman]

I have a friend here in the Saint Paul area and all he has tapped for 30 years (400 taps) is Silver maple (acer Saccharinum). His sap runs on average 2.5 to 4%. The syrup quality is excellent.

For those of you looking for tree (maple)seedlings try this link.
Terry
http://www.schumachersnursery.com/nursery-category/deciduous-trees-shrubs/maple-sugar

[DanE.]

You should check with your DEC. In NY you can get 2year old 250 bare roots sugar maples for sixty dollars plus shipping. Yesterday I just place my order for 3 units of trees (non maples). Dane.

[Limitpusher]

You should check with your DEC. In NY you can get 2year old 250 bare roots sugar maples for sixty dollars plus shipping. Yesterday I just place my order for 3 units of trees (non maples). Dane.

My price was though my DEC. Bit more pricey here in good ole Michigan.

Curious, how many people on here re-plant maples? Also, I read somewhere, that red and silver maples grow well in wet soil. Is this true? I have some ground that is moist all year, and if we get more than 2 in. of rain, or a sudden warm up/ fast snow melt the creek floods the area, but it typically subsides in a couple of days at the most, less it gets real cold again quick and stays cold. Advice?

[happy thoughts]

I can't tell you about silver maple but I've seen red maple grow just about anywhere. Another common name for them is swamp maple because they grow in wet areas.

I've transplanted a few red and sugar maples for ornamental purposes maybe 10 years ago. Their site is not ideal but they're doing OK on thin dry soil with average care. They're nowhere near tapping size but that's not why I planted them. Treat them the same as any other tree or shrub you plant and keep them watered well the first year or two until established.

[MN Jake]

My price was though my DEC. Bit more pricey here in good ole Michigan.

Curious, how many people on here re-plant maples? Also, I read somewhere, that red and silver maples grow well in wet soil. Is this true? I have some ground that is moist all year, and if we get more than 2 in. of rain, or a sudden warm up/ fast snow melt the creek floods the area, but it typically subsides in a couple of days at the most, less it gets real cold again quick and stays cold. Advice?


Here it seems the silvers will only naturally grow if it floods once in a while. Two years ago I was gathering sap in 2 feet of water and they were running great, 5 gallons a day on a couple of them. There was no spring flood last year, although summer rains raised the river to spring melt levels. Almost up to the oaks feet, which wont tolerate getting wet. Kinda wish they flooded too as they are horribly messy (shed half the leaves in the fall and other half in spring) and are prone to die of oak wilt anyway.

[heus]

Yeah silvers and reds love wet soil. Sugars will grow well for the first ten years or so in wet soil, but almost always end up dying before they reach maturity.

[Jmsmithy]

I've gotten/planted close to 100 sugars from our DEC in NY. Plant bunch every year. I tube them when I can afford it! This year I'm planning on doing some fertilizing as well....organic of course...:lol:

[Ed R]

I have had pretty good luck transplanting sugars. Ive had the best luck doing it in the late fall after deer season and before freeze up. You have to protect and water them. Also dont use woods trees. Mine come up in my raspberries out in the open. I dig them and transplant before they get too big.

[heus]

Another type of maple that grows like a weed are Box Elders. However I think they are considered an invasive species in some areas.

[Limitpusher]

Ok, I'm starting to think I should see if I cant get ahold of some of those fast growing silvers aswell to plant down in that swampy/ marshy ground. Maybe some reds too???? Two questions-
1st- How do I protect these things? They are going to be secluded, but I'm nervous the deer are going to eat'em all up. And I really don't want to spend more on protecting them, preferably this will only cost me $2 a tree, including the tree at $1.58
2nd- JMSmithy brought up fertilizer, Do I or should I fertilize? Or just ajust the ph to preferred levels- witch are?????
Limitpusher

[Limitpusher]

Another type of maple that grows like a weed are Box Elders. However I think they are considered an invasive species in some areas.

They are considered invasive here, the local dec don't like'em. don't know why though

[MN Jake]

Ok, I'm starting to think I should see if I cant get ahold of some of those fast growing silvers aswell to plant down in that swampy/ marshy ground. Maybe some reds too???? Two questions-
1st- How do I protect these things? They are going to be secluded, but I'm nervous the deer are going to eat'em all up. And I really don't want to spend more on protecting them, preferably this will only cost me $2 a tree, including the tree at $1.58
2nd- JMSmithy brought up fertilizer, Do I or should I fertilize? Or just ajust the ph to preferred levels- witch are?????
Limitpusher

Silvers like full sun, water and soil on the acidic side.

[maple marc]

I'm always amazed at these reports of high-sugar silver maples. Most of the writing on maple trees indicates that silver maples have less sugar than sugar maples AND they have more sugar sand. That's why sugar maples and black maples are preferred. Silver maples are also generally very weak and messy trees. Never park under a silver!

Marc

[happy thoughts]

I'm always amazed at these reports of high-sugar silver maples. Most of the writing on maple trees indicates that silver maples have less sugar than sugar maples AND they have more sugar sand. That's why sugar maples and black maples are preferred. Silver maples are also generally very weak and messy trees. Never park under a silver!

Marc

I'm not amazed but I do question the source. The net and even various state Ag extensions seem to be filled with questionable info. For instance many sites say Norway maple is untappable because of cloudy sap. yet I know people who tap Norways as do some members here and they produce clear sap and acceptable syrup.

That said, if you look for authoritative research studies on species comparisons they do not seem to exist as far as I know. Dr Tim may know of more specific studies on species other than sugar maple but I haven't been able to find any. All research seems to be based on sugar maples. The only source I have ever seen cited on other species was a 1932 study by McIntyre done at Penn State. There is an interesting study done by UVM from the 50's that followed several sugar maple bushes over several years. Based on their conclusions, you can't just test a tree once and think you're done with it. Many variables like size of tree, where it grows, size of crown, time of season and length of sap run come into play as well as variations from year to tear. I suspect it would be the same for other maple species. This may or may not account for some of the high sugar ratios claimed for some silvers.

study of variations in sugar content in sugar maples is here if interested:

http://vip2.uvm.edu/~uvmaple/sapsugarcontentvariation.pdf