What Would You Do

[Zipdude66]

Longtime lurker first time poster. My question is that if you had say 1,000 sugar maples all on a side hill and all within a 1,000 feet of a 10x20 sugar house how would you go about setting up your sugaring operation? I'm thinking about going with new stuff mainly because I'm a greenhorn and wouldn't know good from bad. I've been in touch with a Leader dealer locally and he has been very helpful without any high pressure sales garbage. Having someone there for support would seem to be very helpful but Leader stuff does seem a bit pricey from what I've researched. My budget is around 20,000. Thanks in advance!

Wood fired evaporator isn't an option for me.

[spencer11]

so are you setting up a new operation? that sounds like the idea setup, basically i would run the tubing right to the bulk tanks at the sugar house to start. if you are starting fresh, 20k is a low budget in my opinion to set up 1,000 taps. maybe start with half that, and then go to the 1k taps next year. then you would need to figure out evaporator size and RO size for the next year

[western mainer]

I would shop around Leader is good but so are the others for less money, CDL, for one.
Brian

[Sunday Rock Maple]

I would make the woods priority #1 to keep your focus and enjoy this time with those that are close to you. Priority #2 would be to make sure that all the tubing is run to the current best-known practice (The Leader guy can fit it to your specifc layout) and don't cut any corners on the tubing and vacuum system. I would do this even if it shot the whole budget with nothing left for the shanty and boiling --- you can sell sap for the first year or two if cash flow is the issue. Priority #3 would be a good RO from a company that will be around to service it in a few years (again you can sell the concentrate if you need to) and then lastly the evaporator and press.

[spencer11]

Like Sunday rock said focus on your woods, that's where the money is made. While selling sap is good, you will need to find probably multiple people who want it and a way to get it to them. I think you should also focus on being able to make syrup the first year, even if you only get half the taps set up, that way you will just have to add taps and an RO the next year. For 500 taps with no RO I would assume you would want around a 3x10, which I thinkmwouldmfit nicely with a smaller RO when your at 1k taps

[Tweegs]

Ooooo…spending other people’s money, I love this game.

I’ll chuck my 2 cents in.

If it were me…
Tubing for sure.
Vacuum for sure
An RO for sure.

The RO will allow for a smaller evaporator, which will save you on gas or oil, but I’d go no smaller than a 2x8 (a 2x6 might be right on the edge and not leave room for future expansion).

Sap storage, something close to 2,000 gallon capacity I would guess (and that’s a wild guess), stainless steel, not poly.
Filtering is next, and for an operation that size, I’d be looking a press as opposed to cone type filtering.

Syrup storage, again, stainless, nothing else.

A hood and preheater will keep you dry and speed things up some.

If everything were purchased new, you’d blow through that 20k fast. Used tanks, filter press, RO and vacuum pump…shop around.

Personally, I’d go with a new evaporator just because of efficiency advancements in later models and potential resale value.

And because I like round numbers, a 1000 tap operation should yield about 500 gallons syrup, sold retail at $60 per, minus overhead and annual expenses, your ROI is about 1 season.

Second season makes improvements.

Third season allows for expansion.

Fourth season, improvements.
Expansion
Improvements
The cycle repeats indefinitely.
The dog leaves you, the wife turns her back, the kids adopt the mailman…it’s vicious. :lol:

[Spanielslovesappin]

No matter what you do size your tubing for the full build out of a modern vac system. even if you only start with 25% of the taps. A 30" x 10' or 30x 8' evap will do all the boiling you ever need and now the trend is to longer skinny evaps as they are more efficient especialy on oil. because your buring oil you will want a steam away and an RO in your future thus size your evap with those two improvements in mind. then you can do 300 taps with a 30x 8 or 10 evap and then add both taps and production as needed. A good dealer shoudl be able to really spell this out for you. 20K is plenty to do it right just not all at once. dont buy anything or do anything that dosent fit into the full 1000 tap build out. at least thats my take on it. being on my third evap i can tell you that it is expensive to swap them out... stack, plumbing and time add up really fast and we all tend to under estimate those hidden costs! I am in the middle of doing the gradual build up to 3000 taps, thus far while not cheap i am not going to have to go back and redo work.

Very exciting situation, good luck!

[sugarman3]

Leader might be a little more,BUT THERE SERVICE IS TRI-FOLD TO ANY OTHER COMPANY AND IT IS MADE IN THE GOOD OLD U.S.A.and go look at other manufactures product and copare them to leader,noticable differences in workmanship and material.I tried the cheap way when i started,ended up costing me more over a period of 3 short years,now everything is LEADER

[Spanielslovesappin]

bascoms has a nice used 2x6 oil evap for $4500 ad ro and steam away and your in great shape with 1000 taps. though a 2X 8 or 10 would make me feel more warm and fuzy

[Zipdude66]

Thanks a bunch for everyone's input and hope they keep coming. I've been beating myself up for a year or so trying figure out the best way to go about it. My plan was to have a good portion ready for this year. But all this going back and forth between new, used, ro, vacuum and the rest it didn't happen.

Where I'm at now is to go with a leader 2x6 oil with patriot flue and revolution syrup pans. Also would go with a 160 gph sprintech ro do to burning oil. This is where I think I might be screwing up but like I said I'm totally new at this. Then I plan to add tubing building it for vacuum but running gravity for the first year. I understand I most likely wouldn't do all that great as far as sap volume but planning on using the first year as a learning dealie. My plan was to do 500 or less taps to start depending my cash situations. Pretty sure this will get me over budget. So don't tell the wife.

[325abn]

I suggest starting off small and make sure its for you before you go buy 20K worth stuff.

[wiam]

If you have somebody local that will buy sap. Set up the woods right with vacuum and sell sap for a couple of years and pour that money into the sugarhouse. Payback on vac should happen in the first year. I boil from 1000 taps on a 2x6 drop tube W F Mason. Average boil is 3-4hrs. This is boiling 7-8%.

[nymapleguy607]

Zip, where are you located in Schyler County? I'm just over the border in Chemung.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I agree with Wiam. Do the tubing and do it right. Hire someone to lay out the mainlines as that is the most important part and then you can run the tibing saving on that end. As far as vacuum, I would go with an Airtech, L21 that will do 15 cfm, or L25 that will do 21 cfm. These are great pumps and less money than you will ever find at leader. Now for an RO, 1000 taps, I would build one. 1700 will build you a 3 post machine. I am currently building one right now. They are not as complicated as they make them out to be. Then you will need tanks. One for sap of 1000 gals. and a few smaller ones for the RO. That will pretty much use up the $20,000. You may be able to find a good used arch to boil on the first year. Now as far as income, you should make 500 gallons first year on this system. But I disagree with the $60 per gallon. I say that production only makes bulk. That is $32.50 ish. And all of the 500 wont be the best stuff...... Now if you choose to retail it that is where the rest of the $$$$ comes from. But to me that is a whole other side of the coin. But, anyway the production side would make $15,000 first year minus fuel and electric. That would give you a good amount to buy or build a decent evaporator for the second year and any other upgrades. Any questions feel free to send me a pm.

[spencer11]

If you could find a small used evaporator, probably a 2x6 for the first year, you could boil the sap from 250 taps and then sell the rest of the sap, so you would make more money the first year and also get your name out there for selling syrup retail. and find local places to sell it to get more money from retail sales for the next year when you doing it on 500, or 1k taps

[red maples]

Here is my 2 cents
first setting up 1000 taps =tubing, Vac, Releaser(s) collection and storage tanks. Evaporator+ enhancements, storage tanks, Head tank Plumbing, Sap pumps, filter press, syrup storage containers. $20K a little tight.
Set up a 3 year plan 500 1st year, 750 2nd year, 1000 3rd year.
1. Start with 500 taps for your first year. and set it up right for the expansion to 1000 taps. (or go the full 750 or 1000 and sell extra sap you can't handle If that is an option)
2. a 2x6 with a steam away will be too small. you will be only at about 50-55ish GPH. on a good run day with 500 taps on vacuum your talking at least 500 gallons of sap and 10 hours of boiling.
3. I would go for a 2.5 x 8 if you can find one used maybe $6k, new $7-8 K? with a steam away $5800 youre looking at 80-90 GPH. So you already cut your boiling time down in 1/2 hopefully. If your trees are really humming you can get 1.5 Gallons per tap. + oil tank, electric, etc. hopefully your handy that will save you money.
4. youre gonna need at least 700 gallons of storage at the sugarhouse. more would be better but you can add more as you grow. Stainless tanks are best but plastic is a little more reasonable and you can sell it later to upgrade.
5. With 500 taps you can still get away with a flat filter over a canner. Shop around if you can find someone to make one for you it will be a little cheaper. but generally will be about $7-900 depending on what you get.
6. Then on to syrup storage on vac you will end up with possibly more but plan on .33 of a gallon of syrup per tap. So thats about 165 gallons of syrup on 500 taps on vac and over well over 300 gallons on 1000 taps. You should look into barrels beer kegs, soda kegs, make sure they are stainless, The epoxy lined cans are a waste of money, and never buy galvanized anything!!! and some blue 5 gallon plastic for smaller amounts.
7. containers if you are selling retail (most money made this way) for plastic consider about $500 total for a case of eachsize.

8. then you have all your legalities ins, etc etc etc.
9. after you get up to 750 taps the second year look into an RO, a Filter press, more storage tanks, and grow from there. there is a VERY good resale value for maple equipment as long as you take good care of it so if you out grow stuff you can sell it for close to what you paid for it.
Hope that helps.
I guess thats about 10 cents now.

[Zipdude66]

Thought about starting small but really don't want to do the upgrade deal. This is a project I’ve always wanted to tackle.

If I could find someone close that is willing to buy the sap? I would certainly give the tubing with vacuum a lot of thought to start. This seems to be the consensus here.

Then again through my other hobby I have built a pretty good following that might be willing to buy the syrup also. I am learning a lot from your comments and they are appreciated.

Jeff my property borders Sugar Hill state forest, not far from Maple Lane. Really no lie.:-)

[wiam]

2. a 2x6 with a steam away will be too small. you will be only at about 50-55ish GPH. on a good run day with 500 taps on vacuum your talking at least 500 gallons of sap and 10 hours of boiling.


2x6 is plenty for 1000 taps. I do it easily with an ro. ro gains me way more than steamaway and my 2x6 gets over 50gph with out a steamaway. On a normal year I make about 425 gallons and do not boil over 4 hrs /day.