New setup question(s) for 07

[royalmaple]

I was thinking about setting up a vacuum for 2007 behind the house. I'll list what I have for conditions etc, I'd appreciate some pointers on "how to" or what to do. Or if it is even feasible / practical.

My land is pretty flat but with areas of pitch, which I currently have gravity tubing set up on. 3/4 main lines and 5/16 latterals, saddle manifolds. I have each mini system going into collection tanks throughout the property. Currently I have 7 pipelines, most have about 30-40 taps on them.

Construction of sugar house summer 2006, beside my barn and home. I have access to power and most of the sugar bush is behind the build site.

I don't see it feasible to get one new mainline from back of property to sugar house with decent pitch. Possible but would need to clear a lane on my property and really get a good look first. So perhaps I would have to accomplish the run in stages and set up sap ladders along the way.

Do the ladders decrease the amount of amount of vacuum in the system?

I would say the difference in lowest point of my land and potential dump site at sugar house is likely 20 feet lower. This lowest point is not necessarily the end of my property, but just on one edge that I have a tubing system currently set up on.

The total length of my property the main line would extend is likely 1500 feet. Then along the way picking up existing mainlines from the gravity systems already set up. I'm guessing these too may need sap ladders to get the sap up to the new straight shot mainline going to the releaser. Is there a maximum rise you can get out of a ladder? Or does this depend on the vacuum pump you have?

One important note is I would say that max taps I could get on my land or this system is 300-350. I could branch out to a neighbors property, but that is not on the plate now.

After seeing russ lamprons set up and hearing all the good stories of additional sap, he's got my wheels turning. :lol:

Also I have no equipment for vacuum and for sake of arguement lets say I know very little about vacuum systems or milking equipment. But I have read a ton, and learning.

I guess this question can be broken down into a few areas: Feasibility, suggested set up, suggested equipment, rough idea on costs?

I was wondering if anyone has tried or successfully created a mechanical releaser or are there any ways to accomplish this outside buying the releasers for 800+? Seems they are the biggest part of the equation when looking into vacuum. I realize that some stuff you just have to buy, if this is the case then I understand.

I am in no hurry to set this up, I got pleanty of time to mull it over. I like the idea of the vacuum doing some "collecting" for me and getting more out of the taps. I do understand I am looking at some work to set up the system and additional costs but trying to consider the benefits as well.

I'd like to do the most planning I can now and really set it up correctly the first time and buy the things I really need and the right stuff the first time as well.

I appreciate the help & suggestions.
let me know if I missed anything.

[brookledge]

Matt
I think you need to determine the difference in height first. You said it is likely 20 feet lower at the end (furthest from your releaser) than the beginning. If your guess of 20 feet turns into 25-30 it will be alot different if it is only 15'. So I would get a more accurate height difference before trying to figure whats best.
You will be able to raise the sap 20 feet or more with multiple systems.
You could get a rough idea by using a sight level. Over 1500' you should get to with in 6" plus or minus.
If you do that calculate the height difference going in both directions that way if you make a mistake or your level is not accurate it will give you two different readings. If you are within 6" of each other then I'd say you are ok.
If you have access to a laser level you could be even more accurate.
Keith

[sweetwoodmaple]

Another thing to remember is you need drop to your main lines in addition to bringing the sap up 20' in elevation. 1/4" drop per food of main line is about 4% slope.

Also, when constructing your sap ladders, remember you need to tap into them from your trees. Specifically, if you have a 10' high sap ladder, you need to arrange your tubing so that it comes in at a reasonable height (usually close to where your ladder has it's lowest point).

With 20' of drop, that will be pushing the limits. Plus, with that distance, you may need some sort of vacuum booster.

If I had my woods to do again, I would put a mechanical releaser and tank at the lowest point. Then, I would use one of those sap lifter gizmo's from the leader or other catalogs to lift the sap 30' and run a separate line back to the sugar house.

Sap ladders are nice, but if you have a bunch of them, it takes rolls and rolls of 5/16 tubing. I.e. a 10' sap ladder for 300 taps requires one set of 6 way star tees for each 75 taps. That translates into about 300' of tubing just for one ladder plus the stars and other fittings.

Does add up in $$, so you could put that money towards a sap lifter and maybe have a better setup depending on the lay of the land.

Brian

[royalmaple]

Thanks guys, I agree I'll have to really get very accurate or as close as I can to the exact levels of the land so the guess work is taken out of some of the equation.

The back of the land is not the lowest point.

I could tie in three current lines and get them all to flow to this low spot, which is about 200 feet from the sugar house building site. Only reason I didn't want to do this on the current gravity system is it would block my 4 wheeler trail which I needed open so I can collect from the back of the land.

This would not be such an issue if I didn't have to go out back to collect if I was using vacuum.

Brian- Thanks for the point on the taps and ladders. I was under the impression that you just set up one ladder at the lowest point you can get on the main and jump it up to the next section to get more pitch, regardless of the taps running into it.

I didn't realize you had to adjust the amount of ladders to the amount of taps feeding the main.

Seems first thing is to thin the woods out, get some accurate measurements, and in the mean time take in some pointers until the actual set up begins.

Keep the pointers coming. :lol:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Matt,

Don't try to do to much in one season. It will run into more money than you can imagine and a lot of time. If you do part of it this year like building the sugarhouse, it will give you more time to study designs and talk to other and give you time to put away some money for the vaccum the following year. :)

[royalmaple]

Just day dreaming now, trying to figure out what I will need and just planning really.

I'm gonna thin out my woods this summer and build the shack for sure.
Regardless what I use for gravity or vacuum this will be worth while.

Also got to figure out what I want to do for plumbing inside the shack for sap transfer , storage and feeding the 2x6. Oh did I mention the upgrade for '07????? :lol: :lol:

[brookledge]

Matt
Here is a link for you to look at. Also if you can contact another producer nearby that has vacuum set up and I bet that would help you get a better understanding before you start on your own.
http://www.ontariomaple.com/index.php?action=display&cat=38&doc=2004_summary_sap_ladder_project-Final_Rep_June_2304.pdf

Keith

[royalmaple]

Keith-

Thanks I'll check out the link. Yes over the summer I hope to visit a few places and get some ideas on how to accomplish the whole set up. Seeing it does help for sure. You can get only so much from typing.

[Russell Lampron]

The question I have about sap ladders is do they require more CFM's of vacuum than the standard 1 CFM per 100 taps? If they do, how much more? I know that it would also depend on what type of ladder, how many ladders and how much lift etc.

Russ

[royalmaple]

Russ-

Remember those trees around your house are you wife's. So better ask here first if she minds not driving down to the releaser on trail and collecting.... :lol: :lol:

I'll help you set up your ladder, then we'll work on mine.

Deal?

[Russell Lampron]

Matt,

I'm not ready to expand more yet. We'll build yours first.

Russ

[royalmaple]

cool, sounds even better. You may have to add another week to your vacation so we'll have enough time. The list is getting longer.

[Parker]

The one suggestion I would offer in building your sugarhouse is gravity to move sap if you can,,site your shack so it is lower than your holding tanks,,I was very lucky and able to have my sugarhouse at the bottom of a hill,,I can dump my truck tanks into buls tanks below that feed my head tank in the sugarhouse,,no pumping,,,GOOD LUCK AND HAVE FUN AT IT