New Tubbing

[PACMAN]

I have got 400 taps on new tubing. I am using check valves with stubby spouts. Anyone ever use them without vacuum ?

[PARKER MAPLE]

My personal opinion, ( my only) is that CVs are not worth the ivestment yet. To me they are still not perfected. I have herd from many people around my area that have used them and they all say one thing or another about how they arnt impressed. I few have said the that check valve ball has even broke loose in spout and pluged up there line at the manifold. Causing that lateral not to work for quite sometime. For that reason alone I wouldnt use them in my woods. Im sure this will start a wave affect with others on this site, but Im just saying what I have run across. I am using the CDL smart spout, I like the graduall angle of the spout and feel getting away from that sharp 90deg angle will help sap flow. They are still clear so you can see in them, and I modified one of my one handed tool to adapt to this spout for easy install on the drop. Time will tell.

Hope you have good luck this season
MR

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Cornell research shows a similar percentage gain in sap production when using check valves on gravity as when used on vacuum. Remember though that a similar percentage gain when starting from a smaller yield is a smaller number. I think that using the check valves the first year on new tubing is probably not cost effective. Personally I would just use a normal 5/16 spout adapter on the stubby this year and save the check valves for future years after your set up is no longer new.

[sugarman3]

I used about 600 last year on natural gravity,tapped feb 5th-pulled taps april 7th after a freeze,sap was still dripping outof the tap holes .worked great,no way would the sap drip with a conventional spouts.I even had 200 taps using the inserts and got no sap after march 13th .Actually been using cv for 3 years n gravity

[The Sweet Spot]

Hey sugarman3
I used about 600 last year on natural gravity,tapped feb 5th-pulled taps april 7th after a freeze,sap was still dripping outof the tap holes .worked great,no way would the sap drip with a conventional spouts.I even had 200 taps using the inserts and got no sap after march 13th .Actually been using cv for 3 years n gravity.
I don't want to steal this thread but could we chat at your convience, in a different thread I just posted. Its in the tubing section, 7/16x7/16 .

[DrTimPerkins]

...few have said the that check valve ball has even broke loose in spout and pluged up there line at the manifold.

Yes I heard this story several times as well. Mostly it was seems like it was being told by salesman from other companies and it started BEFORE the CV adapter even came out. There were even ads by other companies bad-mouthing this product before a single spout was ever sold.I even caught one dealer who had pulled out the rubber ball and substituted a ball bearing so it would not seal properly when he sucked air through it. All is fair in marketing I suppose. The only case I heard of a ball coming out and plugging a line (where I believe it) was a producer who knew he broke some of teeth when he seated the adapter in the tree. He was tapping under vacuum, and knowing he'd broken the teeth, he put the stubby up to the broken adapter anyway, and it sucked the ball out. He tracked it down and cut it out. If you're tapping under gravity, this shouldn't happen. We've put in thousands of them and never had it happen. If you use the new version of the CV, this physically CAN'T happen, although I suppose that doesn't mean that somebody won't say that it has, or will.

[Moser's Maple]

Personally we have had great success using the CV's on both vacuum and gravity lines. There has only been 2 incidents that I recall we had a problem with the CV. The first was the first year they were introduced the teeth seemed to be more fragile, or differnt configuration, or maybe it was just our learning curb, but anyways we seemed to have teeth break if we didn't seat the stubby quite right. This only happened the first year we used them though, since then we may have occasional bad tooth, but if you check them before you put them in the tree you can tell a bad tooth. The second was late in the season on a gravity line we noticed that bacteria in a few taps had made the ball on the CV stick and not roll back and forward like it was supposed to, but this was only a few taps that had did this and was mere days before we were ready to tear down for the season. On our vacuum lines we have never had this happen to any of them. It's hard for me to tell you our percentage yield gain since we have not done exstensive research like Dr. Perkins of UVM, or Stephen Childs of Cornell have done, but I can safely say we have noticed at least a 30% greater yield with the CV's. Well worth the $.35/each. This is going by our yearly syrup crop and sap volume we have kept track of since the mid 80's. I hope my 2 cents may help out
Jake Moser
Moser's Maple

[unc23win]

Seems to me that if the check valve keeps the bacteria from going back into the tap hole causing it to close and the research shows that if the tap hole is kept open longer the tap hole will yield more sap it will work on gravity or vacuum. I know that there seems to be some research about the effectiveness of the check valve in relation to the age of the tubing, but if the tap hole staying open longer is the idea why not use them when installing new tubing? Isn't one way maybe getting more sap years 1-4 and the other getting average years 1-3 and then a significant boost year 4?

Either way I don't think last season was a true test for any spouts given the dramatic change in temperature so early in the season. In my area there were some producers who had a record year because they got HARD early runs whiles others like myself never peaked which is right on target for me as I have a later running bush and the 2-3 days of 60 killed it fast. I was done March 8th in 2011 it was April 12th.

[Tweegs]

OK, so clear something up for me.


I’m under the impression that the 5/16 on vacuum will yield as much as the 7/16 (not to mention tree benefit) and the CV’s will yield even more, but on gravity the 7/16 will outperform the 5/16. If this is a true statement, is it also true of the 5/16 CV?

Stated another way, will the 5/16 CV outperform the 7/16 on gravity tube or bucket?

[unc23win]

That is a good question. I think it depends on if the 7/16 yields more because of the bigger hole in general or if the bigger hole takes longer to close. If it is because of it taking longer to close then a check valve and a 7/16 on gravity should be close given that the check valve although using a smaller hole will keep that hole open longer. Barring any drastic changes in weather similar to 2012 of course. I might try an experiment myself this year.

[maple flats]

I use the Original style CV's on all taps, new and older. My bushes are on vacuum. I think the main reason is because the tap hole runs until after the buds open. Even last year with the extra warm temperatures we had in March, my taps were not dry as we pulled them in early April, at least 3 weeks after we had 70-80 degree temperatures with no overnight freezes for 2 weeks straight. That alone says ""use CV's"
Next year I will be using the new style CV, I had bought the old before the new was introduced.

[ennismaple]

The only case I heard of a ball coming out and plugging a line (where I believe it) was a producer who knew he broke some of teeth when he seated the adapter in the tree. He was tapping under vacuum, and knowing he'd broken the teeth, he put the stubby up to the broken adapter anyway, and it sucked the ball out.

We had this happen twice our first year because we weren't careful enough seating the stubby into the CV (we tap without the vacuum on). It got noticed because sap was sitting in the line. The ball was lodged in the manifold and had to be pushed through with a nail (food grade, of course!). It was 100% user error, but... we have found a few deformed CV's over the years where a couple teeth were broken and the ball missing. A very small percentage - but not zero either.

The new Leader stubbies are far superior and shouldn't allow this to happen because of the inside taper. Once you're used to seating the stubbies it's not a problem no matter which brand you use.

[PARKER MAPLE]

Yes Mapleflats I can see that it might make a difference in that sinariio, but let me ask If you where still getting sap did you ever shut your pumps off during that period. I personally cant justify that if I was on vacuum spending the extra money for these spouts, seens how the pumps rarly shut off anyways. and those occasions that they do shut down are usually because the trees are frooze up or its a short period for you to clean the releaser and tank and back on again. Maybe my thoughts here are totally backwards and Im missing the point of the CVs but I just cant bring myself to see the benifits .. For gravity or vacuum..
I can my spouts every year with seasonals and seam to do ok. for 17cents a piece you cant go wrong

[Moser's Maple]

Maple Rookie
seasonals are a great way to go, dont get me wrong. For me personally I have trouble with 2 things about seasonal spouts. The first is on a gravity system unless you get the new generation CV you have nothing to stop the up flow of sap back into your tap hole during a cold time when the maple is producing a negative PSI. I know they say to make your drops 24 to 30 in to stop this from happening, but as for our case our drops arent always completely vertical and sometimes more curled which gives the sap and oportunity to not always flush completely down the drop during a lull between runs. And with sun beating on your drop and sap residue you are creating some degree of bacteria that when the tree does begin to have a negative PSI you introduce bacteria in your tap hole with seasonal spouts that don't have the check valve. The idea of the valve is to seal the tap hole during this negative PSI thus preventing the tap hole being introduced to bacteria. I suppose this would be the same case for vacuum, if you would have down with vacuum during the season (ie running out gas, squirrels, trees on line, or unsecured taps) which would result in loss of vacuum to the system. The second is you have to cut and replace them every year. I guess may cause I might be a little lazy, but i would rather just buy the CV's and plug the stubby into them the following season and replace my drops every three years. To me it seems like an extra step to cut and replace the spout.....during cleanup you have to take the time to cut the spout then plug the line, and during the rush of tapping you have to install the new spouts no matter how easy they may install. Just seems to me an extra step with marginal benefits. This is just my opinion and always open to rebuttles on this topic
Jake Moser
Moser's Maple

[DrTimPerkins]

I’m under the impression that the 5/16 on vacuum will yield as much as the 7/16 (not to mention tree benefit)

Correct, 5/16" on vacuum will typically produce just about the same as 7/16" on vacuum.

A 5/16" on even a modest level of vacuum (15-18") can yield double what a 5/16" on gravity will, and nearly double what a 7/16" on gravity will. The higher the vacuum, the higher the sap yield (it is a very linear relationship, with about 5-7% more sap for each 1" Hg increase)


and the CV’s will yield even more,

Typically that is the case. The older the tubing, the greater the benefit. The benefit of a CV on new tubing is relatively small, and less predictable, as it depends upon the number of freezes that occur. That is why people say don't bother with CVs on a new tubing system. There is some benefit, but it is normally fairly modest.


but on gravity the 7/16 will outperform the 5/16. If this is a true statement,

To some degree. Typically the loss will be on the order of 5-20%. On average, it'll be close to 8-10%.


is it also true of the 5/16 CV? Stated another way, will the 5/16 CV outperform the 7/16 on gravity tube or bucket?[/

It will likely do somewhat better than a standard 5/16" spout on gravity, and come closer to matching (or exceeding) the yield of a 7/16" spout. In addition, IF YOU CHANGE YOUR 5/16" SPOUT EVERY YEAR, you will undoubtedly produce more sap than you would with old 7/16" spouts, to the point where it is almost certain that you would see a net economic benefit (you will make more $ than it cost you to do this).

[DrTimPerkins]

Mostly it was seems like it was being told by salesman from other companies...

I would like to apologize for this particular line, as it seems to imply that all other salespeople are not honest. That was certainly not my intention. I know, and am friends with many salespeople from several different companies. While we may differ in opinion or outlook on some things, the majority of these folks are quite honest and try to do the right thing by their customers (and employers). Healthy competition is fine by me. Dirty tricks are another thing.

[PACMAN]

thanks I have 1000 ft of 1 inch mainline 200 ft drop. I am hoping it creates vac. would love to tap all 6000 trees but my wallet is not that thick. But half the fun is getting there.

[PACMAN]

Thanks I put in 1000 ft of mainline with a 200 ft drop in elevation. I only have 400 taps but am hopping for natural vac. would love to tap all 6000 trees but wallet not that thick.Half the fun is getting there.

[PerryW]

Thanks I put in 1000 ft of mainline with a 200 ft drop in elevation. I only have 400 taps but am hopping for natural vac. .

A Mainline will create no natural vacuum no matter how steep it is (unless it is severely overloaded). Sap in a mainline flows like rain in a gutter, not like a column of water (as in the 5/16" lateral lines). Natural vacuum in created only when the sap flows in columns (full pipe), like what you see flowing through the laterals during a good run.