UV Sap Sterilizer

[ibby458]

I'm thinking of putting in a UV light for next season. I almost always boil the day after I gather, and think a UV might improve the grade a bit.

Specifically, I'm thinking on running the sap thru the light as it's unloaded, then circulating it thru a filter and the light all night long. My questions are:

How much does it warm up the sap,
and

How much electricity does it draw?

I can put a chiller after the UV if it warms it up signifigently, but if it draws a lot of juice, I may just delete the whole thing. My light bill's high enough already!

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

There's no heat!!

[maple flats]

The UV unit I have is rated for 8gpm but I reduce the flow to 5gpm for extra margin and more complete kill. It uses very little power, I will check when at the sugarhouse today and post this eve on actual watts. I am not familiar with any others but i can get one of these and send it to you if you are interested for $300 plus shipping, a price I sell them for only to MapleTraders. I will get you the info and send you a PM if you are interested. Other units are available from many sourses but this is the only one I can get with a huge savings from list price. It would not be needed to do continuous circulating but might help if you did it twice/day for a couple of hours if you are just pumping from and returning to the same tank with the UV inline, If transferring from one to another tank just pump til transferred with UV inline and stop.
Dave

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If you get one of the powerful ones like a whole house unit, one pass would be sufficient. Circulation would be overkill especially as fast as you boil it off. That is what I do, I run it thru it once when I unload and that does the trick. Mine is a 13 gph stainless whole house, it is actually the same one in the Leader catalog made by Wedco, but I found mine on the internet for $ 300 which included shipping. :D

[maple flats]

UV may improve grade but the biggest benny is that it helps make more syrup because the bacteria feed on the sugar so as the grade drops you also need a little more evaporation to make a gallon. This is not a great amount that is lost but every bit helps. UV also helps you save sap longer. This year I saved for 5 days ok until it got up in the upper 70's air temp then I lost some because the sap I had stored was 5 days old and sap temp hit 62 degrees. It still needs to be kept cool. Next year I am going to have sap ice to help and i also bought a bigger evap with at least 3x evap rate but I will not have 3x taps so i should not need to hold so long when a real good run repeats itself for 3 or 4 days.

[ibby458]

The problem with just putting it thru the UV while unloading is that it's so slow. Some days I gathered over 600 gallons, but my gathering tank is only 350. We usually made 3 seperate gathers on good flow days. Slowing the pumpout to 13, or 8 gpm would put us well after dark before we're done. None of my storage tanks are big enough to hold a big run, either. 2 of them together would, though.

If I unloaded into the 2 smaller holding tanks, and circulated it all night, it should keep the bacteria down, then I'd start pumping it into the insulated bulk tank (thru the light) just before I started boiling. It would also keep the pump and lines from freezing on those cold nights.

Just ideas that have been running thru my head as I scrub the evaporator, etc.

[maple flats]

This year I never had more than one load to pump from off site pickup. Next year i will because i am trying to double my taps and my woods are maxed now unless i tap a lot more reds, so I will likely pump to a holding tank til I finish collecting and then pump thru the light. You are right 5 gpm is slow, I could go 8 gpm but even that is slow but I was boiling while i pumped and that was slower so it was not a problem to take the UV so slow.
Dave

[mountainvan]

I've had a uv light for 10 years and have made a grand total of 10 gals grade c! when other guys around here are making b or c I'm drawing off med or dark. If you want to get the most money for your syrup, a uv will help.

[ibby458]

Mountainvan -

Tell us how your light is set up and how you use it. I've seen mentioned on here that putting it thru the light just before it's boiled is a waste because those bacteria is gonna get instantly killed a few seconds later. THat makes sense, too.

Ideally, I'd have 2 holding tanks, each big enough to hold a big day's run. I could unload into one fast, and pump it slowly thru the light into the other, and boil it from there.

I don't see that happening for a long, long time. It's been long and expensive to gather the SS tanks that I have now.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The sooner you put it thru a UV light, the more it helps. The longer you wait, the less it helps. One thing to remember about circulating it all night long is that you better have it in an area that doesn't freeze or the lines will freeze and the UV light too even if it is circulating if it gets cold enough. :?

[sweetwoodmaple]

Make sure you keep the light bulb clean as well. Once the germies start building up, the light becomes less and less effective.

Some of the lights have wipers so you don't have to take things apart.

[mountainvan]

ibby, I have my uv light in the feedline for my ro. before that I had it mounted on the outside wall of my saphouse so that when I pumped back to the back tank the sap went through the light. I did pump faster that the 13 gal/min for best results, but I still got good results. Now my ro pulls 300-350 gal of sap/hr, so now I'm getting the best results. was just quoted $1.60/pound for grade c that's $17.60/gallon. after I reamed I made 51 gallons grade a and ny extra dark which I can sell for $38/gallon, gallon price, that's $1938. my friend who had good runs in april, tapped later than I did so he did'nt ream, made all grade c during the same time. If he made the same as me, he made more has 4000 taps, his syrup would be worth $897.6. I made $1040.40 more, in my humble opinion, because of the uv light. I have never held my sap for a couple days so I can't say that uv helps that way. With the extra syrup made because of uv, not sure on that one. But when the sap is sitting in the tank feeding the evaporator, bacteria are quickly multiplying and messing with the sap, won't get scientific too tired. If you kill the bacteria before the back tank, no messing with your sap. sorry for going on so long, sometimes I just get all riled up for no reason at all!!

[maple flats]

mountainvan, it all sounds good to me. I would think that if you dump quickly into tank A and get all of your loads in then pump to tank B thru UV light at rec. rate you would be good as long as too much time hasn't been lost, just the sunner the better for grade improvement. Should then rinse tank A before next refill.

[maplehound]

I don't have a light , but I would like to have one. It does seem to me though that circulating it back into the same tank would be a waste of time. The bacteria would be multipling faster than youu could kill them off. I would think that you would have to go from one tank to the another for any benifit at all.
Ron

[mountainvan]

a uv light kills up to 95% of the bacteria and yeast in sap, so recicu;ating is unnecessary unless you plan on holding sap for more than 48hrs. cleaning the tanks with a liitle bleach and triple rinsing is also very important. if your putting uved sap in a slimy tank you're still going to make lower quality syrup. there's only so much technology can do. the rest is good old hard dirty work.

[markcasper]

mountainvan, Was that a packer that qouted you $1.60 per pound for commercial? Mark

[ibby458]

I've always cleaned every tank after every load. I did switch to peroxide instead of chlorox. Less rinsing and chance of contamination. It only costs a few cents more, and seems to work as good.

I'd be VERY interested in who quoted $1.60/lb for grade C. That's 20 cents higher that anyone else that I've talked to. If they're 20 cents higher on other grades too, it would be worth taking a road trip.

[mountainvan]

when I was researching taphole sanitizing I went to a website of a commercial hydrogen peroxide company and they stated that it was not good for killing bacteria. so I went with the alcohol. as for the syrup, I feel backed against a wall, cause I'm not 100% sure that's what he said. I've been out of it wth cleaning tubing and the treatment stuff is still in my system. kind of like listening to your wife when the footballs on. I'll give him a call today to make sure then post it.

[maple flats]

Killing bacteria is what hydrogen peroxide does. That is why you put it on an infection and it foams when it hits bacteria. It is really the extra oxygen that kills. We need oxygen but bacteria can't stand it.

[mountainvan]

I was wrong, sorry to get your hopes up. $1.40 for c. makes me even happier I have my uv though.

[mountainvan]

Can H2O2 be used for disinfecting my pool or spa?

By itself, H2O2 is a rather poor microbiocide compared to chlorine, bromine, ozone, and other commonly used disinfectants. Consequently, it is not approved by regulatory agencies as a stand-alone treatment in these applications. However, there are a number of technologies which use H2O2 as part of the treatment program. These include: UV disinfection + H2O2; ozone + H2O2; silver salts + H2O2; and quaternary ammonium salts + H2O2. The first three of these are in various stages of commercialization (depending on the state), while the latter is available under the Baquacil label. You are advised to contact the Pool & Spa Association to learn the status of these treatments in your area.

US Peroxide is unable to offer assistance for pool and spa applications of H2O2.

this is the site I was refering to.

[ibby458]

I agree 100% that peroxide doesn't work well for pools, spas or any other application where it's mixed with lots of water.

However - if you drain a storage tank dry, then swab with straight peroxide from the drug store, you'll get good disinfection, with no harmful residue to get concentrated in your evaporator.

I mixed it 50/50 with distilled water for spraying my tapping bit, tap holes and spouts. Not a single black or slimey hole when I pulled spouts this year, even after some warm days in mid-season.

[mountainvan]

ok, I won't argue the point, but maple flats all living things on earth need oxygen to live, unless they're anaerobic. here's more info: Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is something you can buy at the drug store. What you are buying is a 3-percent solution, meaning the bottle contains 97-percent water and 3-percent hydrogen peroxide. Most people use it as an antiseptic. It turns out that it is not very good as an antiseptic, but it is not bad for washing cuts and scrapes and the foaming looks cool.

The reason why it foams is because blood and cells contain an enzyme called catalase. Since a cut or scrape contains both blood and damaged cells, there is lots of catalase floating around.

When the catalase comes in contact with hydrogen peroxide, it turns the hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) into water (H2O) and oxygen gas (O2).


2H2O2 --> 2H2O + O2
Catalase does this extremely efficiently -- up to 200,000 reactions per second. The bubbles you see in the foam are pure oxygen bubbles being created by the catalase. Try putting a little hydrogen peroxide on a cut potato and it will do the same thing for the same reason -- catalase in the damaged potato cells reacts with the hydrogen peroxide.

Hydrogen peroxide does not foam in the bottle or on your skin because there is no catalase to help the reaction to occur. Hydrogen peroxide is stable at room temperature.
this comes from the website how things work. sorry if I'm being a pain, but my wife is a science teacher, I used to be a biology teacher in Ohio and taught environmental science for 14 years up the road at the camp.

[maple flats]

I do not use nor shoul anyone use drug store hydrogen peroxide as it contains heavy metals to preserve it which you do not want in the syrup. I use food grade h2o2 which is bought in 35% concentration. It has a very short shelf life and needs to be kept in a dark storage container til it is used. My use of it began after this past Jan maple conf in Verona, NY where Chuck Winship did a presentation on it for sanitising pipeline and showed test results as to it's long term effect in tubing. Chuck is on the Cornell advisery committee and he conducted the test with Cornell monitering the results. After cleaning with just h2o2 at 1100ppm in may of 04 a test was done on bacteria, mold and fungal counts in the pipeline before the 05 season and his residual counts were tremendously lower than is found with traditional clorine sanitation. His lines tested to have less than 2% of what traditional methods have as residual after long term storage. The test was not done on new tubing either, it was done on a system the had been up for 3 years with the first 2 being cleaned by chlorine solution as per conventional wisdom and the third year it was cleaned with the peroxide trial method. After cleaning he did not rinse but only drained the system and let it set. Note also that he did not clean immediately after the season but waited til may (because he did not find the time sooner). His system is also using std black poly pipe mains because he says he can not see paying the price for the "official" tubing. His system is a 2200 tap system with vac on 1 pipe set up which he stated is oriented ideally in that it is all up hill from his sugarhouse and has good slope in all sections and it all flows directly to the sugarhouse. Chuck is the only sourse for my info. If anyone wants to try to get some more info from him he is a mapletrader who does not ever post. I have reached him by going to his profile and sending a message via email from the address there. I thought his presentation was very convinsing and by the way , he was selling nothing, only a new approach to an old problem. (Unless he happens to own stock in the peroxide industry) In fact he did use medical grade because he had not found a source for food grade peroxide but I sent him the source info from a google search. The price for qty used is very close either way. I paid $35 for 1 gal which is more than i will need for the season but will use it all because of the shelf life issue. I sanitised my taps this season by carrying a bottle of peroxide solution at 1100ppm and held the spile in the bottle for 20 seconds. Many did foam up some did not. I am not sure what caused the foaming but it happened. My syrup this year was lighter grade than previous years and I only did the taps. This year as i clean pipeline which was not done yet because my helper was sick will be with the peroxide solution, no rinse, drain and then plug system closed and do nothing before next season BUT I do plan on trying the new sanitary adapters to have new in the tap hole as opposed to sanitising the old.
If anyone ever has the oppertunity to attend a presentation on this subject by Chuck Winship I highly recommend it, very convincing, thourough, excellent slide presentation and he is easy to listen to. He gives details, test results and always listens to all comments and answers all questions completely.

[Race]

Mountainvan is correct in that Hydrogen Peroxide is a poor antiseptic, very poor actually. Those that work with microbes know that . Maple "experts sometimes disagree and cite old and outdated data.
Use what works best for your situation and application.

[maple flats]

Over the week end I emailed Chuck Winship who was the presenter at VVS maple conference who told about using hydrogen peroxide for more details. He said this is a test he is conduction for friends at Cornel. He has used the peroxide for 4 seasons now and is convinsed it is better than using bleach. He has had no deer not squirrel damage in that time, but has had a bobcat chew on the tubing and sapsucker birds. In 2005 season he made 75% light syrup and took a blue ribbon at the NYS fair with it. He does say that his Cornel friends who got him doing the H2O2 method do want him to run more washes and rinses but he does it only 1x and no rinse. Says that works good for him based on the preseason test results for bacteria and micro organisims that Cornel came up with. Why tamper with success? I did make one error in my earlier post, his pipeline system was new 4 seasons ago and that is the only cleaning it has ever had, my notes were in accurate from the seminar on this point.