Operating in multiple sugarbush units

[southfork]

I own about 600 acres in Wisconsin that is a mix of high and low lands, all connected by a decent woods road system. Within this 600 acres are multiple sugarbushes ( located on highlands ) consisting of mostly sugar maples, a few reds. Basically I have about 8 isolated sugarbushes (units), each containing 500-1000 taps. In the past I have tapped up to 900 taps on buckets. I would like to perhaps expand to 4-5000 taps on tubing, gravity and vacuum. A modern sugarhouse will be located on the property with available power, water etc, but not directly within the sugarbush area. This is due to lack of power, year round roads, running water and utilizing (converting) a fairly new 50-60 foot pole barn into a modern sugarhouse near the main county road. I could build a better road, move power in another 1/2 mile and construct another building but am trying to avoid that expense and use what I have.. And even at that, I could only get directly in some sugarbush areas and not all.

Here is my question. The sugarhouse location would be about 1/2 mile by private graveled woods road from the nearest sugarbush unit, therefore sap cannot be readily pumped directly to the sugarhouse. How do you guys with larger operations consisting of more than one remote maple unit or sugarbushes move the sap from multiple bush areas to the sugarhouse for processing? Do you pump it, truck it, pick up tanks on forks, etc etc? I am assuming I will need multiple dump stations at the various sugarbush units to collect from the tubing and then transport to the sugarhouse. Any thoughts or comments from those with a similar situation? Thank you.

[shane hickey]

I have alot of taps now i have a woods that 32
Miles from my house i hired a private contractor that hauls
Pool water to do the trucking. I collect the rest of the woods
That are closer to home with a state truck that can haul 3000 gallons
As long as your tanks are next to a drive or road
Youll be okay because your waisting time
Just pumping

[southfork]

Thank you. Seems like perhaps I need 8 or so main collecting stations and load transport tanks from there for movement to the sugarhouse. That really is no different than tapping multiple sugarbushes miles apart I guess. I have always enjoyed the Vermontville area of Michigan. Brings back memories from my days at MSU , even went to your maple syrup festival in 1976.

[jmayerl]

My buddy has a similar situation and has hauled sap a few different ways. Best way he found now is to make sure you gravel your road to the colection tank(closer to county road the better). Keep your roads plowed off all winter as that will help push the frost further down and keep it solid most of the spring. He then collects with a old fire truck that has a 2000 gal tank. He collects from 5 different tanks and makes it usually in 4 trips daily. Only takes him a few hours. Fire truck was only 5k and runs great.

[southfork]

Thank you, seems I am not alone in my thinking or situation. I am attempting to answer as many questions as possible before considering investing into a 4-6,000 tap operation. I really do not want to move the sugarhouse deeper into the forest. That would not solve all the problems, and expense and access wise creates other issues. If the project is economically feasable I will most likely hire a tubing contractor to help engineer the project. I have been improving the forest for over 15 years with sugaring in mind. Always been on buckets as a hobby, up to a max of 900.

[Mark]

I would start with getting a topo map and marking the areas of maples to get the big picture. I have 300 acres and I thought I would not be able to tap it all but with a combination of a few lifts and a pump station it all runs to the sugarhouse.

[southfork]

Thank you Mark, that would sure be ideal. Nice website, enjoyed the pictures!

[ClarkFarmMapleSyrup]

I am no where in the 4-6k range, but I do have alot of stations that are needed to be collected, and they are all on tubing. I personally have to go across a field or yard, so I have a Kawasaki Mule and haul sap, plow and use it to do anything needed. I would be using a truck and tank if not a truck,tank, and trailer with tank to collect from your 4-6k taps, and if on vac, you will be running around hauling alot with just a pickup. I would try to get as many as possible to the sugarhouse on tubing, via vac and pump stations, ladders, and a good vac pump. Then truck the rest in.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I do pump sap over a mile, it is possible and it can be done. I would pump way before I ever hauled it. Given of course that it is even possible in your scenario. I would be interested in seeing a topo map of your land, and with that you could determine what is or could be possible.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I'm with Thad.

I too have over 600 acres and when it's finally all tapped in will have 7500 to 8000 taps. With 6000 taps I already have 8 stations and 4 vacuum pumps. All sap is pumped to the sugar house which is at the roadside and is 2000 ft from the nearest station, The sap travelling the farthest is pumped in 2 stages over 7000 feet.

[gmcooper]

As Thad and Thompson said pump it if there is any way possible. Pick up and hauling will get old (I know as I haul every bit of mine). The cost of laying out a system to pump to the sugarhouse will more than likely pay for itself over a few years. Unless your wood roads are great during spring thaws your going to have more expense getting them up to snuff then pipe to get the sap moved.

[southfork]

That sounds alot like my potential set up. I do not have a lot of lift, my land is quite flat. When you guys pump long distances like that (7,000 feet ), what type of line ( piping, tubing ) do you use? Above or below ground? On my cattle ranch we bury flexible water lines for several miles to pump stock water from the well. I am certain that comes in various diameters to handle different GPM. However in Montana we only have to be down a few feet to stay out of the frost, different in Wisconsin. I appreciate all the replies, you guys have been very helpful.

[Thad Blaisdell]

All of mine is above ground, Burying it would be optimal but that is out of my league as I have no experience with it. I can get you names of people that do it and love it though. I pump 1900 taps 1 mile through a 1 inch pipe. Now if the land is flat all you would need is a simple 3/4 and small pump, no hurry, just get it done.

[tuckermtn]

pump it if you can. I have seen operations that pump a mile or more- both burried and above ground. deep well pumps, etc.

[wiam]

I pump 1600' with 1" pipe. This is buried line with my vac line in same ditch. Mine is over a hill and will siphon after I pump to start it.

[ennismaple]

We pick sap up from 5 different spots in our woods - with 400, 450, 700, 1300 and 1300 taps coming to the tanks in those locations. We use a 525 gallon poly tank on a wagon hauled behind the tractor. On a good day we'll have to make 10 trips. From one of the locations we cannot pump but it would be feasible in others (with a portable pump or a generator). Before we made the switch I'd like to see a setup similar to ours to see how they do it so we can trouble shoot beforehand. It's definitely appealing to have all the sap come to the camp on its own!

[southfork]

Thank you very much guys. I hope 2013 is an enjoyable syruping year for everyone.

[Thad Blaisdell]

To pump from a remote site, I use a generator and deep well pump. What I did was rewire the shutoff to the generator to run off from a float switch. When the tank is empty the generator shuts off, thereby shutting off the pump, works perfectly every time.

[ToadHill]

Thad, So you manually start the pump whenever there is enough sap to warrant it? Do you leave sap in the line overnight and how do you avoid freezing in that line? Do you drain it back after each time you pump?

[Thad Blaisdell]

Yes I have to manually start, but that has never been a problem as I will eventually need to be there to check on leaks and such. As far as draining it, what I have done is remove the check valve from the deep well pump. But draining it at night is not really an issue. Because I have to manually start the pump, I would wait until everything has been flowing for quite a while before ever starting the pump. If the sap is running then it has to be warm enough to thaw out the line. I have another pump shack that is all electric, That line I never drain. I turn the pump off at night so that I dont have to worry about it trying to pump with a frozen line. Half way through the day I will turn it on and let it run it will pump whenever the float goes up and shut down when float goes down.

[unc23win]

I think you should build your sugar house where you can get as many taps running into it as possible hauling gets old FAST. Maybe using a generator to run the whole thing is an option to get started. You have think about cost of fuel for generator compared to the amount of syrup you can make versus the amount of running electric maybe oyu only need the generator 1 year.

I also think you would save yourself some money by going and visiting one of the big boys and see how they do it. You would be amazed as to what some of them accomplish. Near me there is Patterson he has 100,000 taps they have them scattered all over I woudl say altogether by road they probably cover 15-20 miles. They haul 24/7 during season he has a lot of seasonal help. But they do some things you woouldn't think of unless you saw it. I think I have heard they have a main line that runs like 3 miles. I know they have 6 that are probably 1/2 a mile that you can see from the road in one spot, there they put in small shed with tanks and vacuum then they set poles and the lines are up like 20' and then they haul with a milk truck. Its all about getting a good starting point and then expanding. Thats what he did.

[mike z]

Stop by your local County Land Conservation office. They can help get you get started with good maps. Some Counties now have Lidar technology, allowing them to produce a 1 ft. contour map.

[Amber Gold]

When I'm reviewing a potential woods, or a woods I'm going to set up, I start looking for all mapping information I can find. Town's typically have their tax maps online. Frequently, you can get aerial maps online. USGS and topo (better) maps are also good to have. I'm fortunate that I'm an engineer and have access to drafting software, so I can import all of these different maps into the program, scale them up, and sketch out maple areas which gives me a rough tap count. I can then rough out a potential mainline layout, so I can do a rough cost estimate to see if it makes sense or not. This has kept me out of one woods and on the fence on another. Proper planning is worth a lot.

Also, I truck all the sap that comes to the SH. I'd pump it long before I'd truck it.

IMO. If you're planning on being open to the public and retail sales, put the SH in the pole barn at the road. Being able to see the SH from the road is worth a lot for people stopping in and finding it.

[Vermonner]

I'm with UNC, ask 10 different sugarmakers how they do it and you can get 10 different answers, none of them wrong. From operation to operation I have seen many different ways of doing the same thing, each bets suited to the situation. Try to find some producers who move sap over distances and get their experience, it may be helpful. There may be 8 different collection points out in the bush and pumping a long way may not be attractive, but can you reduce that number of collection points form 8 to, say, 6, or even 4? Black water line above ground emptied every night connecting house to house on a pump (I'm a big fan of pushing vs. pulling) will likely stay thawed and perhaps reduce the number of trips and hopefully save fuel, maybe even time. Older used International (or any class 6) trucks are usually abundant and reasonably priced, if your roads can handle them.

[southfork]

Thank you everyone. Since my original post I have had two experienced maplemen visit my property to help map and develop a plan. Looks like for the most part we will utilize a pipeline and pump to the sugarhouse. We plan to develop a 5-10,000 tap operation over a period of a couple of years. Might look very similar to Thompson's Tree Farm as described above. I appreciate all the informative posts.

[FameFlower]

We have three sugarbushes and one sugarhouse (retrofitted existing building). All on seperate pieces of land. Our collection tanks are near the paved road and we pump our sap into our truck tank and haul it to our sugarhouse. Not ideal, but it the only way if we want to make sugar that how we have to do it.

[southfork]

My roads are woods roads and some lowland. Without a significant investment in road improvements I was concerned I could haul from 5,000 taps or more on them. Sounds like with your paved roads and multiple sugarbushes you are utilizing the best option. I will still haul some sap as buckets may not be totally eliminated due to spread out trees in one old horse pasture area. I have about 1000 buckets to keep in use if I have to. I have been hauling with Polaris ATV and Ranger for 13 years.

[heus]

Southfork sounds like you own a little piece of heaven. Im stressing over figuring out how to put all my 1000 or so possible taps on line on my 28 acres. 600 acres, wow.

[southfork]

Some of mine is swamp, a haven for wolves and bear, lots of wolves. I do not have a complete maple inventory, somewhat depends on which areas make sense to penetrate. I am certain at capacity I could reach near 10,000 taps on 8 inches and above, 5-6,000 on ten inches and above. About 90 % sugars if I stay out of the lowlands. I plan to phase that over a couple of years, starting with 1000 on vacuum, and expanding over two years from there. I am in the engineering phase after 13 years on buckets and planning for expansion.

[Big John]

I bet you that it is possible to get all the taps to run to one point. You may have to bury some of the main lines but I bet you can do it. so build a pump house. use a electric releaser with a deep well pump, bury the line back to the sugar house. you can pump for miles. or dump into a tank with said pump, and pump it back. You will need like a 3hp deep well to keep up with the sap flow of 10,000 taps. On 27 hg. I assume if you are going to have 10,000 you are going to build it right. And get all you can from the taps you have invested in. Buckets are for fun. But for money, you need a real system. 8 collection points is just not going to get it done. I am vacuum or nothing. At todays prices for parts and tubing. You need every last drop. Just my opinion.

[southfork]

Thank you Big John. You are right, the buckets will be continuing the tradition for family and friends on the scattered trees off the tubing grid. We will continue our wood fired 2 1/2 X 8 Dallaire in our original sugarhouse for the bucket brigade.

This is all work in progress, which begins tomorrow. I hope to pump sap by 2014, more by 2015, I am in no hurry.

[maple flats]

If you have any thoughts of selling retail from the main sugarhouse, or giving tours/open houses, keep the sugarhouse where it can be seen and regardless of weather, can be gotten to. Then pump as much as possible to the sugarhouse if all is not possible. It will save you big headaches later on.
If you only plan to wholesale then build the sugarhouse to the trees, where all sap can be pumped to. Then have enough proper storage to keep the syrup until roads firm back up.
I'd pump all mine if I could. My bushes are 7 and 10 miles away. Right of ways and installation would cost me more than I could pay for in production for the rest of my life.