Barrels and gravity tubing?

[Sugarmaker]

Looking for ideas on using 25 to 50 gallon plastic drums in between several (3-4) trees, and then running gravity tubing to from the barrel to the trees. All road side trees. Trying to cut down some of the labor. I talked to Jay on this and got some good ideas. Looking for dos and don't for this type of a set up? Also cleaning ideas. You guys know I am pretty low budget, OK Cheap! So nothing to fancy. I will have to take these down each year too.
Thanks,
Chris

[GregMVT]

We use 20-30 gallon plastic storage containers from Walmart, under $10 each. I think they are better than barrels since they sit lower and most of out tubing lines are set up in small groups, about 5-20 taps per container. They also clean up and stack pretty easy.

Greg

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The Rubbermaid storage containers you can get at walmart work great. I have a couple 31 gallons. They stack inside themselves at the end of the season and have lids that lock tight. Spend a little more and get rubbermaid. :D

[davey]

I use the rubbermaid storage containers like Brandon does, works quite nicely. I also picked up a small bilge pump at walmart for 16 dollars in their boat department. It runs on 12 volts and makes it pretty simple to empty the containers. I use a lawn mower battery and a pair of alligator clips for power. Just drop the pump in the box, a hose in your transport tank, plug in and it empties pretty quickly.

[Banjo]

Although it's not to your scale but these "one per tree" buckets I used this year worked great. I had 2 or three taps per tree and drilled a tight fit hole in the side for the tube. Got buckets for free from a commercial kitchen. Sap was always clear and unbothered by rain. For gathering next year I think I'll just have two extra ones, then can walk up with an empty one and just switch the hose. Then empty it and repeat. Oh, the bricks were necessary to combat the wind!

Here's a clickable thumbnail.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/Banjo1293/Huckleberry%20Orchards%20Farm/th_MiniPipelines.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/Banjo1293/Huckleberry%20Orchards%20Farm/MiniPipelines.jpg)

FWIW, Andrew

[mountainvan]

I used the 50 gal rubbermaid for years. used 45 gal sterlite this year also. I have several spots that have 30+ taps going into a container. I have 5/16 harnesses made for each tree going into the 1/2 mainline. the gray plastic t's used with black poly pipe are at each tree. 5/16" tubing fits snuggly into the t, it would probably be tight enough for vacuum. I've found this to be the cheapest way to set-up a small sugarbush. I've used this set-up for at least 10 years.

[Sugarmaker]

Guys thanks,
I kept thinking barrels buy I really like the idea of the Rubbermaid stack-able units! Storing and cleaning sounds much easier than a barrel. I will have to check them out. Brandon you said 50 gallon, Some one else said 30 gal. so I will check out both.
Do you worry about them moving (blowing around) when empty? I see Banjos idea of the weight on top.
How do you connect the incoming lines on the rubber made units to the lid? Or do you make custom lids?
Any estimate of Max length of 5/16 tubing from container to furthest tree?
I saw the note on another thread about big producers not cleaning their tubing. But I would at least like to rinse or sanitize these short runs. Do you have to hang the tubing up and let it drain and dry after rinsing (washing)?

Right now more questions than answers. Thanks everone for responing to a old bucket guy.

Chris

[davey]

I just drilled a 5/16ths hole in the lid and stuck a tap in it.

[Banjo]

I drilled the hole in the side just under the rim so that rain pooling in the top couldn't get in. We had some pretty crazy winds this spring and the pails tipped in one of them, even with a bit of sap in the bottom. After the bricks went on top it was OK.

FWIW. Andrew

[GregMVT]

I use a 7/16 bit and drill the hole high up on the side in the middle. I have never had a problem with wind blowing them.

Greg

[Sugarmaker]

Davey,
Now that's why I like about this forum, I might have thought of that after a while but that sounds like a slick way of holding the tubing to the lid.

Guys are these rubber maid containers rectangular in shape? Someone mentioned low profile? So If I had 30 gallon containers I could put about 8 taps into those (2 trees). 50 gallons container could have (12 taps or 3 trees). This would allow for a little room on avg runs.

OK Experts what tubing? Jay said he liked the Leader "new" memory flex for the 5/16 "mains" and used the 5/16 Ultra-flex Drop line for the drops? I have the Leader 'wish' book in front of me but I have not really started shopping for items yet. I am counting on you guys to get me set up so I don't have to trial and error this for ten years like most of my other projects.

Question what do you guys do with all your spare time if you don't have to dump buckets? Could I sneak a nap in?
Thanks!
Chris

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Just lay a couple of rocks or limbs or whatever is handy on them and they will stay put! :D

[royalmaple]

Chris-

Take a look on my pictures link and I have some photos showing the rubbermaid totes I used this season. I got the 37 gallon grey ones, they were from home depot I think 11ish dollars with lids.

I drilled either 5/16 or 3/4 holes just under the lid, so lid was free when I needed to pump out. You can see on one of the pics I have two of them pretty close and I was able to drive up to them with my 4 wheeler and bildge pump them out. Nice thing I found about drilling in the side of the tote was even during a run you can pump out and not lose any of the sap.

I never had a problem of them tipping over, lids snap on securely. I guess if these were roadside and prone to more wind it may be wise to put a brick on them.

Even when it got warm this season and with the totes nearly full, the sides really buldged out from the sap and heat of the sun, but still held up.

I liked using them more than trash cans since they are much lower to the ground and actually hold more. Seems like win win.. :lol:
:lol:

I was very happy with them and really didn't find any drawbacks to using them.

[royalmaple]

Chris-

Also you wanted to know about length of 5/16 line. I tried pushing the limits out back on one section. I'm sure you have read or seen the standard under 100 feet and 5-10 taps per section of line. Pretty sure most try to keep 5ish per line.

Well I ran one line about 150 feet in one direction, t'd into it and ran another 75 feet in another direction, and t'd into that 75 foot section and ran another 100 feet off from that. This whole set up ran into a container with one 5/16 line. I had 22 taps on it all 10-12 inch trees, wooded trees, so not your average roadside honey holes. And I was surprised this section ran unreal, all sections of tubing were flowing very well and it poured out of the 5/16 line into the container when sap was running. I wish I had a way to check the vacuum, there had to be some natural vacuum on the lines they were cranking. And I really didn't have much pitch to the lines, pretty flat ground. Just eyeballed it.

So from what I have done on a very small experiment, beat the suggested rule of thumb.

I'm sure some others with more experience have got some stories too.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

I deleted post

[royalmaple]

I purchased a pack of stainless steel small hose clamps at home depot and that works pretty good too. They were cheap for 20 or 25, think a couple of bucks.

But I found if I used a regular wood 5/16 drill bit the O.D. of the tubing was still large enough that, I really had to work it into the hole then really pull from the inside to get it through. Once in there, it was not slipping out for sure. Didn't even need a hose clamp.

[maple flats]

When I used this type of set up I put little spring clamps on the tube inside the collection tub, they couldn't pull out. If I needed to remove the tubing I just took the clamp off.

[Sugarmaker]

Matt, and everyone,
Thanks for the pictures. I see many options that you folks have tried and can see some tubing in our near future. These containers, somewhere between 30 and 50 gal., look like they would work really well for our road side trees! Cheryl likes the idea too, so we will be doing some shopping for supplies for next syrup season.

Brandon, I think some patio blocks would do the trick to keep these in place. (Or I could use the 15 lb weights off my grandsons pulling tractor?)

I have cut a little wood (pallets) enough for about 8 gallon of syrup. My pallet supply is a truck load each week, so it is a slow, over the summer process.

Already thinking about another bilge pump and pipe it into the dumping station on the back of the truck. As I may have some buckets I still need the dumping station for pails too.

Thanks again,
Chris

[royalmaple]

Chris-

I'm not 100% sure but I bet you could get away with just a regular brick on the top for weight.

I bet you'll cut down your collection time drastically if you add some tubing and some of these containers to your set up. It would not take long or too many small tubing systems to see the collection time drop way off.

I guess depending on how close you can get to the totes with your truck will depend on how large of a bildge pump to consider for pumping them out. I know the pumping rate on them drops off pretty fast when you pump over distance or have any type of rise.

Next year I was planning on doing the same thing, and just extending the tube from the pump and adding a bunch more power cord to the pump, that way I can have it fastened to my collection tank on the van. Then just walk it to the totes and hit the switch or clip onto the battery and pump away. I was going to keep my bucket dumping setup, but just bypass that when I was pumping out of the totes so I was not just pumping and repumping the same sap.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Not sure why the concern about putting a clamp on the tubing. I make the hole on mine just large enough to push the tubing inside. The hole is very, very snug and this will shed off any water that runs down the tubing but it is easy to put in and out of the container to clean it every week or two. :D

[maple flats]

When I did this I was using 5 gal cooking oil jugs from restaurants which were very light and the wind would blow them over and pull the tube out. The jugs were too flimsey to hold weight on top but I put the clamp on and made the tube to the tank just long enough so as the wind blew it would lift an empty jug but the jug would land upright because it hung on the tube. After the sap started to get some weight it stayed put. I ran the tubing thru the cap and had extra jugs so I just unscrewed the cap, put a freshly sanitised jug down and put the cap on the new one. I actually only changed jugs every other day because I could not carry that many jugs on what I was using on the tractor to carry everything. It did work but longer tubing set-ups with larger tanks is faster now. On the old set-up I had 1 jug/tree and 1-4 taps depending on size of tree and if it was going to be removed for stand improvement.

[lew]

WE used to run several barrels on roadside trees. I can't remeber the exact size of the hole we drilled through the barrel, but it was just large enough to put a 5/16 "T" fitting through the barrel then we put a short piece of tubing on the "T" inside the barrel. The hole was small enough that the tubing couldn't fit throught the hole. I remember that we also used the "T"s that were designed so that you could pull the tubing apart (these were old "T"s from the days when you used to pull your entire tubing system apart to clean it). When we didn't have any of these "T"s, we would put the tubing over only one barb of the "T" inside the barrel, this way you could get the fitting apart relatively easily so you could wash or dump the barrel as needed.

[Sugarmaker]

I am going to try several methods for connecting the tubing. Just a hole is definitely the cheapest and simplest. Some of my totes might be very close to the road ( in a shallow ditch) and may even get snowplows and traffic wind.
Brandon,
Brick may work just fine.

Chris

[brookledge]

Another good idea for those barrels that are close to the road, especially for snow plows is to locate the barrel next to a guard rail or sign post or anything that you can tie a rope around the barrel and the post.
Or even drive a wooden stake in the ground before the frost sets in and it will be solid when sugaring season rolls around then pull it out for the summer.
Keith

[Sugarmaker]

I was Walmart shopping and found the Sterlite brand totes in 35 gallon with nice lids and flip up handles to lock the lid down, looked about the right size. They were $11.50 each. So I may start with something like that.
These were a medium blue color. I also saw some clear ones which would be nice to do a drive by and see the sap level. Wonder if there would be a n advantage to the clear containers for keeping the quality of the sap up? Not sure what brand these were.
Still shopping.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Chris,

I a dark blue Rubbermaid and the sap in it is better quality than any of my light colored galvanized tanks later in the season.

Go figure! :?

[GregMVT]

Chris

I had tried a couple of the clear ones. If the ones you are looking at are the hard plastic then they probably won't last. They are difficult to drill holes in and they crack very easily. Mine only lasted 2 seasons.

Greg

[Sugarmaker]

Greg, Brandon
Yes the clear ones were hard plastic. I had not thought about cracking and or drilling. Good comments and suggerstions.
Chris

[royalmaple]

Chris-

The grey ones like I have in my pictures are pretty soft plastic, like trash cans. Drill out well and won't crack. I think you'll have better luck with the softer ones.

[Russ]

We used sixty 21-gallon totes from Wal*Mart this year on many mini-networks in lieu of running two of our gas-powered vacuum systems. We basically disconnected the laterals from the star-manifolds in the mainlines of our oldest (and very inefficiently installed) pipeline systems and ran them into the totes. We plowed ATV trails to the totes that weren't near logging roads to aid in collecting.

Results were good enough that we will expand this concept in more areas of our woods. The sap was clear in all the totes right up to the end, which helped improved our grade by one level. We tore down some of the mainline and 9-gauge that were always blocking some of our roads and trails. Clean-up and storage was a breeze as well.

I think my brother got the totes on sale for less that $4. If you consider that we have 1200+ gallons of storage for about $240 that is portable and fits on a 6x6 pallet in the sap shack (and no bag holder assembly required), this is a good option to consider in certain circumstances.

[Sugarmaker]

Matt,
I agree that the softer plastic is probably the way to go with freezing and rough handling.
Russ,
Sounds like your operation worked well as a interim step on the 'old' tubing system.
I am definitely going to try this next year. Goal is to cut my gathering time from 4 hours to 2 hours.
Increase in sap quality would be a added plus!
Chris

[Sugarmaker]

Just a note to let you guys know that you convinced me to try this tubing (gravity) to tote idea. I have about 60% of our 400+ taps on this tubing system for 2007 season.
We are using 39 gallon Sterlite totes (Turned out to be a little on the pricey side at near $20 each), with locking lid handles, a 48 inch bungee cord over the tote and fastened to a wooden pallet, we have 12 to 16 taps going into one tote. I drilled a hole near the top of the tote and brought the tubing in through that. I also added a metal hose clamp onto the tubing inside the tote to keep some tension on the tubing. we have 18 totes out so 700+gallons of sap storage for 200+ taps. This should be about right. With 4 gal buckets it would be 800 gallons, and I expect to get a little less sap per run with the tubing.
I think Saturday will be the first real test with a good run. Cheryl and I have gathered 3 small 'practice' runs, getting use to the remote pump and the hose system. I will let you know the results in a day or so.

I did have some start up issues that we mostly my fault. (Tubing pulling off fittings). At this time most issues have been corrected. ( I will try to take some pictures.

Still a bunch to learn about cleaning and maintaining after the season, but we will cross that bridge later. Thanks for you help, advice, and ideas!


Sugarmaker

[Bucket Head]

Chris & fellow Mapletrader's,

I'll share with you guy's what my father and I did five year's ago when we tapped two long row's of roadside tree's. We had never used tubing before so we did not know anything about recomended # of tap's per line, or anything about mainline sizing. Wether it's right or wrong, it's what we did and it has worked great for us. If anything, maybe you guy's can use this info as "food for thought".

Both row's of tree's were about 400' long and were on a pretty good downhill grade. One row has 22 tree's with 44 tap's and the other has 18 tree's with 31 tap's.

Like Chris, I too am cheap,...um,... I mean were both frugal. We did not use any mainline. Both row's are all 5/16 tubing. I have two plastic 55 gallon drum's at the bottom of each line. One barrel at both collection point's is up on cinder block's so it is higher than the other and I have a small piece of tubing going to the other barrel for the "overflow" from the first barrel. I drilled a hole in the side of the first barrel and then I put the other end in the top of the second barrel.

Like I said, I don't know if this way of doing it was right. All I can tell you guy's is when the sap is running, I have a steady steam of sap going into the barrel's. Without fail, I will haul between 175 and 200 gallon's of sap home from those tree's! Both barrel's on the 44 tap line will be full and the 31 tap line will have at least a barrel and a half.

I'm sure the steep grade help's out. Maybe this many tap's on a line would not flow as well if it were a lesser grade. I have heard a lot about "natural vacuum". I don't know if I have any or not, but I'm going to find out. This year, I installed a fitting at the top of each line for a gauge. I will have to let you guy's know what I find out.

We can not leave this tubing up year round. So when we take it down, we cut each line up into section's approx. 50 feet long and we label them for reinstallation. When we get them home I take a fitting I made for the garden hose and run water through each section. Then my father will put compressed air through each section as I go along and cap each tap, forcing all the water out the end. This method work's very well. Our tubing look's like new still and it should last for many year's before I have to replace it. This help's out with that "frugal" thing I mentioned.

I hope some of this info is usefull to you guy's. Good luck to everyone this season!

Steve

[brookledge]

Steve
I don't think that is too many taps for a gravity system. However it would be too many if it where a vacuum system. You would not get good vacuum transfer through that much 5/16. That is why with vacuum most recommend around 10 taps as the max on a lateral.
If it is working good for you then stick with it
Keith

[Sugarmaker]

Folks Just found this thread again:)
Hard to believe We have been using the short run tubing systems for 8 years! We are at 650 taps and have made some improvements each year.
Next move would be to go to battery powered mini vacuum systems at each container:) Any ideas?
Still trying to get the most from these good roadside trees!
Regards,
Chris

[bcarpenter]

Chris,
The battery powered vacuum system was the best thing I ever did! If you search for the 1st day sap puller there is a good thread with enough info to get you thinking. I put together one of these rigs just from reading the thread and it tripled my sap quantity from my finicky red maples! Last year I think we were around 180 gallons of sap and this year with the SHurflo Vacuum setup and a 1/2" mainline we are over 500 gallons as of today.

You can always check my website/blog for what I did in addition to searching the maple trader for options, but adding vacuum is the way to go! Good luck,
Bill C.

[Sugarmaker]

Bill,
Thanks.
Just p.m.ed you on this too as I missed your post here.
We will talk. And I will check out the thread.
Regards,
Chris

[West Sumner Sugar]

I use 5/16 to tie together 4 trees in the back yard of my rental property. It is 100% flat but I just start the tubing high and finish it lower. There are 8 taps on this run that dump into a 55 gallon drum. As flat as it is this produces quite well. Check out this video from a week or so ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uXUImxQrks

[Moser's Maple]

Chris
here's a video of the shurflo setup I threw together the other day. now that I know it's working good,i'll change some hoses/tanks. and will just make it look a lot cleaner. Also the tree the vac gauge is nailed to is marked as removal because we are still still this part of the woods.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIHKxcNAJTg

[SeanD]

Thanks for posting that. Videos help a lot. How will you keep the pump from freezing? Is that a battery on the back side?

Sean

[Moser's Maple]

yes battery on backside, and I'll pull the pump whenever I think it's going to freeze or threaten to freeze. This throw together was to just see if I could yield more out of this section that is in between 2 of our main vac systems. more if i lose a little by pulling pump earlier doesn't bother me