Gas, Elec or Vac Line to run vac pump/dump station

[Joust7.1]

I'm sure something like this has been asked before on here but I would be interested in hearing any feedback based on comparable or similar situations that are in operation or were tried. Now that I've got my Bender working I'm now back on board with vacuum and pumped to get this set up for the season.

Situation:
My dump station (Bender Releaser) is about 650' from my sugar house and electricity. My vac pump is a DeLaval Dairy pump with a 3/4 HP electric motor. Keep in mind that I will only have about 125-150 total taps on this system. Also, I can only get about 13.5" of vac on my pump so far (that's another tweak that I have to figure out). From what I can gather, my options are as follows for powering this pump and getting vac to my woods.

1. Run a long electrical line to the pump (probably heavy gauge and expensive)
2. Keep the pump at the sugar house and run a long dryline from sugar house to run the releaser and dump station (maybe less expensive but would it be less effective)
3. Buy a gas motor and set that up with the pump (single use item and could go through a lot of fuel?)
4. Buy a generator and use that to power the pump (has the added benefit of running a transfer pump from dump station into my gathering tank and would be available for a power outage at the house, which we have already considered / also would potentially use a lot of fuel).

I'm not sure if anyone else has looked at these options and made a decision based on function and cost but I'm interested in hearing some thoughts about this. I started this question at the end of another thread but figured it would be more of a stand alone item for discussion. I had one response saying to go with the vac line from my electric source to the woods.

[spencer11]

i would run a cable out to your pump, thats what i plan to do, gas can add up quickly and gas motors dont always start, granted an electric one only works if the power hasent gone out. i wouldnt run a pipe to the releaser from your pump at the sugar house you would loose to much vacuum

[wiam]

i would run a cable out to your pump, thats what i plan to do, gas can *** up quickly and gas motors dont always start, granted an electric one only works if the power hasent gone out. i wouldnt run a pipe to the releaser from your pump at the sugar house you would loose to much vacuum

You would have to have a very large cable to do this. I do not lose any vacuum with 1600' of 1.25 on 1000 taps.

[lpakiz]

I vote for the vacuum line out to the releaser location. I run a gas engine and it will take more than 2 1/2 gallons a 24 hour day. And you get options to auto start or auto shut down by air temp also.

[farmall h]

Darn it....I wrote a nice response to this question and got logged out ....hmmm.:mad:

[farmall h]

Joust7.1. Run a 3/4" black 100 psi line from the releaser jar to your location 650ft. in the woods. A dry line is NOT needed for 150 taps. Locate the Bender on the wall in the sugar house above a tank. Locate the vac pump outside of the sugar house under cover(quieter). Plumb the pump to the releaser. Do not use the dumping station (not necessay). Vacuum on pump is adjusted at the regulator. 18" max for the Benders to operate smoothly. Please see pics and details posted by Dennis H. Last year's posts. This will save you time and $ plus you can see that sap coming in the jar!!! Good luck.

[wiam]

Joust7.1. Run a 3/4" black 100 psi line from the releaser jar to your location 650ft. in the woods. A dry line is NOT needed for 150 taps. Locate the Bender on the wall in the sugar house above a tank. Locate the vac pump outside of the sugar house under cover(quieter). Plumb the pump to the releaser. Do not use the dumping station (not necessay). Vacuum on pump is adjusted at the regulator. 18" max for the Benders to operate smoothly. Please see pics and details posted by Dennis H. Last year's posts. This will save you time and $ plus you can see that sap coming in the jar!!! Good luck.

This will only work well if it is all down hill from trees to sugarhouse.

[Joust7.1]

I may be using the "dump station" terminology in a wrong way. However, I would have to collect at the dump station (place where I put a tank and soon a releaser in the woods at the end of my mainline) as it is downhill from my sugar house. I have to transport by tank, trailer and tractor the same 650' back to my sugar house. I have some 3/4" that I can try to see if there is any vacuum loss and to make sure it still runs the releaser. If not I found a source for some inexpensive black water tubing that can be delivered to my house for no extra charge yesterday at the NYS Maple Conference. Somebody had recommend 1.25" diameter, I forgot to pick up the Cornell Tubing Manual yesterday. The manual could probably help me determine the recommended size vac line to use. Are the vacuum regulators on dairy pumps adjustable or fixed. I can only get 13.5".


This will only work well if it is all down hill from trees to sugarhouse.


Joust7.1. Run a 3/4" black 100 psi line from the releaser jar to your location 650ft. in the woods. A dry line is NOT needed for 150 taps. Locate the Bender on the wall in the sugar house above a tank. Locate the vac pump outside of the sugar house under cover(quieter). Plumb the pump to the releaser. Do not use the dumping station (not necessay). Vacuum on pump is adjusted at the regulator. 18" max for the Benders to operate smoothly. Please see pics and details posted by Dennis H. Last year's posts. This will save you time and $ plus you can see that sap coming in the jar!!! Good luck.

[farmall h]

Joust7.1 you didn't mention the fact that the bush was below the sugar house. If that is the case then yes, run a 3/4" vac line to the bender. If you have electric at the sugar house your all set. Yes, the regulators are adjustable.

[Joust7.1]

I finally have the vacuum line installed to my woods and collection tank. I ran 1.25" over 600'. Vac levels look very similar to what I was getting at the pump so the pipe diameter may be an overkill but at least it's working. I still haven't found out how to adjust the vac level on my delaval dairy pump. It has a weight that says 15. Do you just add more weight?

[TheMapleMoose]

We have a very similar set up just more distance of vacuum line. We run 1600'. Set up works excellent. No vacuum loss between pump and released. Having the pump in the sugar house electric and auto start is incredibly too convenient. Just a suggestion- tie a return line onto the woods side of your releaser and run it back to the sugar house to a vacuum gauge. Ours is 1/2"'pex. It tells us if there is a problem in the woods without having to ride down and look.

[Joust7.1]

Great suggestion. I may try to add that feature for next year. When I turned the pump off last night, I didn't account for all that vacuum in the system and my pump back spun quite a few revolutions. Is that bad for the pump? If so would an easy fix be to add a valve next to the pump to dump the vac before shutting off the pump?

[TheMapleMoose]

Yeah- or put a check valve in the pump exhaust. Our rotary vane came set
up that way.

[BreezyHill]

You need to have the check valve between the pump and the moisture trap. Check out the guidelines for Health Dept inspection. No check in the vac line and oil can get into sap when pump rotates backwards. The vanes can be damaged by reverse rotation. You want all the vac you can get, remove the weight system apparatus. Cattle & goats cant handle above 15" of vac. For every 1" above 15 you increase production by 5-7%. My D 73 runs 27" until the lines freeze and then she goes to 29".

Ben

[Mark]

[QUOTE=Joust7.1;198231]I'm sure something like this has been asked before on here but I would be interested in hearing any feedback based on comparable or similar situations that are in operation or were tried. Now that I've got my Bender working I'm now back on board with vacuum and pumped to get this set up for the season.

Situation:
My dump station (Bender Releaser) is about 650' from my sugar house and electricity.be less expensive but would it be less effective)


650 feet is not that far, I would run electricity to it. Find a voltage drop calculator on the web and find out what size wire it would take. I run electricity 2800 feet to a pump station.

ohms x amps = voltage drop

[maple flats]

How many amps and what gauge wire do you use for 2800? I'll give you your voltage drop. As an example, on 120V if you draw just 10A you will lose 5.61 volts. at 6a 240v and 2 ga wire you lose 10.718 v. These are for aluminum wire. Either will cost far more than a proper sized vacuum line. Give me your numbers and I'll give your exact loss.

[Mark]

I use the electric for the two transfer pumps, controls, heater, lights, video camera and have two 2 inch lines for the vacuum. I use 4/0 aluminum. The ohms is 0.0804 for 1000 feet. I don't run the heater while running the pumps but I have put it one to see what the voltage does with it on and the pumps starting. I put a voltage meter on it and can hardly see any drop when the motors start and have been surprised on how well it works over the last five years.

I monitor the current and voltage at the sugarhouse at times I am at about 300 amps if everything is up and running and I see about a 2 volt drop. That would also drop the back pump station a couple volts since it is on the same service. Some motors are good down to 208 volts if it was a problem but mine works real good as it is. If it was not, I would use a couple transformers to double the voltage and cut the current in half.

[BreezyHill]

So any experience with hydro electric generation. I have asked around about this and don't get a straight up answer.
Here is what I have and the goal:
Goal: produce as much power as I can from my brook.
I have a brook located 75 feet from my sugar house that had a dam washed out by Irene. Below the dam
in 150' I have 24 feet of drop. I can build a 4' dam to have 28' of drop. Could go 5' but will kill off 10 to 25 taps due to the reservoir.
Water flow varies from a 4" pipe to 12" depending on season. Last year it went dry during the drought.

Looking at pelton wheel design to drive the generators and want to do grid tie. Know to many that have solar on batteries and change them out every two years for big $$$.
Have worked with and wind mill dealer to install them and found they don't return well unless they are 150' and mega $$$. Even though we are in the" perfect spot for wind".
Solar...well that works on the latest systems...6 months but the 9 month old system I know off is 10% of the production. Big advances in just three months...wait another year and it should be pretty good.

Brook runs 24/7...sun 12/7 on sunny days

I have a feed mill on site so we use plenty of power so the 110% issue is not a problem on the grid tie.

Most of the commercial places want to send you a kit that" should work...I ask pin point question and get nothing back.

Any suggestions?

Thanks Ben

[GeneralStark]

So any experience with hydro electric generation. I have asked around about this and don't get a straight up answer.
Here is what I have and the goal:
Goal: produce as much power as I can from my brook.
I have a brook located 75 feet from my sugar house that had a dam washed out by Irene. Below the dam
in 150' I have 24 feet of drop. I can build a 4' dam to have 28' of drop. Could go 5' but will kill off 10 to 25 taps due to the reservoir.
Water flow varies from a 4" pipe to 12" depending on season. Last year it went dry during the drought.

Looking at pelton wheel design to drive the generators and want to do grid tie. Know to many that have solar on batteries and change them out every two years for big $$$.
Have worked with and wind mill dealer to install them and found they don't return well unless they are 150' and mega $$$. Even though we are in the" perfect spot for wind".
Solar...well that works on the latest systems...6 months but the 9 month old system I know off is 10% of the production. Big advances in just three months...wait another year and it should be pretty good.

Brook runs 24/7...sun 12/7 on sunny days

I have a feed mill on site so we use plenty of power so the 110% issue is not a problem on the grid tie.

Most of the commercial places want to send you a kit that" should work...I ask pin point question and get nothing back.

Any suggestions?

Thanks Ben

It would probably be best to hire a consultant with experience setting up small scale hydro systems, but at the least you should get yourself a HomePower subscription and use their online catalog to search for articles on microhydro. I don't think you'll find a much better resource for designing a DIY system.

The key is head and it looks like you have some, but with variable flow it gets tricky calculating the turbine sizing and piping. To get any substantial production, you will need a dam upstream and a penstock or long pipeline to to feed the pelton wheel nozzles.

Hydro is the way to go if you have the resource, but a properly designed system is key. I'm not sure what state you are in, but here in VT microhydro can get tricky with state regulators, so most use it for off grid under the radar systems.

[BreezyHill]

Location...well the farm is cut in two by the ST line but dam in NY plant in Ny or go 15 feet further and in VT. easier to build if stay all in NY...due to road next to brook. Thanks for the info.