Could sap run if temps go above freezing ?

[TerryEspo]

I often wonder if sap would run in the middle of winter on a day when the daytime temp goes above freezing. Or does the tree need a few days like that to get started ? My local weather says in a couple days weather will be above freezing in the day and below freezing at night,,,that is why I am thinking like I am !!

Thanks.

Terry

[jmayerl]

Most likely not. It will take a few days to get the sap flowing.

[sugarman3]

It could, if your weather has not been bitter cold,and the trees are not frozen,but i would not get to anxious,tad bit early

[unc23win]

The sap will run just about any day that is above freezing after a freezing night. However it runs more after longer periods of freezing. That is why February and March are the normal season. Most of the ground has been frozen for a couple of months. Most people believe the longer the ground is frozen and the longer the tree roots are snow covered the better the sap season will be.

I actually know someone who tapped some trees about 2 weeks ago and was making syrup, but the sugar content was low they boiling at a rate of 80 to 1.

[TerryEspo]

I am not going to tap this soon, was just wondering what the trees do when temps rise above freezing. Curious and anxious, but not taping yet. I go back to my area right now and mentally calculate how I am going to run my tubing into how many barrels. Cant wait for the 2013 season to start.

Thanks.

Terry

[spud]

I did some fall tapping this year just as an experiment. What I found in my woods was the trees would run after just one cold night. In order for my sap to run the air temps had to be in the mid to high 40s but the sun had to be shining on the trees also. During the wind storm we had 2 weeks ago the temp went to 46 at my house and the temp in the direct sun went to 52 degrees. That day I got a real 2 gallons per tap on my big trees (30+ inch). This is why I plan to tap in January. Vermont gets a January thaw a lot of times where we can have a better part of a week that hits the mid 40s or more. If we should have 4-5 days like that this January we could get 1-2 gallons of sap each day. Like I have said in other post PMRC tapped in January two years (2006-2007) and in both years they got 5+ GPT. Now I am not saying that will happen every year but it does happen at times. If it does this year I could stand to make 30,000+ gallons of sap in January. I would hate to miss out on all that sap.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

I often wonder if sap would run in the middle of winter on a day when the daytime temp goes above freezing. Or does the tree need a few days like that to get started ?

It could, but there is often a delay in sap run due to the fact that the tree is solidly frozen, and it takes a period of time (or some good strong sun) for the wood and sap to thaw out, especially early in the season. Late in the season there is often less of a lag, because the freeze is not completely through the tree, but is just a shell of frozen wood on the outside (especially on the north side).

[TerryEspo]

Hi Dr. Tim,

It all makes sense to me.

On another note for Dr. Tim

I read an article of yours on the dynamics of sap and vacuum flow. All 4 test lines had mainlines of 3/4. Would anything change if the mainlines were 5/16 ? Same as the drop lines. I ask that becuse that is my plan this year. Useing all and only 5/16 lines for my small operation.

Thank-you.

Terry

[TapME]

Terry, i have some video on you-tube that shows a 5/16 mainline with I beleive 50 taps on it. Check it out. Look under saphauler channel or maple sap in 5/16 tubing

[adk1]

Wow, I just checked that out.. I have never gotten sap to run like that on any of my lats..Although, I dont have any that have 50 taps on it either, but wow!

[TerryEspo]

Wow,,,,yep, sure looks good. Love that short video of the sap running. Wish I could have seen the end that it was pouring out of, lol.

I dont understand why I didnt do it last year, I did use tubing buy they all went into individual pails or 2 gallon buckets. This year I hope to have say 10 minimun lines into containers, depends on each location though.

Thanks.

Terry

[Starting Small]

Like I have said in other post PMRC tapped in January two years (2006-2007) and in both years they got 5+ GPT. Now I am not saying that will happen every year but it does happen at times.
Spud[/QUOTE]
Is that 5GPT sap/day?

[spud]

NO. They got 5+ GPT in about a 4 day period. You can go to their site and read the study. I think you will find it to be very interesting.

Spud

[TerryEspo]

Hi Spud: Those tap holes that gave 5 GPT, would those holes still be good to use weeks later when the real season started ? If not, then would they re-tap all the trees ? Maybe they only tapped certain trees for the study and left them alone after the January test?

Interesting none the less.

Thanks.

Terry

[DrTimPerkins]

I read an article of yours on the dynamics of sap and vacuum flow. All 4 test lines had mainlines of 3/4. Would anything change if the mainlines were 5/16 ?

All of these studies were under vacuum. If you used 5/16" lines as mainlines under those circumstances, the vacuum transfer would have been quite low. Under gravity, the results may well have ben quite different (and the setup would likely have been quite different too).

[spud]

[QUOTE=TerryEspo;197674]Hi Spud: Those tap holes that gave 5 GPT, would those holes still be good to use weeks later when the real season started ? If not, then would they re-tap all the trees ? Maybe they only tapped certain trees for the study and left them alone after the January test?

Interesting none the less.

Thanks.


Terry, PMRC tapped those trees in early January and used them for the whole season. They went on to get something like 32 GPT from those trees. If you go to their site (Proctor Maple Research Center) and click on to (Timing of Tapping) it will show all the charts and numbers. I think in 2006 they tapped on Jan 3rd and then in 2007 they tapped later in the month. In both years they went on to make over 6.5 GPT more then the trees they tapped in mid Feb. There is no ill affect to tapping a tree in January. You will see in their charts that sap production took a very small drop (at the end of the season) compared to the trees tapped in mid Feb but the overall amount of sap for the season was 6.5+ more per tap. With my size operation (6500 taps) that means I could (possibly) get another 30,000-40,000 gallons of sap if I tapped in January. What I am not saying is I will get that for sure. I am only saying that by tapping early you now are prepared for early sap runs (if) they happen to come. I cannot run out and tap my woods in a few hours if the weather man says the next 4 days will be in the high 40s with sun. My only hope is that by tapping early I might get lucky like PMRC did in 2006-2007 and make more money. We have all met people that have said (I sure wish I tapped earlier). The study has shown there is no ill effect to tapping in January (most big producers tap early January) and then go on to have very good seasons (weather permitting). And let us not forget that PMRC on average gets between .5-.6 GPT of syrup most every year for the last 7 years or so. I like to take advice from people that put out those kinds of numbers. There are others on Trader that have high GPT also that we can learn from. I would love to someday get between .5 and .6 and the way to do that is listen to those who are already doing it.

Spud

[TerryEspo]

Hi Spud:

With even a slight, slim chance of getting an extra 30-40K gallons.......I say, charge the cordless and gets your boots on !!

Hard to ignore those numbers if your running a business.

Thanks for explaining that to me, I will go read that article later.

Take care.

Terry

[220 maple]

Spring of 2011 I went to the equipment dealers open houses and seminars, If you remember they were held on April 15th and 16th that year. Slightly earlier than normal. I came to Swanton, Vermont on Thursday because I had brought my Amish equipment dealer so he could attend the dealers seminar that is held the day before the general publics seminars. After his meeting we rushed over to St. Albans, got our room and then we hit the countryside looking for sugaring operations, we had found out that many were still in full operation. The first one we visited was Branon Family Maple Orchard. As soon I walked thru the door I started asking questions, How many Taps? 72000. When did you start tapping? Jan.3rd. Did it thaw out during Janurary? Yes, We had a three day thaw sometime near the last week of the month. What did you do with that sap? We made syrup, 50 some barrels. Today is April the 14th and you are still making syrup? Yes, barrel 453 just came off the evaporator. What did you do to keep the tapholes open? Nothing. The same holes that were drilled in early Jan. is still producing? Yes. If you have done nothing to the tapholes then there is another answer. What has been the warmest temperture you have had since Jan. 3? It got of to 50 degrees one day.
That my friends is why the tapholes with good vacuum and near perfect weather can produce for three months. Also they did not use check valves that season.
Mark 220 Maple

[DrTimPerkins]

Today is April the 14th and you are still making syrup? Yes, barrel 453 just came off the evaporator.

2012 was an unusual season in some respects. The vast majority of producers in Vermont (except for those quite high in the hills or with normally cold bushes) that were still making syrup after March 20th were making buddy syrup.....in some cases, lots of it.

I think the major lesson here is that A) if you're on vacuum, B) if you use good sanitation practices (new spouts, new drops, or CV spouts), and C) if you capture and process any sap from every small (or large) early runs, then you're going to be probably OK tapping early in most seasons.

[GeneralStark]

2012 was an unusual season in some respects. The vast majority of producers in Vermont (except for those quite high in the hills or with normally cold bushes) that were still making syrup after March 20th were making buddy syrup.....in some cases, lots of it.

I think the major lesson here is that A) if you're on vacuum, B) if you use good sanitation practices (new spouts, new drops, or CV spouts), and C) if you capture and process any sap from every small (or large) early runs, then you're going to be probably OK tapping early in most seasons.

I believe he was talking about 2011 which was also a slightly unusual year in that deep snow was on the ground until mid april and many in northern vt produced until or past the dealer's open house weekend, which was earlier than usual in 2011.

[sjdoyon]

I believe he was talking about 2011 which was also a slightly unusual year in that deep snow was on the ground until mid april and many in northern vt produced until or past the dealer's open house weekend, which was earlier than usual in 2011.

Our last boil for 2012 was April 19th. As Dr. Perkins rightly stated, we are on a north facing slope, 1600ft elevation, high vacuum and use CVs. We encountered buddy tasting syrup end of March and following three weeks. We tapped 19/20/21 February and missed out on a few runs. We plan to tap end of Jan this year.

[DrTimPerkins]

I believe he was talking about 2011 which was also a slightly unusual year in that deep snow was on the ground until mid april and many in northern vt produced until or past the dealer's open house weekend, which was earlier than usual in 2011.

Thank you for pointing that out.....yes, 2011 was unusual in the opposite respect....very long season. The real issue there isn't whether the sap was still running (it probably was to some extent), but how much sap were you getting at that time compared to how much you could be getting. With normal spouts, sap flows will generally slow down sooner and stop earlier.