NH Maple producers....FDA registration

[red maples]

Hi all just want to see what NH producers have registered their sugarhouses to the FDA and thoughts on it. I haven't done it yet I will get it done right after x-mas. but just wanted to hear your thoughts.

[spencer11]

what do you have to do/need to register? i would like to but want to know what i need so i can get that before i do register

[red maples]

There is another thread with all that info in it and link to get to the registrations and stuff. I know I will need some stuff. From what I have read so far but it will be a little more invovles for the little guys.

[psparr]

In the other thread people were posting that if you weren't selling bulk, and only selling retail (direct to the customer) you don't need to register. Not sure if that's true or not.
Ps it's a government website so it won't be simple.

[spencer11]

In the other thread people were posting that if you weren't selling bulk, and only selling retail (direct to the customer) you don't need to register. Not sure if that's true or not.
Ps it's a government website so it won't be simple.
seems like it would be the oppisite, maybe not? but i would assume there would be more rules and registering needed to sell retail

[wcproctor]

Look at this post thin may help

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?17996-FDA-sugar-house-registration

[spencer11]

i read though the whole thing, i registered with them...i think anyway, it was really confusing. it also says that if you sell at least half your syrup retail, and make under a half million gross income per year you dont need to register, thats what i read in that thread anyway

[wcproctor]

i read though the whole thing, i registered with them...i think anyway, it was really confusing. it also says that if you sell at least half your syrup retail, and make under a half million gross income per year you dont need to register, thats what i read in that thread anyway
So you telling us your making more than a half a mill, I'm moving to NH 😃😃

[red maples]

Thats what I posted because thats what I thought. Its really not clear. I don't know.

The reason for the bulk producers HAVE to register is because they need a paper trail. if you sell direct to the consumer locally then its pretty easy to trace even if you don't know them. and e-commerce is even easier to trace.

I just have to sit down and read through it and try to figure out through all the wordy gov. BS.

Thats why I started this thread so I can see if I really need to do it or not its just not clear.
but thats they way things work at the Gov. level!!!

[spencer11]

So you telling us your making more than a half a mill, I'm moving to NH 😃😃
lol nooo, i sure wish though! it seems that if you make under half a million, you wouldnt need to register

red, isnt that the purpose of now having batch codes?

[red maples]

yeah.. they have reccomended the batch codes for years but with the FDA regs you pretty much have to have them. As far as I know Its also part of the legislature for the new grading system as well.

As far as the 1/2 mil. that was a quote from the maple news.

\\\

[spencer11]

this is the first year im doing batch codes, havent been big enough to need it before, so as long as you sell half your syrup retail you dont need the register with the fda?

[red maples]

I don't know!!! ????

[happy thoughts]

I don't know!!! ????

OMG no wonder people are confused. It's hard to find current info or at least info you can verify is current. A lot of stuff on the FDA site was written in 2004. Here's some info from the FDA that looks like it is current of this month. And if the following still confuses you then I suppose the FDA feels it's doing it's job :(.

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/GuidanceDocuments/FoodDefenseandEmergencyResponse/ucm331959.htm


9.14 Q: Are maple syrup producers “farms” and, thus, exempt from registering?
A: The response to this question depends upon the activities of the maple syrup producer. The activities of maple syrup producers customarily consist of two types: gathering sap from sugar maple trees and concentrating the sap through the application of heat to make syrup. Gathering sap is "harvesting," which is included in the definition of farm (21 CFR 1.227(b)). The “farm” is exempt from registration. However, concentrating sugar maple sap by heating is a form of manufacturing/processing (21 CFR 1.227(b)). Accordingly, a facility that concentrates sugar maple sap is performing a manufacturing/processing activity and is required to be registered, unless all of the concentrated sap is consumed on the farm or another farm under the same ownership.


15. Facility:

15.1 Q: [Added December 2012] If a person has a business in his or her home that involves manufacturing, processing, packing, or holding food, does that person need to register that private residence as a food facility?

A: No. A private residence is not a facility as defined in the Interim Final Rule (21 CFR 1.227(b)(2)). Thus, a private residence that meets customary expectations for a private residence that is also used to manufacture, process, pack, or hold food need not be registered. For examples, if a person uses their home to store food that is to be sold as a school activity or youth organization such as Girl Scouts or prepares food for a bake sale, FDA considers that these activities meet customary expectations for a private residence.

15.2 Q: [Added December 2012] If a person is selling food from his or her private residence through the Internet, does that person need to register his residence as a food facility?

A: No. A private residence from which a person also sells food through the Internet is not a facility as defined in 21 CFR 1.227(b)(2) and, thus, need not be registered.

15.3 Q: Most sugar makers in Massachusetts operate from their own property, on which their private residence is also located. Are these sugar makers required to register the facility that is on their property and used for sugar production?

A: Under 21 CFR 1.227(b)(2), a private residence is not a "facility" and thus, is not required to be registered. A private residence must meet customary expectations for a private home and does not otherwise include commercial facilities in which a person also happens to reside. A private residence includes the parcel of real property on which the residence is located. Accordingly, if the sugar production occurs in the private home or in a detached building that meets customary expectations for use as part of the private home, such as a detached garage that has not been modified for manufacturing and processing so that it can no longer practically be used as customary for a garage, the home or building would not have to be registered. If, however, a separate building located on the real property of the private residence site is used as a sugar manufacturing or processing facility and does not have a use as customarily expected for a private residence, that facility must be registered, unless that facility qualifies for another exemption (e.g., as a retail facility; 21 CFR 1.227(b)(11)).

here a link to the definitions under 21 CFR 1.227

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=1&showFR=1&subpartNode=21:1.0.1.1.1.6

So the way I read it, no exemptions exist for the amount of sales or where it is sold. If you collect and sell sap on a farm as defined under 21 CFR you don't have to register. But if you boil it down then you become a manufacturing/processing facility and have to register UNLESS...

you don't have a farm but collect sap at your private residence and process it there in your house or garage... (but, there's always a but).... as long as you can still use the garage as a garage. But if you have a sugarshack that you can't live in or park your car then you need to register. OY!

and another but..... if you sell your product only on the internet, then you don't have to register.

And we pay these people good money to do this to us, lol!

Oh well, Merry Christmas everyone:) Wishing you all the best!

[spencer11]

it makes some more sence now, and i dont think i have to register, cause i do it on my own property, and my "sugar house" is a portable garage and can still be used as one! but what if your selling bulk? do you still not need to register so they could track it back to you if needed?

[happy thoughts]

it makes some more sence now, and i dont think i have to register, cause i do it on my own property, and my "sugar house" is a portable garage and can still be used as one! but what if your selling bulk? do you still not need to register so they could track it back to you if needed?

Just because you own the property doesn't exclude it from being a farm. If you live on a "farm" as defined by law and process syrup there then I think you need to register. Does your property get any tax considerations for ag use? If so, then you're probably considered a farm.

As for bulk syrup sales, I haven't a clue but suspect you'd have to register if you live on a "farm" and not register if you're producing from a a private residence that is NOT considered a farm. If you're selling just sap then it looks like you don't have to register because you've only harvested sap, and have not processed it further into syrup.

Heck, this is so confusing we may have to hire a lawyer to explain it:)



Under the law ( see 21 CFR link above) a farm is defined as

(3)Farm means a facility in one general physical location devoted to the growing and harvesting of crops, the raising of animals (including seafood), or both. Washing, trimming of outer leaves of, and cooling produce are considered part of harvesting. The term "farm" includes:

(i) Facilities that pack or hold food, provided that all food used in such activities is grown, raised, or consumed on that farm or another farm under the same ownership; and

(ii) Facilities that manufacture/process food, provided that all food used in such activities is consumed on that farm or another farm under the same ownership.

[spencer11]

i wouldnt consiter my property a "farm", all i use it for is making syrup, so is that a "farm" then?

[happy thoughts]

and here's some more mumbo jumbo for you spencer, taken from the 2 fda page links I left before.... This is all starting to sound\ a lot like, "who's on first?:)

5.1 Q: [Added December 2012] How did FSMA clarify the definition of “retail food establishment?”
A: FSMA requires FDA to amend the definition of the term "retail food establishment" in 21 CFR 1.227(b) to clarify that, in determining the primary function of an establishment or a retail food establishment, the sale of food products directly to consumers by such establishment and the sale of food directly to consumers by such retail food establishment include:
• The sale of such food products or food directly to consumers by such establishment at a roadside stand or farmers' market where such stand or market is located other than where the food was manufactured or processed;
• The sale and distribution of such food through a community supported agriculture program; and
• The sale and distribution of such food at any other such direct sales platform as determined by FDA.


(11)Retail food establishment means an establishment that sells food products directly to consumers as its primary function. A retail food establishment may manufacture/process, pack, or hold food if the establishment's primary function is to sell from that establishment food, including food that it manufactures/processes, packs, or holds, directly to consumers. A retail food establishment's primary function is to sell food directly to consumers if the annual monetary value of sales of food products directly to consumers exceeds the annual monetary value of sales of food products to all other buyers. The term "consumers" does not include businesses. A "retail food establishment" includes grocery stores, convenience stores, and vending machine locations.

Sooooo... it sounds like if you sell from your farm property or a farm stand and sell directly to the consumer, then you're a retail establishment. But if you sell to a business then you need to register. I think that last might be where bulk syrup sales fall in if the buyer is a business. But honestly, contact your maple association for the best guidance ..... or hire a lawyer. If in doubt, I'd probably just register since it costs nothing... but that's assuming you're following all your own state laws and will not fall out on inspection once the FDA has you on their radar. In my state an outdoor set up won't fly and there are a bunch of other regulations you need to comply with including taking a food handling course.

If you don't register and should have, the FDA can stop you from selling what you have.

[happy thoughts]

i wouldnt consiter my property a "farm", all i use it for is making syrup, so is that a "farm" then?

Probably not if you're not taking any agricultural tax advantages or farm credits. But that's just my guess.

And spencer, are you still 15? If so, then I expect it's your parents that own the property. Ask them.

[spencer11]

yeah we dont have the property in use, or have any thing to do with farming, but yes im still 15 and yeah they own the property, ill ask and see if they understand any of this

[NH Maplemaker]

yeah we dont have the property in use, or have any thing to do with farming, but yes im still 15 and yeah they own the property, ill ask and see if they understand any of this
If they do,have them jump on here and help us out also. LOL

I had a call into Our NH maple inspector last week! When he called me back he said "the way we understand it. If you boil sap and make and sell syrup you must register" So I registered! Jim L.

[spencer11]

my parents said i probably wouldnt need to, im gonna ask bascoms when i go i a week or 2 to pick up some stuff, if i need to register to sell the my bulk syrup, they extended the registration to January 31, is that true?

[red maples]

Thanks Jim Thast the answer I was looking for I guess I should have just asked my inspector. I probably would have got the same answer from her. I guess this will be a good thing to bring up at the annual NHMPA meeting next month, which I haven't got any info on or the next eddition of the gathering tank yet? don't we usually have it by now?

[spencer11]

Has anyone found out if the FDA sends out someone to inspect the sugar house etc after you register? What should you have or update if you register to comply with the FDA standards? I assume I have the majority of what I will need to have

[NH Maplemaker]

From what the NH maple inspector told me on the phone! The way it is set up right now, The state inspectors are the ones doing the inspections! That is not to say that a federal inspector can not or will not show up if they want! As the story is being told it happened last year here in New Hampshire! But long story if you have been or you do pass the state inspection you are suppose to be fine!! That is at this particular second! I'm sure that will change!

[spencer11]

oh im sure it will change! ive never been big enough to need to be inspected, im also not part of the assoc but im going to join pretty soon and also register with the fda, do you just ask the assoc to have a inspector come out and check all my stuff before the season to make sue there is/isnt anything i need to change/replace?

[red maples]

pretty much Chris (the maple guys) got inspected. I talk to him at the maple school he said the inspector pretty much didn't really know anything about maple. they just saw that everything was food grade and more or less enjoyed the tour. So basically as long as you have a respectable, clean sugar house and aren't aren't using anything your not supposed to be using then your all set.

I am sure that will change when the rules are written, but we are OK "for now". But I am sure the changes will be coming down eventually. I guess it will be where they draw the line in the sand between packer, major bulk producer, small producer and hobby guy!!!

[spencer11]

so cast iron fittings arnt "food grade" i assume, ive got a couple that came with my evaporator but im replacing them with stainless. what about english tin, thats what my flue pan is made of, is that okay? ive seen people using them this past season so i assume it is fine

[red maples]

I don't know much about it. you might wanna change them out eventually but its pretty possible that its held together by led soder depending on how old it is. it is very important to NOT use an acid pan cleaner as it will remove the tin. and once your pan is sugared over your are all set to go.

I also don't think there is anything wrong with the cast iron fittings, you have cast iron pans right. the only thing is cleaning them properly and keeping them from rusting will be your probelm.

[NH Maplemaker]

spencer11, there isn't any connection between the maple association and the maple inspectors! The inspectors are part of the states AG department! If make and sell syrup, then they have the right by state law to inspect your operation! This is to make sure that light syrup is really light and syrup. that a GAL is a 128OZ. I have never had a bad experience
any of them! As a matter of fact I have always enjoy there visits! Not something to be afraid of, unlike FDA or USDA! But again if you are selling any amount of syrup at all! Your not to small to be inspected.

[spencer11]

I did a test last night and they are lead soldered, but they are in very good shape for the year, I'm sure once the word gets out I'm selling a lot I will be inspected. And I do plan to switch the pans out in about 2 years when I have the money to

[red maples]

spencer11, there isn't any connection between the maple association and the maple inspectors! The inspectors are part of the states AG department! If make and sell syrup, then they have the right by state law to inspect your operation! This is to make sure that light syrup is really light and syrup. that a GAL is a 128OZ. I have never had a bad experience
any of them! As a matter of fact I have always enjoy there visits! Not something to be afraid of, unlike FDA or USDA! But again if you are selling any amount of syrup at all! Your not to small to be inspected.

Very true they are all very nice. They can give a few pointers as far as your finished product goes. They are there to help you. no worries. They are usually at the annual meeting for the Assoc. as wellas the regional meeting testing Hydros and stuff. and just there to answer questions the best they can. Some of them are still learning as well. but they are evolving with the changes as we are.