GPH and sizing an RO

[Cider Hill Maple Farm]

Ok folks please help me figure this out! I have a 3' x 12' oil fired, raised flue Small Brothers evap. w/hood and pre-heat along with air injection. I have yet to fire this creature but time is winding down. When I made the purchase I was told that it would chew through 175 gals. an hour at peek. I am looking to build an RO for this and need to know how big or how many membranes I need to feed this thing. I have spoken to a few RO manufactures about this and they're pretty tight lipped. So the ball is in the court of you who own and operate these. I have all the pieces to the puzzle but the membranes, I don't really want to spend the coin to screw up this late in the game. If anyone can help please don't hesitate to PM me if you have idea's you don't care to share. Thanks in advance!!

[Thad Blaisdell]

3x12, what size flue pan, the listing for a base 3x12 with 9 foot flue is 115 gph, with hood and preheater might make it to 126, never going to make it to 175 that is for sure.

Number of taps, 120? if so you better go small on the ro, maybe 1 small membrane, problem being you are not going to create enough permeate to wash anything else. Now the second problem is you are only going to boil for an hour as it is, How much sap will be left after you get done fireing it up.

[Cider Hill Maple Farm]

The flue pan is 3x8. 1,500+ for 13'. I have a supplier for sap as well, he brings me around 500 gals. a day. let me go on further 1,000 gal. storage tank, 300 gal. permeate tank, 300 gal. gravity feed tank for evap., 18' x 40' new sugarshack, 8' x 10' RO room without an RO. The operation has grown.

Hope this explains a little more!

Shawn,

[mapleack]

Just for curiosity what arch is under your rig? A new Lapierre Turbo 3 3'x11' is rated at 180 gph so yeah it's possible. You're going to need at least a 600gph RO to run with that. If you have a day job like me and only boil at night you need to decide how many hours you want to boil. Then guess what your biggest sap day will be, divded by boiling hours = how many gallons per hour you want rid of. Say 3,500 gal of sap or more on a good day, divided by 5 hours would mean 700 gph. Standard 600 gph RO's have one 8" membrane and usually a 5hp high pressure pump. If you're homebuilding and won't have recirculation I'd say you need to look at two 8" membranes and a 7.5hp high pressure pump. Depending on your design and pressures you could run over 1,000 gph, at least until the membranes plug up. You going to need a bigger permeate tank as well, shoot for at least as many gallons as you figure your RO will process per hour, the more the better.

[gmcooper]

CedarHill,
I think you could get along with 600gph RO as you are likely to get 150 gph max out of the evaporator. 600 gph RO will get you 150 gph concentrate. From your info you have a 300 gal permeate tank. I would really recommend you go with at least 600 gal perm minimum and the more the better.
Mark

[sapman]

I agree about a bigger permeate tank. I've always heard minimum 1 gal/gph that the ro is rated for. Hence, at least 600 gal. for a 600gph machine.

I run a 600 gph ro, but realistically get 4-500 gph through it. And if I want higher than 6-8% concentrate, there's no way it keeps up with my evaporator, which does about 100gph.

[wiam]

I have about 500 gallons of permeate storage. I like extra for low flow days, I can still do a full wash if I want

[maple connection]

I agree with the larger perm. tank. 600 gallon would be better 1000 would be great. I would recommend the lapierre 600 gph R.O. expandable unit. This unit comes with 1 8" membrane and in the future you can buy another post and the machine is already wire for the extra membrane. If you get a 600 gph machine when you do a rinse you want to send at the minimum 1/2 the gallon gph threw the machine. The more you can rinse the happier you will make your membrane. As for membranes you will have to decide if a single pass to take out 50% water is what your after. If so use a nf 270 if your looking to r.o. to a higher than 7 brix I would use a nf 90-400 or mark1 or mark E8. Good luck.

[Cider Hill Maple Farm]

Hey guys been away for a bit. Thanks for the input! I have a few questions to answer. Andy, the arch is custom built buy the previous owner. It's what you would call a convertible, it can be changed from wood fired to oil fired. It would be a pain in the butt to change over, but I bought the whole kit and caboodle. I'm going to leave it on oil to make it easier for everyone. Ok I'm getting back to the RO, as far as the permeate tank size that's the least of my problems. I needed to know the number and size of the membranes for my operation. If I use one 8x40 that will get me around 600 or two 4x40 for the same amount? Sorry guys if I seem short, I appreciate the input. HAVE A WONDERFUL HOLIDAY

Shawn,

[maple connection]

IT will actually take 4 4" x 40 membranes to do the same work as one 8x40 membrane.

[maple connection]

If you start with 2.5 to 3 brix on your sap you can tighten the r.o. down to match the production of your evaporator. which my best guess would be sap going into your evaporator @ about 8 to 9 brix @ around your 175gph.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

We have a 8" by 40" Mark E8 and the pump is 5hp. We average about 90 gallons of 7.5% per hour with about 2% raw sap going in.

[Cider Hill Maple Farm]

What are you guys running for press?According to the XLE-440 specs. at 100psi the permeate flow is 12,700 gpd, so if I figured this out right you get around 264.5 gals. of concentrate per hour with one pass. Would this be correct?

[mellondome]

Cider Hill,

You need to compensate for temperature. The factory flow rates are based on 77 deg F.

[1hardmaple]

Can I use a regular household ro system for sap?thanks for any help

[not_for_sale]

Yes. Look for my Flux compensator thread in the Home Made equipment forum.

[PerryFamily]

Used my new to me waterloo NF 270 RO for the first time. Seems to be working correctly other than a few things (maybe) ?

My sap was between 1.5 and 2%. On a single pass I was only able to get 5-6% max. My needle valve to control recirculation ( concentration level ) was screwed all the way in ( max concentration i assume ?), and the pressure was maxed at 500psi to achieve this.

Question: Is this just a math issue because of the low initial sugar content? Or a membrane issue? Or not an issue at all?

I just ran it 2 passes and made 9% in the end.

I am measuring sugar content with a sap hydrometer which is a little difficult to get a accurate reading. I plan on getting a refractometer soon. It was processing at 13 GPM, 7 GPM perm, 6 GPM concentrate.

The end result is nicely concentrated sap, just thought I could get to 8% in one pass.

[PerryFamily]

Used my new to me waterloo NF 270 RO for the first time. Seems to be working correctly other than a few things (maybe) ?

My sap was between 1.5 and 2%. On a single pass I was only able to get 5-6% max. My needle valve to control recirculation ( concentration level ) was screwed all the way in ( max concentration i assume ?), and the pressure was maxed at 500psi to achieve this.

Question: Is this just a math issue because of the low initial sugar content? Or a membrane issue? Or not an issue at all?

I just ran it 2 passes and made 9% in the end.

I am measuring sugar content with a sap hydrometer which is a little difficult to get a accurate reading. I plan on getting a refractometer soon. It was processing at 13 GPM, 7 GPM perm, 6 GPM concentrate.

The end result is nicely concentrated sap, just thought I could get to 8% in one pass.

SORRY, I MEANT TO BE A NEW POST, NOT SMART ENOUGH TO SWITCH