Siphoning between pans

[Pibster]

I have seen pictures of a siphon used to automatically transfer sap from one pan to the other. It looks like an upside down u-shaped piece of pipe with a small valve on top, once the siphon is primed it will automatically level the sap in the pans. It looks simple but I cannot tell what the valve is or does on the top. The valve must have something to do with priming it. Can someone tell me how to make one?

[Pibster]

I just found an old thread explaining it.
My grandfather had one of those and the fitting in the middle was for sucking the sap up into the tube. When you sucked the sap into your mouth it ment it was full and you would then shut the small valve off (some had a check valve)and it would siphon fron one section to the next. It wasn't bad to do when it was cold but they would quite often lose prime during the boil and somebody would have to fill the tube again. Do I need to tell the rest of the story. There would be alot of burnt lips around our sugarhouse by the end of the season.

[maplesyrupstove]

You could hold a 2 foot piece of tubing on the valve,then you would not burn your lips. Darrell

[Mark]

I have seen an old evaporator with siphons operating. The bottoms on each side had a copper cap that is larger than the pipe soldered on the bottom of each side leaving a a narrower opening. That would keep the water from running out when filling. You would put it in a bucket of sap and open the valve then close. No burnt lips.

[madtrapper]

I have been looking into this same thing. got one made but i need to get a valve for the middle as it wont keep prime at all with out it. if anyone gets one made and working could you post a picture or to and dimentions

[Shepp]

I have been looking into this same thing. got one made but i need to get a valve for the middle as it wont keep prime at all with out it. if anyone gets one made and working could you post a picture or to and dimentions

I remember my dad had old style pans with syphons between each one. They sat in little cups on the side of the pans so the sap wouldnt boil in them and break the syphon. Last year I saw a post on this forum from someone who made his own from copper pipe. I have a setup with restaurant pans and I thought this would be ideal instead of scooping sap from one pan to the next. They worked great except for the one in the final syrup pan where the boil was the hardest. It kept losing the syphon and I would have to lean over the boiling sap and suck on the tube to get the syphon happening and yes I did burn my lips once. I think this year I will try wrapping 1/4" copper tubing around the "legs" of the syphon and run cold sap through the tubing to cool the sap in the syphon. The tubing will then run to the first pan and act as a preheater. I have a float made of copper tubing and a restaurant pan. I found that idea on You Tube under "home made float valve for maple syrup" One other thing. The 5/16 sap line on top of the syphons which you suck on to get the sap flowing kept melting. This year I will use silicone tubing which is heat proof and food grade if you get it from a beer brewing equipment supplier. I think one of those manual vacuum pumps for brake line bleeding would work better then sucking on the tube as well. $24 dollars at harbor freight. I used 3/4" copper pipe and soldered a 2" copper end cap to the bottom with a small gap between the bottom and the "leg" of the syphon. The valve on top for the sucktion tube is called a "Pet Cock Valve" it is made of brass and they sell them at most plumbing supply stores. It is soldered onto a 3/4" T that has a 1/2' reducer on one side. I would just take the picture into the store and show them what you are trying to do. Any how here are the pics.620362046205

[buck3m]

We used to siphon between the pans, with two "U"s of copper tubing between each pan, trying to place them in corners where there was no boil. They would eventually lose siphon so we had to keep an eye on them but other than that it worked pretty well. There are some good improvements on that idea mentioned above.

[wiam]

I have heard you can open the valve dunk the tube in a bucket of sap, close the valve when saps comes out valve and put it back in pans.

[G-Unit]

I use a siphon between all my pans and they work very well. Make sure you have cups or something underneath the siphons to stop any bubbles from going up the tube because it will stop the siphon for sure. I attach a one foot section of 5/16 sap line to the Pet Cock Valve, which is then attached to a new unused outboard motor fuel primer bulb. All you need to do is squeeze the bulb to fill the siphon. It works as a one way valve and fills the siphon nicely. Once the siphon is filled, I shut the valve on the siphon, disconnect it from the siphon, and drain the primer bulb outside the pan. Works good and no burned lips. Hope this helps.

[Pibster]

Now that sounds like the way to go. I didn't understand the need to block the bottoms of the pipe, now I do.
Thanks

[ennismaple]

I lost 5 lbs one week because I burned my mouth and lips so bad trying to get the siphon going again before I burned the finishing pan. I did get some great prescription drugs for the pain that made days disappear! I don't miss that siphon...

[wiam]

Now that sounds like the way to go. I didn't understand the need to block the bottoms of the pipe, now I do.
Thanks

My understanding was the cover on the bottom was so that you could open the petcock on top, dunk the tube in a bucket of sap/water, close the petcock and it would then keep sap/water from running out when it was moved back to the pans.

Realize that I have never used one and this was from a guy that tried to sell me this style pan.

[Pibster]

Make sure you have cups or something underneath the siphons to stop any bubbles from going up the tube because it will stop the siphon for sure.

This is why you need cups.

[AustinHills]

I'm definitely interested in this idea, but have a couple of questions:

Has anyone tried using two 90 deg elbows to form an upturned 'U' instead of a cup? Seems like it should work the same and is easier to solder.

Also, do you let it rest on the bottom of the pans? I am wondering if it makes more sense to keep it suspended so the sap in the cup doesn't boil and break the syphon.

[Shepp]

I'm definitely interested in this idea, but have a couple of questions:

Has anyone tried using two 90 deg elbows to form an upturned 'U' instead of a cup? Seems like it should work the same and is easier to solder.

Also, do you let it rest on the bottom of the pans? I am wondering if it makes more sense to keep it suspended so the sap in the cup doesn't boil and break the syphon.

In order for the syphon to work, the end of both legs need to be submerged or at least one of the legs. The elbows on the ends of the syphon would probably work, but as soon as the sap dropped below the elbow which I would guess to be 1.5 inches the syphon would quit.

[wiam]

I think if one leg is not submerged air would get in and stop the siphon.

[AustinHills]

Good point about the elbow height. I suppose the upturned elbow could be cut down but by the time you do that the soldering of an end cap starts to look good.

[Treetapper]

6331
This is an example of one from back in the day from the Ontario Maple Syrup Museum in St Jacobs Ontario.

[ennismaple]

6331
This is an example of one from back in the day from the Ontario Maple Syrup Museum in St Jacobs Ontario.

I hope we didn't throw ours out - it was even older than that one! We used it until 2009.

[happy thoughts]

6331
This is an example of one from back in the day from the Ontario Maple Syrup Museum in St Jacobs Ontario.

This is such an interesting idea. Thanks to those who've left pictures and instructions. Before I attempt making some, does anyone know if ready made siphons like the old ones are still available? And if so, where can we get them?

[maple island farms]

I had no idea these were still in use. I have a old version in my collection and i have always thought it could be painful the first few times.

[Big_Eddy]

See post #4 in this thread for a recent one
http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?18300-New-to-this-looking-for-some-help.

[MapleLady]

This sounds like a great idea and would certainly save a lot of scooping between pans. I am considering making a couple of these this weekend to siphon between 3 steam table pans on my block arch evaporator. At the price of copper, not sure I want to 'dive in' without a little more reassurance.... Has anyone had a chance to try this so far this year? How is it working?

[deckers007]

I use the siphons but with out the valve, you can just dunk in in the sap and fill it up, then pick it up straight. Also the trick is to keep them off the bottom of the pan, this prevents air bubbles from forming in the cup at the bottom. The second picture shows an adjustable hol I made to keep them off the bottom.

68096810

[MapleLady]

I use the siphons but with out the valve, you can just dunk in in the sap and fill it up, then pick it up straight. Also the trick is to keep them off the bottom of the pan, this prevents air bubbles from forming in the cup at the bottom. The second picture shows an adjustable hol I made to keep them off the bottom.

68096810

Definitely want to give this design a try!

[CTsugarMan]

Can someone explain what the siphon is for and the benefit....2nd yr at this, all home made equipment. Thanks

[CTsugarMan]

I use the siphons but with out the valve, you can just dunk in in the sap and fill it up, then pick it up straight. Also the trick is to keep them off the bottom of the pan, this prevents air bubbles from forming in the cup at the bottom. The second picture shows an adjustable hol I made to keep them off the bottom.

68096810

Great setup, any idea where I could get plans to build one like that?

[Mogli]

Now how do you dunk the siphon to prime it. Do you submerge the both sides in one pan and then lift a end over the edge. Still a little lost on how to prime these without a valve. Thanks for the pictures on the rest to hold them from touching bottom.


I use the siphons but with out the valve, you can just dunk in in the sap and fill it up, then pick it up straight. Also the trick is to keep them off the bottom of the pan, this prevents air bubbles from forming in the cup at the bottom. The second picture shows an adjustable hol I made to keep them off the bottom.

68096810

[deckers007]

Now how do you dunk the siphon to prime it. Do you submerge the both sides in one pan and then lift a end over the edge. Still a little lost on how to prime these without a valve. Thanks for the pictures on the rest to hold them from touching bottom.

Mogli, if the caps are attached to the end properly you lift it out like a upside down "U". The caps will prevent air from going up the tube.

Funny, I did not know this theory worked until I happen to be washing them in the sink, lifted one out and it remained full, you do have to keep it level though, otherwise it will drain.

I made this video when I was testing it in the kitchen.

http://youtu.be/K8IhHZNVPII

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[kytepc]

I tried this a few years back and found that boiling sap vapors will enter the tubes and break the vacuum between pans even with the blockers or return bends any flow will suck up the vapors it will work for awhile but do not leave unattended. It was more of a pain with burns than what it was worth

[deckers007]

I tried this a few years back and found that boiling sap vapors will enter the tubes and break the vacuum between pans even with the blockers or return bends any flow will suck up the vapors it will work for awhile but do not leave unattended. It was more of a pain with burns than what it was worth

Kytepc, where you keeping the tubes from touching the bottom of the pans? I ran a 2 hour test boil without loosing siphon. Not sure how long it will hold once we start boiling sap, but even if I loose siphon after 2 hours, it beats ladling. It only take 5 seconds to reset the siphon.

[Mogli]

When soldering on the cups how large of a gap did you leave between the pipe end and base of the cup. Thanks for the video definitely cleared up my previous questions.

[deckers007]

I would leave about 1/4 - 3/8 of an inch.

[Mogli]

thanks, this will definitely help out this year, my g/f hated having to ladle from pan to pan.

I would leave about 1/4 - 3/8 of an inch.

[deckers007]

Let me know how you made out at the end of the season.

[mnmaple]

I am running a 3 pan setup this year on a homemade wood fired oil tank arch. Previous years I have just had a single pan on propane burner that I kept adding sap to till I was done or out of sap.

Just trying to clear up some confusion I have with the siphons. Assuming they stay primed, as you add more sap to the back pan, the new sap with a lower sugar % will displace the higher sugar % sap in the back pan and move it to the next pan and so on down the line with each pan having a higher % sugar content than the last. When you pull finished syrup (or close to it) off the front pan, will this pull from the previous pan to replace its lost volume and back up down the line?

With this setup, do you just have to watch to make sure each pan stays the same depth as the next? If its not, do you just need to re-prime the siphon to even them out.

Lastly, assuming all the above is true, is the tricky part getting your feed rate correct of fresh sap to make the system work well?

[CampHamp]

Yes - as you move further away from your incoming sap feed, you get higher concentrate. All pans will stay at the same level, if you have a level arch (note: if you hang your final pan lower than the others, it will have more depth).

Siphons sometimes stop working, so I would check by putting my 1" ladle down in each pan every 10 mins and make sure it would fill up - sometimes it got too steamy to judge depth just by sight.

Yes - keeping the correct flow rate (and feeding the fire) are your main tasks. Ending your boil was the hardest part for me because I would pour the last pan to the middle pan and add water to the back pan and put it back into place (without a siphon) then after a while, pour the middle one forward, etc until you pour off the last pan into a pot for finishing.

Suggestions: 1) Keep a few gallons of sap near the arch so that you can scoop some in if levels get too low, 2) put your siphons on opposite sides of the pan so that the distance to the next siphon is as far as possible (diagonally across the pan), 3) the fire should be very low when you pull pans off the arch, esp as you work the front pan, and 4) if it's below freezing, careful your feed line doesn't freeze up.

Have fun!

[Kilroy]

Hi all, new guy here that will be trying a block arch with steam table pans this coming spring. Trying to start small & affordable, then we'll see what happens after a few seasons.
Is the objective here to just eliminate handling of the pans, or move from batch processing more to a continuous flow process?
I'll likely add handles to my pans, and process in batch mode... then finish in a turkey fryer. But I do find this siphoning process intriguing.
Interested in reading more thoughts and/or experiences with this setup.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

I'll likely add handles to my pans, and process in batch mode... then finish in a turkey fryer. But I do find this siphoning process intriguing.
Interested in reading more thoughts and/or experiences with this setup.

My first year I used 3 steam pans (my front pan was 4"), with siphon pipes. I used 1/2 inch copper with 1" caps on the bottom to alleviate the vapor trap issue, but they still need to be dunked in water or sap periodically. I still liked to ladle it into the next pan some anyway. Handles are nearly a must, and I did not have any. Only the front pan is really the one you need it on, as that is your finishing pan. Finishing, really cannot be done on the evaporator though. I tried, and it was a bitch. I would boil it down a little heavy, and then finish it in a finishing pot, and add water to get the desired brix.
You can see them in action here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wBc7CQGscA&list=UU6pZlOFLvLs8Uz0ZPymrmlg

[NhShaun]

Never saw anyone doing that but i like the idea! Looks like it works fairly well in the video too.

[Kilroy]

Excellent video, thanks!
Shouldn't be too costly to fab up & try out with 3 or 4 pans.