Hobby RO sizing

[nymapleguy607]

Hey everyone,

So I've been debating about adding an ro to my operation to cut down a little on boiling time and free up time for checking stuff in the woods. I see Ray Gingerich is advertising a hobby size ro that will do around 75GPH. I'm hoping to add up to another 100 taps putting me right around 300. I would like to be able to collect from my big woods and start that through the ro then go collect from the other areas and start boiling an hour or so later. Do you think this ro would be enough or should I look at the bigger 125gph unit? The big woods has around 200 taps and hopefully i'll have high vac on those trees. The others would be gravity. Also what would I need besides a permiate tank? Thanks for any help you can give me.

[Bucket Head]

Hi Jeff,

Any RO is going to help out- whatever water it removes is that much less you have to boil. However, I'd lean towards the larger unit, seeing you want to add taps. Their just like evaporators- you can probably get by with a smaller one, but you'll be happier with a little bigger one.

The other thing to think about is the output of these smaller machines. I don't know much about them, but some only take sap up to 4% on a single pass. Maybe a used machine could be found for a similar amount of money, that would have better numbers than the new one? Two years ago I bought a used Airablo machine that does right around 200gal. per hour and it takes the sap up to 8% on a single pass. I guess you'll have to try and figure how long a machine will take to process the sap to whatever % its capable of, versus the time you have to boil and try to gauge it that way.

Steve

[nymapleguy607]

Steve,

What are your typical sap runs like? I generally get 180-250 gals a day, I would like the larger unit but I don't know if I would have enough permiate water to do a wash or rinse. How much do you usually use to clean your ro?

Thanks

[maple flats]

If you can swing it, go for Ray's 125. If not get the 75. When you outgrow the 75 it will be very easy to sell.
I have a 250 by Ray, love it! I plan to sell it after 2013 season to get a 500 and I have had several producers ask about buying it already.
Any RO will speed up your boil time. At 75 GPH you will get about 18-19 gal of concentrate per hr at the rated capacity. I got the rated capacity on mine when concentrating to 8%.
Good luck!

[maple flats]

You also need a heated room. Once the RO has been used the membranes must be kept from freezing. Can you keep the RO in a heated area you already have?

[nymapleguy607]

Dave,

How much permiate is used when you do your wash and rinse cycle? I would like the bigger ro but I wonder if i would have enough permiate to clean the membrane properly. I'm planning on building an insulated room in the saphouse to keep the ro and maybe use a heat lamp during the season, then in summer and early winter keep them in the basement. Do you concentrate to 8% on a single pass? I'm hoping I could go to 8% and maybe higher if i needed to, I'd recirculate to go higher than 8%.

[Bucket Head]

Jeff,

Trying to figure out all the variables with RO's is fun, huh? My sap runs are like yours, for the most part. But what my machine likes and what the machine you buy will like are probably two different things. I will only rinse, sending all the permiate back through it, keeping track of the hours of usage, and then when its wash time, I save some water for the wash/rinse. Now with that said, my runs don't come close to what this machine can handle. So I'm not taxing this machine at all- hours wise. I have not had any performance drop off's (membrane fouling) doing it this way. If I had more taps and ran this thing for hours and hours, things would be different. What are the rinse/wash reccomendations for the one your looking at? Does it have recirculation capability? How many hours use before a rinse? Generally, however many gallons the unit is rated for is the same number of gallons of permiate your supposed to send through it for a rinse/rinse after wash. Some units reccomend a certain number of minutes worth of rinsing after however many hours of use. If thats the case with yours, without knowing what the pump flows, you'd have no idea on how many gallons to send through it. (I know mine pumps a lot of water per minute on a rinse. The first time I ever rinsed it, it emptied my permiate tank before the timer on the machine said it was done! So you have to manage permiate usage when you don't have a lot of it.)

Like I said, what I do with this machine and what you may have to do are going to be different. Try and find others who have the machines your looking at. Ask them how they do it. How many taps do they have? Do they boil every day or do they hold sap a day inorder to have enough to rinse/wash with? How long do they go before performance drops off and a rinse needs to be done?

I would think you would be fine with the larger one, even with smaller runs, with good permiate management. Get a tank(s) that can hold every drop of permiate you make. That way on big runs, you can probably rinse well enough and still have a little left over. Two or three decent runs in a row? Do the same thing, now you have some extra permiate on hand for a wash/rinse. Most, if not all RO makers by now, stress that rinsing is more important than washing. Talk to others and see what they have to say. Everybody's sugaring operation is not the same, but comparing others results will give a good idea of what you need to do in regards to those machines.

Steve

[Thad Blaisdell]

Build one and save 1000s of dollars. Plenty of info on that as well.

[mapleack]

You're not going to build one cheaper than Ray Gingerich's if you value your time at all. They don't have much for automation and wouldn't work for me, but I was impressed with their apparent quality and Ray's demeanor. If you want a cheap, non automated, basic RO to get a taste for concentrate so to speak, go for it.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Of course you can build them cheaper...for about 1000-1200$ you can build a 2 post 4 inch membrane machine, its been done and there are plans out there to do it. But if you want to buy one all made the by all means go for it.

[nymapleguy607]

Thanks everyone for the advice, I plan on talking to Ray at Verona conference and see what he recommends as far as cleaning intervals and small runs.

[Bucket Head]

There's nothing wrong with building your own equipment. I've built a lot of mine, and I was ready to build a small RO a couple years ago. I had researched it, talked to a ton of folks about every component, had a list of parts and sources- I was ready. Then on the same day I was going to order parts, I heard of a small RO being sold locally, for not much more money than what I was going to spend. I had to think hard and fast, "Do I want to be an RO designer and builder (and trouble shooter too...) or do I want to be a sugarmaker?" I decided I wanted to spend my time making syrup and not trying to figure out how to run a homemade RO while the sap is running over the top of the tanks. As mentioned earlier, if you have the time for it, great. I wish I had more time for that sort of thing, but I don't. Many folks don't, and the inexpensive RO's out there (with instructions and recomendations for use and cleaning) have been a blessing to them.

Steve

Steve