replacing drops

[philkasza]

How do many people replace their drops? Do you use the tubing tool to push the new taps on after you cut the old one off OR do you just push the taps in by hand. We have lap. ellbow seasons. Sam

[GeneralStark]

Not sure what you are asking here. Replacing drops, or replacing spouts? To replace drops, I use a short length of 1/4" cord and tie two clove hitches, one on either side of the drop and around the lateral, to "tension" the lateral. Then I cut out the drop on either side of the T. Then I install a new drop with a one-hand tubing tool and finally remove the cord.

I use seasonal spouts and cut off the spout right at its edge and plug the drop on the T at the end of the season. Then when tapping I drive the spout and put the drop on by hand.

I think of a "drop" as being a T with a length of 5/16" tubing (desired length). I don't put spouts on until tapping as it is one more thing for the squirrels and porcupines to destroy, though some consider a drop to include a spout.

[TunbridgeDave]

I've debated that question for years. For the last 4 years I've gone to sesonal spouts. I use the cdl smart spout. The whole idea of being able to just push the tubing onto it was brilliant. This season I'm taking it a step further. I bought a whole bunch of cdl Quick Tee's that use the same idea. You still have the regular barbs for the lateral lines but the drop line pushes on by hand just like with the spout. There's no tension on the drop line so you don't need the barbs. This gives you the option of replacing the drop every year without having to replace the tee or trying to cut it off. I've even thought of just washing the drop lines and putting them back. There's always a few that don't come clean when rinsing the lines. I had to special order them through Bascoms because they weren't stocking them, for some reason. This was a brand new product in this years CDL catalog.

[DrTimPerkins]

Typically people who use seasonal spouts (without Stubbys) push them on to the end of the tubing by hand, although some do use a tubing tool to put them on the drop first and then tap them. Depends upon what spout you're using. With the early types of straight-through spouts you had to put them in the tree first, then push on the tubing. Very simple design, but difficult or impossible to reseat them if they leaked. Most people just clip them off at the end of the season or the next year when tapping. Almost impossible to pull them off some types of tubing....takes too much time and energy to do that.

In terms of economics of spout replacement. Cost of replacing spouts each year is about $0.15-0.20 depending upon what you use. If you do this EVERY year, you can expect that you're getting about 10% more than you would if the spouts were left there for a 2nd year, so you're getting about 1-2 gal of sap extra, worth about $0.50-1.00 (depending upon the value of sap.....this assumes $0.50 per gal). Net profit is thus $0.30-0.85 per tap.

Replace spouts each year. $0.15-0.20 for the spout. $0.30 for the tubing (3' drop lines). We'll just ignore the initial cost of the tee to make it simple. You can expect about 15-20% more sap when you replace drops each year. Going through the calculations, you get around 2-3 gal more sap, worth $1.00-$1.50. Net profit is thus $0.50-$1.05 per tap MINUS the cost of labor to put the drops together, carry them out into the woods, and installing them. Most people who have more than a few hundred taps aren't going to bother replacing all of them every year.

Use CV each year. $0.35-0.40 each. Get pretty much the same results as a new drop....but for the sake of argument, we'll knock it back a little to 15-18% increase. That means 2-2.7 gal more sap, worth $1.00-$1.35. Net profit is $0.60-$1.00 per tap, but without the labor involved in replacing drops.

[GeneralStark]

Typically people who use seasonal spouts (without Stubbys) push them on to the end of the tubing by hand, although some do use a tubing tool to put them on the drop first and then tap them. Depends upon what spout you're using. With the early types of straight-through spouts you had to put them in the tree first, then push on the tubing. Very simple design, but difficult or impossible to reseat them if they leaked. Most people just clip them off at the end of the season or the next year when tapping. Almost impossible to pull them off some types of tubing....takes too much time and energy to do that.

In terms of economics of spout replacement. Cost of replacing spouts each year is about $0.15-0.20 depending upon what you use. If you do this EVERY year, you can expect that you're getting about 10% more than you would if the spouts were left there for a 2nd year, so you're getting about 1-2 gal of sap extra, worth about $0.50-1.00 (depending upon the value of sap.....this assumes $0.50 per gal). Net profit is thus $0.30-0.85 per tap.

Replace spouts each year. $0.15-0.20 for the spout. $0.30 for the tubing (3' drop lines). We'll just ignore the initial cost of the tee to make it simple. You can expect about 15-20% more sap when you replace drops each year. Going through the calculations, you get around 2-3 gal more sap, worth $1.00-$1.50. Net profit is thus $0.50-$1.05 per tap MINUS the cost of labor to put the drops together, carry them out into the woods, and installing them. Most people who have more than a few hundred taps aren't going to bother replacing all of them every year.

Use CV each year. $0.35-0.40 each. Get pretty much the same results as a new drop....but for the sake of argument, we'll knock it back a little to 15-18% increase. That means 2-2.7 gal more sap, worth $1.00-$1.35. Net profit is $0.60-$1.00 per tap, but without the labor involved in replacing drops.

So are you saying that changing the drop/spout every year is more economical than using CVs?

[DrTimPerkins]

No, I don't believe that is what I said, particularly if you include your time.

[ennismaple]

So are you saying that changing the drop/spout every year is more economical than using CVs?

Given the range of profits per tap quoted by Dr Tim I read his statement to be that using CV's is comparable to replacing the droplines each year - without the extra labour. For someone with your number of taps replacing droplines each year be worthwhile but we have more than 10x the taps you have and I'd rather spend a bit more on the spout and save a week's worth of labour.

[spud]

I've debated that question for years. For the last 4 years I've gone to sesonal spouts. I use the cdl smart spout. The whole idea of being able to just push the tubing onto it was brilliant. This season I'm taking it a step further. I bought a whole bunch of cdl Quick Tee's that use the same idea. You still have the regular barbs for the lateral lines but the drop line pushes on by hand just like with the spout. There's no tension on the drop line so you don't need the barbs. This gives you the option of replacing the drop every year without having to replace the tee or trying to cut it off. I've even thought of just washing the drop lines and putting them back. There's always a few that don't come clean when rinsing the lines. I had to special order them through Bascoms because they weren't stocking them, for some reason. This was a brand new product in this years CDL catalog.

For me I would not use the Quick Tee. You still will have to cut your drop off the Tee because it will not pull off. By making that cut you may nick the tee just a little bit and cause a future vacuum leak.

Spud

[TunbridgeDave]

Spud, I tested out a few of these tees and with the 30p you can pull the tubing off just like with the spouts. The only stuff I had trouble with is the memory flex tubing.

[GeneralStark]

Given the range of profits per tap quoted by Dr Tim I read his statement to be that using CV's is comparable to replacing the droplines each year - without the extra labour. For someone with your number of taps replacing droplines each year be worthwhile but we have more than 10x the taps you have and I'd rather spend a bit more on the spout and save a week's worth of labour.

I hear ya. Everyone's situation is different and certainly what works for small producers may not work for large or vice versa. That said, I know a producer in the area with 15,000 taps that uses seasonal spouts and changes drops every 2 years, though they do half every year. They change the drops as they are tapping so I guess it they see it as worthwhile to take the time.

I think Dr. Tim actually said that changing the drop every year is slightly more productive(sap yields) than using cv's and that seems to be what most studies suggest.

[DrTimPerkins]

For me I would not use the Quick Tee. You still will have to cut your drop off the Tee because it will not pull off. By making that cut you may nick the tee just a little bit and cause a future vacuum leak.

If you do find that you have to replace the Quick Tee each year (which is the way the system is designed), then it's about an extra $0.20 (don't have my CDL catalog handy, so not positive on the price...it is about $0.45 for both sides), which drops the next profit on replacing drops down to $0.30-0.85 per tap, minus the extra labor involved. Replacing drops will get you marginally more sap than using CVs, but the economics aren't any better, and are not favorable if/when you add in the cost of labor.

[DrTimPerkins]

Spud, I tested out a few of these tees and with the 30p you can pull the tubing off just like with the spouts. The only stuff I had trouble with is the memory flex tubing.

If you can pull the fittings off, I'd be wary about vacuum leaks, especially at high vacuum. If you have to pull off the fittings (if you can) or replace them, that is more labor that has to be factored into the equation.

[TunbridgeDave]

The quick tee has the same design as the seasonal spout with a very small rib on it. I'm not talking about using the 2 part system, that just introduces another fitting and another chance for leaks. That's the reason I don't like the stubby spout system. Like I said before, with the 30p tubing you can pull the tubing off the cdl spouts and the new quick tees without cuttting anything and I've never seen any leaks with the spouts, so I don't expect any with the tees. I want to make it easy to replace a drop line (tubing only) easily. I may not do them every year or every 2 years. There's always a few that get dirty and need replacing or at least washed. This is an experiment and I'm hoping it works out.

[jgrenier]

could someone tell me if there is a economic gain using the CV's when using a Zero vac tank insted of a relesser