Looking for Fall Tappers

[TheMapleNews]

Hi sugarmakers,

We want to do a story on fall tapping. We have found a couple folks doing test buckets. Anyone actually making significant syrup right now?

--Peter Gregg

[bairdswift]

Would love to hear more on this topic!!

[upsmapleman]

Check with patheron. He is up and running.

[heus]

Good to see The Maple News on here. I need to subscribe some time.

[spud]

It sounds like PaTheron is the one to talk to for sure. Branon's would be another. I would love to read more about Fall Tapping also.

Spud

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

Do Brannons tap every year in the fall? Also, which Brannon?

[Gary R]

Thanks for jumping on Maple News! I read it cover to cover as soon as I get. Always good information. I PM'd Theron. Hopefully we'll get the scoop:)

[ClarkFarmMapleSyrup]

Just filled out the subscription and having it sent out. Looking forward to reading the Maple News!

[spud]

Do Brannons tap every year in the fall? Also, which Brannon?

Not sure if they do but they did say a while back that they were going to continue fall tapping. I have some friends that are close to the Brannons and I plan to talk to them about fall tapping soon.

Spud

[TheMapleNews]

Thanks for the nice words everyone. We plan on spending some time here on MapleTrader. Great source for story ideas.

Checked in with Therron and will reach out to Brannons.

Thanks for the help.

[Timberwolf]

Not to take away from take away from Maple Trader, but we would like to see you on Sugarbush also.

[spud]

No Way to Sugarbush. That site is a cheap imitation of Trader. The moderators on Sugarbush are all disgruntle former Trader's. They are all envious of the success Trader has and would love to see the collapse of Trader so they could be number one. All the moderators of Sugarbush are members of Trader using other names to hide behind. It's kind of like a mom and pop store putting on fake mustache and shopping at Wal-Mart. There membership is very low (and not growing) although they do have some real nice helpful members. The funny part is the good members of Sugarbush are also members of Trader. So the question is why even have such a meaningless site when we already have the best here on TRADER. My vote is for Trader Only. I was a member of Sugarbush for a short while and got a kick on how the moderators kept building themselves up and patting themselves on the back. I cracked a joke and was kicked off. I never cared about getting kicked off because the site had little to offer compared to Trader. Just my two cents.

Spud

[CBOYER]

poor spud, if you get out of the other forum it is because you are an idiot, a racist, with a lot of prejudice against Quebecers.

[jimsudz]

Hey MapleNews, You might want to talk to Lyle Merle of Attica NY, he's talking about tapping some of his bush this fall. I know he has done so in the past,he wants a minimum of a two week freeze before he starts. He feels that without a good freeze the syrup lacks a true maple flavor.

[spud]

The temps are going up to high 40s low 50s next week in my area. It is going to be warm and rain for 3-4 days. I know this kind of weather is good in spring sugaring but will it be good in the fall? Hey PaTheron how many gallons are you now up to? What's your weather looking like for the week ahead?

Spud

[heus]

spud you are completely out of line and probably should be kicked off this site also for such inflammatory words.

[3rdgen.maple]

Im a former member? Geesh no one told me that! Good luck to the fall tappers, happy holidays and be safe to all. Hope everyone has a banner sap season no matter if you are a Maple Trader member, Sugarbush.info Member, Both or none. Smile lifes to short!

[spud]

Thanks for the advise. You sound like my wife.:) I am really not out to offend anyone and I really wish everyone the best at whatever they do. Maple Trader is a great site and I like being a part of it. If any of my opinions has offended anyone here on Trader or the other site then I am truly sorry. I will try to be more careful with my words in the future. As far as fall tapping goes I really have a big interest in this. I am finding it interesting to hear story's of people that are doing it and enjoying it. I hope people like PaTheron and others will keep sharing their experience with us. I am glad to see the Maple News people are taking an interest and now want to do a story on it. Just the thought of sugaring twice a year should get us all excited.

Spud

[CBOYER]

Spud, greats words comming from your mouth this morning. Very Happy to see that you are a real Maple Guy!
Go back to Fall Tapping, something we cannot do here with -15°c this morning...

[Jeff E]

I also am intested in this topic, and it is unfortunate that we have so many questions, and few answers.
I would think if you tap a tree in the fall, you better leave it alone the following spring.

It seems like 'double tapping' a tree would be to stressful on a tree. I wonder if Dr Perkins or others have done any research on this...I will do some digging on the web.

[DrTimPerkins]

It seems like 'double tapping' a tree would be to stressful on a tree.

Fall tapping has been something maple producers have tried time and time again. It never seems to stay around too long, but somebody always gives it a try every few years.

In the fall, trees are converting free sugars into starch for the winter, thus the sugar content tends to be lower than in the spring, when trees convert starches back into sugars to fuel new basal (stem), root and twig growth. But....if you've got an RO, that isn't too much of a problem, although, in general, one pass through a membrane is able to concentrate to only about 4.5X the initial sap concentration, so you're not going to be able to concentrate as high as you would in the spring.

Other issues that arise....buckets split or bags can break (we got down to near zero here in northern Vermont this morning). If you're on tubing....not as big a problem, except for perhaps any pipes/valves that aren't drained in the sugarhouse. At the end of the fall season....everything is frozen up, and now you've got to find a way to clean it went the temperatures are real low.

So really...no problem so far under the right conditions. Until we come to the issue of tree health. It is DEFINITELY NOT RECOMMENDED that you put two tapholes in a tree in one year (one in fall and one in spring) UNLESS they are two tap trees (18" diam or better), in which case you could either put in one hole in the fall and one in the spring, or do as most people do, put two tapholes in the tree in the spring. There is the possibility that you could create a small vacuum leak if the two tapholes were too close together.

Another possibility would involved reaming out the fall taphole in the spring. This actually has been tried and has been researched. It was the reason that 1/4" spouts were produced (back in 2008 when there was shortage of syrup and prices were very high some producers wanted to make syrup to capture the high prices....equipment manufacturers saw it as a way to sell another product). Unfortunately (as sometimes happens in the maple industry), the product was sold without there being much in the way of testing. As it turns out, tapping trees in the fall with 1/4" spouts and then reaming them to 5/16" just isn't terribly effective. Since a 5/16" bit is only 1/16" larger than a 1/4" bit, you're only removing 1/32" of wood from the inside of the old taphole, which is not enough to do much good. You may see a short-term burst of sap after reaming (so all looks good initially), but then it drops right off. Total yield of tapping in the fall plus reaming in the spring turns out to be about the same as tapping just in the spring. The only thing you accomplished was spreading the work out to a period twice as long.

So tapping in the fall and spring under most circumstances isn't something that would be helpful. In some limited circumstances, such as the case where you have a lot of two-tap trees and can't handle all the sap in the spring, or you just have too many trees to collect from at one time during the spring, then tapping some of them in the fall and some in the spring might be worthwhile. Otherwise, it probably isn't economical, particularly if you're paying for hired help.

I think someone mentioned the Branon's doing some fall tapping last year. I believe that is correct, and also believe I remember hearing Tom say that they probably wouldn't do it again, but don't hold me to that. I don't recall what the reason(s) was (were).

Then again, if you just want some fresh syrup for the holidays....go ahead and tap a few trees and make a quart of syrup on the stove. I think Bill Clark (long-time VMSMA President) used to try to make syrup around each New Year. Just don't tell your wife I said that it was OK to boil sap in the kitchen.

[WMF]

Another consideration to make before fall tapping is overall syrup quality. I was told by a very large syrup buyer that a lot of this fall syrup is just not quite "right" in comparison to the regular season syrup and he hoped this was not going to turn into a regular practice as he was the one tasked with using some of this syrup.

One year I tapped a woods the last week of December and while the woods produced sap from January to April, by March the tubing was noticably dirty and anytime the temp went above 35 or the sun came out the sap quality was poor in comparison to later tapped woods.

I came to the same conclusion as Dr. Tim, we made about the same amount of syrup from that woods as the later tapped ones but spread out the season to four months and the overall quality was not as good.

[ClarkFarmMapleSyrup]

I went out and tapped 3 taps into a very large sugar maple a few days ago, into a 2gal bucket... Checked it yesterday, and after tpicking up the bucket because it fell over :( I still had a little sap in it along with ice and the sap was sweet to me. Didnt test with hydrometer yet, but i think its running alittle today. I will let you all know how it turns out.

[spud]

Got up at 5:00am and it is already 38 degrees. I am in hopes of all our snow melting. My experiment trees should run for the next 3-4 days. We were below zero two nights ago so I know the trees froze hard. Hey PaTheron I am hoping you will make 500+ this fall. How is the weather in your neck of the woods?

Spud

[PATheron]

Spud- Im getting a run again now. Im probly about the same temp as you guys right now Id say. Its running pretty good and Im hoping to spend all day in the woods today fixing leaks. Theron

[TheMapleNews]

Hi folks,

I will check in with Lyle Merle. Great idea. Let us know if you hear of anyone else making syrup already.

--Peter Gregg

[ClarkFarmMapleSyrup]

I got about 2 gals of sap since last collection and it tested about 1.8. Last night I boiled the sap from first collection and even though it was only 22oz. of sap I tested 2.2 sugar. It made LIGHT syrup. I will see what tonights "boil" does.

[spud]

The sap ran a bit today but not much. The sun never came out but it was in the 40s. To date my big trees have 9.5 gallons per tap and my small trees have 3 gallons per tap. I plan to test sugar tomorrow to see if it went up after the cold spell we had.

Spud

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

next door neighbors brother tapped a few trees in Rochester VT. Guess he made a gallon last weekend or so. My neighbor said it tasted the same but his brother said it was definitely a different taste than Spring syrup. I'm not sure if he was just experimenting or he does this every year.

[DrTimPerkins]

... it was definitely a different taste than Spring syrup.

It hasn't been studied that I am aware of, but seems quite plausible that the taste is somewhat different. Probably a different suite of amino acids in fall sap than in spring sap.

[spud]

I noticed that the fall syrup I made tasted like carmel a little bit. It tasted real good and it was a med-amber. I thought the slight taste difference was because I cooked it in a turkey fryer but maybe it is something else. The sap ran about one gallon per tap so far today on the big trees.

Spud

[spud]

I am now up to 13.5 GPT on my big trees. The big trees are now only testing 1.4% and the small trees are still at 1%. The small trees are only at 3.5 GPT. Should I expect that big of a difference in GPT from big trees to small in the spring also?

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

I am now up to 13.5 GPT on my big trees. The big trees are now only testing 1.4% and the small trees are still at 1%. The small trees are only at 3.5 GPT. Should I expect that big of a difference in GPT from big trees to small in the spring also?

What sizes? Gravity or vacuum?

[spud]

What sizes? Gravity or vacuum?

Dr. Tim

Last year I had 100 taps that were all gravity. The 100 taps were made up of 50 large maple trees all 30+ inch. I wound up getting 2.6 times more out of my high vacuum trees then I did on the gravity trees.

This fall I tapped 3 very large maples (30+ inch) and 12 smaller maples (8 inch). What I have found out is the big trees were producing 4 times the sap. The big trees were also testing at 1.8% right up until the other day when they dropped to 1.4%

The smaller tree have been testing 1% all along and have not changed. The amount of sap I posted was 13.5 GPT for the big trees and 3.5GPT on the small trees. These amounts are after I multiplied the actual gallons by 2.6

This is no high tech study I can assure you. It does give me an idea as to what I might get if I was going to tap my whole woods in the fall. My woods is made up of 75% smaller trees (8-14 inches) My thought so far is it would not pay to tap any small tree for two reasons.

1- Very low sugar (1%)
2- Very small amount of sap per tree.

It would appear that tapping large maples (30 inch+) could make a person additional income. Although after reading one of your past post you mentioned reaming holes will not be very productive. The Brannon's said they went on to get a .4GPT in the spring after reaming their holes. This may not work for everyone though. I am taking a very big interest in the numbers PaTheron is posting on his fall tapping. I am hoping he gets at least .4GPT in the spring. If he does then fall tapping would be well worth it for him because he said .4GPT is about what he makes in spring time sugaring most years. Thank you Dr. Tim for helping all of us here on Trader with your words of wisdom. I think there is a lot of people that are interested in the possibilities of fall tapping but just not sure if it would pay to do it.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

...I think there is a lot of people that are interested in the possibilities of fall tapping but just not sure if it would pay to do it.

That is exactly the way people should be thinking about fall tapping....or any other change in their maple operation. If it doesn't result in an economic net profit, don't do it. There are lots of things we can do to improve sap yields, but it becomes a matter of diminishing returns, so sometimes that extra 0.5 gal/tap costs you more to get than you can get for the syrup. You want to do things that result in the biggest bang (net profit) for the buck.

At this point, I don't think there is enough information to say for sure one way or the other about fall tapping + spring reaming, but it certainly is worthy of further trials and research....and is probably more viable given that folks tend to be doing a whole lot better these days with taphole/tubing sanitation. Unfortunately, as it typical, it's going to take a while for the answers to be in. In the real long run, with climate change (regardless of what you think might be causing it), fall+spring tapping might be the way to go.

[bemer]

HI,
I tried it a few years ago and the taste was off. I gave up, but may try it again.
Reeming: I tried this also, but found drilling a new hole more productive. Last year I taped in early Jan, and redrilled in mid Feb, and ran till end of march. Really slow, but I got some. One bush did nothing.

[spud]

I may ream the trees I tapped this fall with 7/16 spouts just to see what they will do in the spring. I should have fall tapped with 1/4 spouts and then reamed to 5/16 I have already found that tapping small trees in the fall will not pay. The new test will be how will they run in the spring?

Spud

[rchase]

I may ream the trees I tapped this fall with 7/16 spouts just to see what they will do in the spring. I should have fall tapped with 1/4 spouts and then reamed to 5/16 I have already found that tapping small trees in the fall will not pay. The new test will be how will they run in the spring?

SpudIn the uvm study they said that the 1/4" to 5/16" reaming only worked for a couple runs. the bactria in the hole is in more then just in the surface of the hole and closes the pours of the wood up. this is what people call the hole "drying up".

[spud]

In the uvm study they said that the 1/4" to 5/16" reaming only worked for a couple runs. the bactria in the hole is in more then just in the surface of the hole and closes the pours of the wood up. this is what people call the hole "drying up".

I have read the same thing. Because there really is not a big difference between 1/4 to 5/16. I'm thinking that because I plan to ream the holes to the old style size of 7/16 I might have better results in production and longevity. Only time will tell but it is fun monkeying around seeing what works best.

Spud

[AdirondackSap]

All this talk of reaming tap holes and tapping in the fall wouldnt that just put more stress on the trees and more dead wood for sap. That seems like its over tapping you got a 10" diameter tree tapped in fall and spring in a a few years you wouldnt have any good wood to tap

[spud]

All this talk of reaming tap holes and tapping in the fall wouldnt that just put more stress on the trees and more dead wood for sap. That seems like its over tapping you got a 10" diameter tree tapped in fall and spring in a a few years you wouldnt have any good wood to tap

If you tapped a 10 inch tree twice a year (2 holes) then yes your right it would not be good for the tree. If you tap it once in the fall using a 1/4 spout and then ream that same hole in the spring using 5/16 it would not be much difference then just tapping it in the spring. Studies have shown that the small amount of sap taking out of a maple tree is not even a concern (tree health wise). I do know that in my woods the 8 inch trees are not even worth tapping in the fall due to a very small amount of sap that they give. I am waiting to see how trees of this size produce in the spring and what the sugar amount will be.

Spud

[spud]

The sap ran very well today and is still running. I am up to 16 GPT on the big trees and 4 GPT on the small trees. The sap tested at 1.6% today on the big trees and only 1% on the small trees.

Spud

[Thad Blaisdell]

now is this with 1/4 taps.... cant remember what you said you were doing..... thanks

[spud]

now is this with 1/4 taps.... cant remember what you said you were doing..... thanks

Thad,

I am using 5/16 spouts. The big trees will be reamed in the spring with the old style 7/16 just so I can see how much more sap they will give. I also want to check sugar content in the spring. I am not sure if I will ream the small trees and test them also. As of right now if I was going to fall tap I would only tap bigger trees (30 inch+). Small trees may run better in the fall in other places but not in my woods so far.

Spud

[Thad Blaisdell]

and this is on vacuum correct?

[spud]

and this is on vacuum correct?

Thad,

There is no vacuum to these trees. What I am doing is taking the amount of sap I get and times it by 2.6 The reason for this is because last spring I tapped 100 taps on gravity and they were all big trees. My main woods gave 2.6 GPT more on high vacuum then the trees on gravity. I feel by doing this I would have to be close to what I would get if I was running vacuum on these test trees. It would be impossible to know for sure how much GPT I got last spring from just my big trees on high vac. The best I can do at this point is base it on my whole woods average. This is not a high tech study going on here. I don't think Dr. Tim will be offering me a job anytime soon.:lol:

Spud

[Butcher]

That doesn't make sense if u only got 2.6 more gallons per tap. So if u got 26 gpt on vacuum and 23.4 on gravity that's maybe like 10% more. Unless im not understanding this correctly. U multiplied by 2.6 which is way more than 10%.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I believe you meat 2.6 times more sap.... is that right. sounds right.

[spud]

My wording was wrong on Gpt. What I got on the big trees so far this fall is 6.25 GPT. I take the 6.25 GPT and times it by 2.6 and then came up with 16.25 GPT. This is what I feel I would have gotten having used high vac.

Spud

[spud]

I checked my sap levels this morning and it must have run into the night for a spell. I am now up to 18.2 GPT on the big trees and 4.1 GPT on the small trees. The big trees tested at 1.6% I sure wish I had about 5000 big maples in my woods. So far this fall season the big trees are at .34 GPT in syrup. I am excited to see what these big trees will give me next spring with reamed out holes. If I could hit .75 GPT combining both fall and spring sap runs then I think the good Doctor should start calling me Sir. Spud:lol:

[spud]

I am hoping the sun comes out today and gives me a little more sap. I would love to get to 20GPT on my fall tapping experiment.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

.... I think the good Doctor should start calling me Sir. Spud

How about Sir Spud-alot? :D

If it were a true 0.75 gal/tap, I might just do that. However as I recall, you are estimating from gravity measurements what the volume "might" be on vacuum. If you had a bunch of years (instead of just the 2012 spring season -- which was fluky in many ways) to base those estimates on, I might accept it. So, to your earlier suggestion....no....not going to hire you yet, but definitely quite intriguing results.

[spud]

Dr. Tim,

Has PMRC ever studied sap amounts in big trees verse smaller trees? Not only spring sap but fall sap also. I do not ever remember seeing anything on your site about this topic. I no smaller maples can give a good amount of sap and I have talked to some here on Trader that can confirm that. I am wondering why my smaller trees gave far less sap the the big ones. Were talking 1/4 the amount of a big tree. Is it because of the crown size?

Spud