Newbie question re: divided pans

[Too Tall]

Hello,

I've read every post on this forum over the past month. Needless to say, I'm overwhelmed. This coming season I'll be boiling sap from 15 taps on a wood fired oil tank evaporator. I currently have holes cut into it for steam table pans but I am thinking I might be able to afford a larger pan with a draw-off.

One question (among many): How does a divided pan work? Say a 24 x 36 which has 1 divider in it. A back pan that is 24 x 18 and a front pan that is 24 x 18. I understand that cold (or preheated) sap is supposed to go in one end and flow through to the other section where it will eventually become almost syrup. But how does it work? It seems to me that once a good boil is going in both sections and I have a steady drip of new sap coming into the pan, that both sections would be boiling at about the same rate and both sections would turn to almost syrup about at the same time.

Also, next season I plan on stepping things up a bit and tapping 50 - 100 trees. Will a 24 x 36 divided pan still fit my needs in the future?

Lastly, do I even need a divided pan? Will a 24 x 36 flat pan work just as well for me?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[mathprofdk]

Hey there,

Welcome to the forum! I don't have a divided pan, but from my reading here, it's just a fluid dynamics thing - sap that enters will push the heaver syrup down the pans. So as long as fresh sap is always entering the system at the same point, the syrup will just naturally gradate.

I'm sure others (who actually have divided pans!) will chime in soon. Good luck!

~DK

[spencer11]

thats how a divided pan works, i dont think you need to spend the extra on a divided pan, or even that kind of pan for 15 taps, i would just use steam table pans, cause in my opinion a 2x3 pan will be to small for 50-100 taps, people do it but i wouldnt want to. if you plan to add a 2x3 flue pan or another pan to your rig in the future then i would say get it

[Too Tall]

OK thanks guys. So the colder sap displaces the warmer almost syrup? Does the pan need to be tilted a bit with the draw-off a little lower than the rear of the pan where the sap enters?

I think you've talked me out of a divided pan but I'm just curious. Thanks again.

[SevenCreeksSap]

Its not the temp its the density that makes it closer to syrup. and you want it level not tilted. as it changes density the thicker gets moved towards the draw off/ at 15 taps you may want to go with the steam pans but you will be boiling a lot on good sap days. just keep adding sap until your out then boil it until it is the right density. It'll boil faster if you can preheat your fresh sap on a pan on the back, or if you use several steam pans and ladle forward. that can help if you cant finish it all in one boil too so you dont thin it back out. try to search some of the homemade steam pan rigs here. if you go with the batch method a great book is Backyard sugaring by Rink Mann I think.

This site can be a little confusing for a starter because there are so many advanced people on here talking about the advanced methods. start simple and you'll figure out how to move forward. you wont be able to stop yourself.

[Too Tall]

This site can be a little confusing for a starter because there are so many advanced people on here talking about the advanced methods. start simple and you'll figure out how to move forward. you wont be able to stop yourself.


I can see myself progressing as you did. I did 2 taps last year, 15 this coming season and probably 50-100 next year. I have +/-300 possible on my property. I can't wait to get some experience this season then start prepping for 2014.

[spencer11]

like seven creek said dont tilt it, if you did it wouldnt work right. i would use 2 or 3-4"to 6" steam pans for 15 taps. i ran 2-2.5" deep pans in 2011 which was a very good year and i had to boil from 3 till 9 every day off the week after school cause i would get to much sap

[Ausable]

Howdy Too Tall - Welcome Aboard. So far - You have received some good advice. Batch boiling in a flat pan will work just fine for 15 or so trees. I Batch Boiled for years in a Flat Pan (about 30" x 30") and preheated sap in a couple of stainless pots on a 55 gallon barrel stove (flat top). Now I have a 250 gal Fuel Oil tank turned into an arch with a 2' x 5' steel pan divided into a 5 sections or compartments (2 Sap and 3 syrup) continuous flow evaporator (My Son and Grandson built it for me). I just have 55 taps and the flat pan worked ok - But - Now - Some family Members down in Bay County - haul up another 400 - 500 gals of Sap for me to boil - thus the need for the continuous flow evaporator. Some basics - Gotta be level - no matter what you boil on. Never let your pans go dry while boiling - they will badly scorch (maybe warp) and take a lot of work to get back into shape. Keep defoamer - oil or butter etc on hand to knock the foam down in a hurry if it looks like you a gonna have a boil over - couple of drops usually works. Get a Syrup Hydrometer and Cup to test your near syrup and know when you are getting there. Well -----I'll Stop here for now. I'm a Geezer and tend to go on and on. --- Too Tall - If ya need to know more about batch boiling or how a Continuous Flow Evaporator works I'd be happy to share with You. Making Maple Syrup is easy - Sap In a Pot - Boil the heck out of it - Know when it is done and remove from heat. - It is the getting there - that sometimes can get complicated. ---lol-------Mike------

[wiam]

FYI; Be very careful what you use for defoamer. Some people are very allergic to dairy and or other products. If you will be using for other than immediate family it is better not to use butter.

[Ausable]

FYI; Be very careful what you use for defoamer. Some people are very allergic to dairy and or other products. If you will be using for other than immediate family it is better not to use butter.

Now wiam - Your advice is good and as we both know - You can worry so much you never get around to boiling sap. Too Tall already said He is tapping 15 trees in 2013 and from experience I know he won't be competition for You yet. We can scare the Heck out of him later - right now he has to build up his confidence and make Maple. Heck - some Folks are allergic to Maple Syrup and gotta be careful not to put it on their pancakes - But----------Maple Syrup is Good ---LOL-- So lets encourage old Too Tall all we can. -------Mike-----

[Murphy's Law]

Hi Too Tall, I'm at about the same level of experience as you (I'm also too tall :))and I have plans to build a concrete block arch next month. I have drawn sketches for the arch and a 22"x39"x8" pan w/4 divider partitions @ 4.4" wide. I have 18 trees selected now and I have access to about 50+ more in the future. After reading many posts here I'm questioning my need for the 5 troughs in my pan design. Overkill?

I still do not fully understand the difference between sap pans and syrup pans.


FYI; Be very careful what you use for defoamer. Some people are very allergic to dairy and or other products. If you will be using for other than immediate family it is better not to use butter.
If butter is not the choice to use, what kind of oil do you recommend?

[DrTimPerkins]

I still do not fully understand the difference between sap pans and syrup pans.

In a divided pan system

Sap pan = back pan = Flue pan = typically a pan with flues (raised or drop) in which sap (or concentrate) enters the system. Typically makes up approximately 2/3 of the length of the total pan system, but because of the flues (which greatly increase the surface area for heating), contains a majority of the volume of liquid in an evaporator system. Most of the evaporation occurs in this portion of the pan system.

Syrup pan = front pan = flat pan = flat-bottomed pan (or series of pans in a cross-flow system) where partially-concentrated sap from the flue pan enters, and which syrup is removed from. May consist of one larger flat pan divided into partitions (typical in reverse-flow pans), or several smaller interconnected pans (typical in cross-flow pans) that are sometimes divided into partitions.

[wiam]

Now wiam - Your advice is good and as we both know - You can worry so much you never get around to boiling sap. Too Tall already said He is tapping 15 trees in 2013 and from experience I know he won't be competition for You yet. We can scare the Heck out of him later - right now he has to build up his confidence and make Maple. Heck - some Folks are allergic to Maple Syrup and gotta be careful not to put it on their pancakes - But----------Maple Syrup is Good ---LOL-- So lets encourage old Too Tall all we can. -------Mike-----

NOT trying to scare anyone. Just stating facts to keep everyone safe. I do not care about competition. If some one gets sick from tainted maple we all look bad.

[wiam]

Wood loader, I use commercial defoamer available at any maple supplier. I believe organic producers use safflower oil but I have heard it does not work as well.

[Ausable]

Hello Murphy's Law and Too Tall - first off - Listen to Dr. Tim - 99% of the time His advice is very good. I hold back 1% because he is a human.
Defoamers - I use a commercial defoamer most of the time - but you always keep it in a warm place - or when you really need it - the darn stuff is a solid in the bottle - when it is in a liquid state a few drops works. Keep a backup on hand - gosh butter, olive oil. cream, about anything oily (sorry wiam - Backyarders are animals) -----As a backyarder not worried about killing paying customers - when you get serious foaming going on - get it under control fast - or you will have a mess. ---Not really a big deal if you catch it. Ok - Ya know about batch boiling - I go with two inches of sap in my batch pan and boil away - it gets down about an inch - I bring it back up with hot sap from a preheater pan or pot. You keep this up till ya run out of sap or get bored with boiling and let it boil down till you start getting a little edgy about the level - If you are near syrup the bubbles get big and shiny - test with a syrup hydrometer - chances are your are getting in the near syrup stage. I would pour it off into a smaller pan - like a restaurant steam pan or stainless pot and finish it down to syrup in this - I use a turkey fryer burner for my heat source to finish. Enough about Batch Boiling - unless you have some questions. -----Mike----

[Ausable]

OK - We decided that with all the trees we are now tapping - Batch Boiling is too slow and there has to be another way. There is - It is called the Continuous Flow Evaporator. Dr. Tim was explaining some of the different types and there are several and improved efficiency over the years is the reason for the various designs. But - so ya understand how they work - I'll explain my rig - about as simple as a continuous flow evaporator gets and it works. My Arch or heat source is from a 250 gal fuel oil tank - but - now we are talking continuous flow evaporators. to keep it simple - picture a large flat pan 2' x 5'. Now we are going to devide this pan into sections that are interconnected so you can have a flow - section to section. In the back - toward the stack - we have two Sap Sections (or pans) 12" x 24" each. toward the front (where we add fuel to the arch) we have 3 Syrup Sections 8" x 36' each. When you first fire up - all the sap is cold and at the same level cause all the sections are interconnected with small openings. (so you get a serpentine flow effect). On the first Sap pan I add sap from my feed tank (located outside) through a tube and a small valve to my first sap section and at my last syrup section I have a draw off valve. So now we begin - we start with cold sap on first boil throughout the pans or sections. about 2 or 3 inches of sap and we boil like with a batch pan - and boil some more and as we steam away the level starts to drop and here is where it gets different. We get a trickle of sap going through our little sap feed valve to maintain our overall level (a nicer setup would use a float valve for this) and keep boiling and boiling and adding sap. Now if you scoop a little liquid from your last syrup section you will see it is getting darker and sweeter - even though it is pretty much sap at you first sap section where you add sap. As you progress and have a boil in all the sections - you will notice the large shiny bubbles in your syrup sections - draw some off from the last syrup section into a test cup and see how close you are with a hydrometer. I know guys that draw off finished syrup from their drawoff valve - I'm not that good. Close to syrup but not quite there. So You keep adding sap at one end and drawing off near syrup at the other. Continuous Flow! I left a whole lot of stuff out and I'm not pretending this is all there is to it - But - I wanted You to understand the basics of a Continuous Flow Evaporator - Hope I helped some. -----Mike-----

[Too Tall]

Mike and Dr. Tim (and everyone else)

Thanks for the insight. It's all making a little more sense. I think this year I'll run my 2 steam table pans and a couple preheater pans on my oil arch. I've already got big plans to redo the oil tank next year based on some of the designs I've seen on the forum. At that point I'll probably go with a larger batch pan with a preheater.

[Murphy's Law]

Mike and Dr. Tim (and everyone else) - thank you for taking the time to educate us new guys. I really appreciate it. As you know, many experienced folks with very good intentions tend to throw in a word here and there or a concept that completely baffles the new people. Once that happens the new person is sorta lost the rest of the way through the explanation.